Glickenhaus Says Its Cars Won't Appear in Gran Turismo Unless Sony Pays "a Fair Royalty"

[McLaren]

Is this a company that even does marketing? If not, I feel this is even more of a sign that clearly its not exactly chasing big time OEM sales figures or Typical Supercar numbers and even more so is less reliant on gaming as a medium of exposure.

It's not, really. Jim comes across as a passionate (but probably a bit rough in approach; feathers have been ruffled elsewhere) guy who wants to push the automotive world with new ideas & doesn't seem to let the fact he's not some big, house hold name stop him from the various cars he's trying to produce. I think as of now, a lot of his work is still in developing & testing his vehicles. I know he's been pushing them in various race events to cement their capabilities like the Nurburgring 24H & the Baja 1000, and I recall he's trying to get a new car into LeMans, so much of what one might see him sharing are his prototypes. But, there's been reports he's filled order sheets & his cars are going to be low-volume tier cars that can be tailored & sold out easily, so I believe his production line doesn't appear to be starved for buyers.

Therefore, I think there's a bit of misguided thoughts in here thinking GT will give any kind of exposure (or sales) to SCG that Jim isn't already working on himself.

 

[Tricky Vega]

How many people that are customers of
McLaren, Ferrari, Bugatti, Lamborghini, have not played Gran Turismo or bought a PS4?

Never mind potential customers. GT is not a prerequisite to buy expensive limited production vehicles.

Wasn't there a spat about manufacturers cars showing damage in GT? Why was damage allowed in other games but GT?

I'm just patiently waiting to read what Jim has to say about all this.

It is not a matter of cars' sales directly from players' opinion, it is a matter of reality's représentation.

Glickenhaus is a special case as it is mainly a racecars' manufacturer (a bit like Pescarolo in GT 6) and is going to have a major part in endurance (GT3 and WEC).

I'm really expecting Polyphony Digital to make their starting grid looking like what we have in the real world.

And I insist on the fact that Glickenhaus will be the only one of the two manufacturers to enter the WEC Hypercar class for its first season versus Toyota.
And yet for a matter of motorsports' realism for the coming years, Glickenhaus has to be introduced into Gran Turismo 7.

 

[05XR8]

It is not a matter of cars' sales directly from players' opinion, it is a matter of reality's représentation.

Glickenhaus is a special case as it is mainly a racecars' manufacturer (a bit like Pescarolo in GT 6) and is going to have a major part in endurance (GT3 and WEC).

I'm really expecting Polyphony Digital to make their starting grid looking like what we have in the real world.

And I insist on the fact that Glickenhaus will be the only one of the two manufacturers to enter the WEC Hypercar class for its first season versus Toyota.
And yet for a matter of motorsports' realism for the coming years, Glickenhaus has to be introduced into Gran Turismo 7.

I'm not talking about car sales. Simply, have any of those real customers of the brands I mentioned, bought a PS4 and Gran Turismo with their own money, for their own time to play? Not even talking about if they even do/don't play a PC Sim.

About a real grid, PD had that opportunity with Manufacturer Sport Mode. Instead, there are half fictional, half real cars on any one Manufacturer Cup grid.

With standard road cars, we usually have "real" grids. When or comes to race cars, GT have always had a fictional grid. Maybe majority of real race cars, but some fictional cars sprinkled in.

PD aren't known for getting whole real world grids. NASCAR was the closest we've ever seen in the franchise.

 

[Tricky Vega]

I'm not talking about car sales. Simply, have any of those real customers of the brands I mentioned, bought a PS4 and Gran Turismo with their own money, for their own time to play? Not even talking about if they even do/don't play a PC Sim.

About a real grid, PD had that opportunity with Manufacturer Sport Mode. Instead, there are half fictional, half real cars on any one Manufacturer Cup grid.

With standard road cars, we usually have "real" grids. When or comes to race cars, GT have always had a fictional grid. Maybe majority of real race cars, but some fictional cars sprinkled in.

PD aren't known for getting whole real world grids. NASCAR was the closest we've ever seen in the franchise.

Yes obsviously, this is one among several troubles with Gran Turismo.

What I mean is that Gran Turismo can only be better and richer with Glickenhaus' cars than without. And we are not talking here of Miatas, Beetles or 500s.

Both parties should find reasonable terms of agreement, it'd be fine for everyone.

 

[05XR8]

Yes obsviously, this is one among several troubles with Gran Turismo.

What I mean is that Gran Turismo can only be better and richer with Glickenhaus' cars than without. And we are not talking here of Miatas, Beetles or 500s.

Both parties should find reasonable terms of agreement, it'd be fine for everyone.

As GT fans, I'm sure many of us agree. Thing is, Kaz has mentioned they sometimes don't reach out or even realise Manufacturers have reached out to them(I think there is an interview with Kaz, about that, in one of these threads).

A video circulated about Kaz reaching out to Ruf. What deal did Kaz and Alois agree to to make that happen? Must have been fair, for the brand to return to the series, with a "new" car after 20 years.

I'll bring up Spa-Francorchamps again. No doubt PD heard the fans. We got the track. Another thing is the amount of exposure the rack gets in the 2.0 Opening Movie. Also, Spa featured with the Mazda RX-VISION TT. It's also got a Scapes slot(Bathurst, Suzuka, Brands Hatch don't even have one).

So, terms & conditions, all that legal stuff, I don't know what's involved along with "How much?".

 

[George Jakob]

I can think of about a thousand cars I would rather have than Glickenhaus. And it’s not as if the production at PD grinds to a halt until they have secured a Glickenhaus license. If we can’t get Glickenhaus we’ll get other cars instead.

Of course SCG was just an example you can insert any of the brands we haven't got yet in its place.

 

[Auditore]

Lotus recently said they hope to reappear in Gran Turismo soon. Combined with this news I’m starting to get the impression that PD are tough negotiators. Spa semminly also took a while to secure for GT Sport.

It’s ultimately good when racing game developers don’t let the licensors push them around, because these games are like interactive advertizements. I hope some manufacturers actually recognize this and pay developers to showcase their assets.

I would imagine they are more ruthless with deals because people ask a bigger price from them compared to a lesser known sim racer.At least that's my guess.

 

[Kiki_Haoru]

I really dislike the "what's in it for me?" Approach.
When You are offered the opportunity to have your car/product featured in a massively successful franchise and do not see the upside to it unless it comes with a large amount of money, I think you cannot call yourself a man of passion.

It is pretty obvious that the impact on their sales would be 0 since their sales are already so close to 0... But the publicity can still be positive for their general appeal. And as stated before, who knows what the GTS players will buy in 10-15 years.
They are planning to release a baja Buggy that seems more abordable than their supercars and it can be a good way to advertise IMO.

 

[MatskiMonk]

I think you cannot call yourself a man of passion.

Maybe he's passionate about cars and racing, not computer games.

 

[sesven]

Maybe he's passionate about cars and racing, not computer games.

Nobody is saying he should be? The connection people are making is that there are many other people who are a fan of both.

From what I'm reading the two lines of thought here are: Public perception matters. and Public perception is irrelevant. I believe it does matter, simply the fact that Jordan can get an interview with him for a racing sim website is in defense of that. Let alone how many professional racers driving real cars in real races have a strong connection to sim racing. Maybe not GT Sport specifically, but a connection to the industry none the less. Even current Formula 1 drivers, so the idea "It's just a computer game" is a bit of an archaic mind set.

Before the pendulum strikes me again I should clarify that I don't think sim racing has a "big" impact on real world racing and manufactures, I'm just making the defense that it has "some"

 

[MatskiMonk]

Nobody is saying he should be?

Nor was I suggesting they did. Kiki_harou suggested he wasn't a man of passion because he prioritises his business building sportscars and going racing over what gamers want... I was simply highlighting that difference.

 

[05XR8]

I really dislike the "what's in it for me?" Approach.
When You are offered the opportunity to have your car/product featured in a massively successful franchise and do not see the upside to it unless it comes with a large amount of money, I think you cannot call yourself a man of passion.

It is pretty obvious that the impact on their sales would be 0 since their sales are already so close to 0... But the publicity can still be positive for their general appeal. And as stated before, who knows what the GTS players will buy in 10-15 years.
They are planning to release a baja Buggy that seems more abordable than their supercars and it can be a good way to advertise IMO.

There are manufacturers that haven't received any offers though. The most recent were a low volume brand(I forget, Bertone?- not sure). They would like to be in the game, bur PD haven't responded to them.

Even here https://www.gtplanet.net/car-manufacturers-want-to-know-what-cars-you-buy-in-gt-sport/ Kaz says more manufacturers are requesting be put in the game.
It could explain why the game intially only had cars later than 2009.

We can clearly see from some members' posts, they never heard of SCG. That's no fault of the game or SCG marketing. How many members are interested in real race series? What series do they watch, when they watch racing? What type of cars interest members here?

How many members here, that have not played GT1-GT6, have heard of Vector, Venturi, Gillet, Lister, Ginetta? How many members actually look through the Suggestions->Cars threads and actually vote?

 

[seco46]

And they call Asphalt and CSR "sim racing"..

Thats steep even on gran turismo fan standarts.

No, they call Assetto Corsa in that part.

So PD needs to hire Marco Massarutto or what?

 

[ShiftingGears]

Some of you are acting like its a crime for Glickenhaus to do what he thinks maximises the revenue for his business. He doesn't owe you or Polyphony Digital anything.

PD doesn't owe him anything either, if they can't agree on a figure where they both get value, then no Glickenhaus in GT7.

 

[McLaren]

I really dislike the "what's in it for me?" Approach.
When You are offered the opportunity to have your car/product featured in a massively successful franchise and do not see the upside to it unless it comes with a large amount of money, I think you cannot call yourself a man of passion.

A man puts all his work into making a new company & he's just supposed to let a racing developer model & use his work for free whilst they openly negotiate deals with other manufacturers? All so that in some rare chance, a GT player actually buys one of his cars whilst said developer makes some kind of profit using his cars to boost interest for their title?

It is pretty obvious that the impact on their sales would be 0 since their sales are already so close to 0... But the publicity can still be positive for their general appeal. And as stated before, who knows what the GTS players will buy in 10-15 years.
They are planning to release a baja Buggy that seems more abordable than their supercars and it can be a good way to advertise IMO.

Except their sales aren't 0 & that assumption highlights a reoccurring issue in this thread. I asked an insider back in June 2019 how the SCG003 was doing; it was reported back Jim had 5 cars in production. Mind you it's a $2 million+ race car built for the street & they're aware it will be very low in production numbers. The current factory in New York can only maintain around 1-car a month.

The Baja Buggy 2-door sold out its 5 units for the 1st year & they will be bringing its 4-door variant out next year.

SCG004 orders are already in & the team has the 004C race car now going through testing to further develop it.

SCG007 should be finished & start testing this month.

These are not exciting numbers on paper, but this is a company with a super-small production team. It is not a big facility, but they have been working on getting it up & running for the 004 line with some setbacks earlier in the year.

This is a company still early in its time of building actual production cars & putting a huge amount of focus into racing first to influence said cars.

 

[MatskiMonk]

How many members here, that have not played GT1-GT6, have heard of Vector, Venturi, Gillet, Lister, Ginetta?

As a BTCC fan I'm well aware of Ginetta... I hadn't realised they'd ever been in Gran Turismo!

 

[TonyJZX]

PD doesn't owe him anything either, if they can't agree on a figure where they both get value, then no Glickenhaus in GT7.

I'd say many of us dont give a crap about this brand... there's a slew of brands that dont have much meaning in reality.

I think we like the brands where the team principal seems like a decent guy... Christian Von Koenigsegg and Horatio Pagani seem to be decent passionate guys when given the opportunity to promote their cars even though these cars are for the 0.1% on this planet.

So when you're not a giant douche canoe on camera or on the web AND your cars are interesting well then you can see why people like your products.

Some people like Hennessey products. I'm ambivalent. The guy seems to have a shady past. That reflects on what he's selling today.

So for me, his cars dont matter to me, nor do I care about them in GT or Forza.

Let's go further. I'm ok with Volvo but I realise this Chinese owned Swede is a niche player in the world. I have no interest in their real life cars nor do I care if they are in any game. I have no interesting in driving or owning them.

Do I care that they are missing overall? Not really. But even so, their historical backlog means they do have a lot of significant cars. The 240 the 740, the P1800, the STCC cars. I like them to be here but if they're not I wont miss them that much.

 

[Tricky Vega]

I'd say many of us dont give a crap about this brand... there's a slew of brands that dont have much meaning in reality.

I think we like the brands where the team principal seems like a decent guy... Christian Von Koenigsegg and Horatio Pagani seem to be decent passionate guys when given the opportunity to promote their cars even though these cars are for the 0.1% on this planet.

So when you're not a giant douche canoe on camera or on the web AND your cars are interesting well then you can see why people like your products.

Some people like Hennessey products. I'm ambivalent. The guy seems to have a shady past. That reflects on what he's selling today.

So for me, his cars dont matter to me, nor do I care about them in GT or Forza.

Let's go further. I'm ok with Volvo but I realise this Chinese owned Swede is a niche player in the world. I have no interest in their real life cars nor do I care if they are in any game. I have no interesting in driving or owning them.

Do I care that they are missing overall? Not really. But even so, their historical backlog means they do have a lot of significant cars. The 240 the 740, the P1800, the STCC cars. I like them to be here but if they're not I wont miss them that much.

As long as Scuderia Cameron Glickenhaus wants to defeat Toyota at Le Mans, and will try to hire Sebastian Vettel to do so :
I will support that manufacturer despite its owner's attitude.

For that reason I'd really like to have some Glickenhaus cars in Gran Turismo 7, and specifically the SCG 007.

 

[redhed17]

I really dislike the "what's in it for me?" Approach.
When You are offered the opportunity to have your car/product featured in a massively successful franchise and do not see the upside to it unless it comes with a large amount of money, I think you cannot call yourself a man of passion.

It is nice to not always have the attitude of what is in it to me as an individual, but as a business you have to be a bit more selfish, especially with your intellectual properties. If PD were giving away millions of copies of games then negotiating a deal to let your cars be in the games for nothing makes sense, but when a game sells for what, lets say £40 to even it out a bit over time, and you sell 8+ million games, I don't think anyone should be doing things for free. That's about £320m, plus the revenue Sony make from people with PSN accounts just for GT. Licences have value, even if not monetary, but also how and where your brand is shown.

Now I don't know how the industry works. Does the maker of more popular games pay more for licences, or is there an industry standard, or something close to it. Is money paid in relation to sales, or as a set fee.

It will be interesting to see the interview with James Glickenhaus to hear what he says, and maybe is able to say because of NDA'a, about how things work, and the interaction with PD.

About a real grid, PD had that opportunity with Manufacturer Sport Mode. Instead, there are half fictional, half real cars on any one Manufacturer Cup grid.

With standard road cars, we usually have "real" grids. When or comes to race cars, GT have always had a fictional grid. Maybe majority of real race cars, but some fictional cars sprinkled in.

If you replicate a championship with the right cars, maybe even at the right tracks, do you run the risk of breaching an organisations copyright, licence, intellectual property, or whatever! There is value to the F1, TOCA, NASCAR licences after all.

 

[Tricky Vega]

If you replicate a championship with the right cars, maybe even at the right tracks, do you run the risk of breaching an organisations copyright, licence, intellectual property, or whatever! There is value to the F1, TOCA, NASCAR licences after all.

I think Polyphony Digital should go further in the partnership with the FIA for Sport mode, with GT4and GT3 championships and the WEC.

And that's specifically here that a deal with Scuderia Cameron Glickenhaus would make sens.

 

[MatskiMonk]

Now I don't know how the industry works. Does the maker of more popular games pay more for licences, or is there an industry standard, or something close to it. Is money paid in relation to sales, or as a set fee.

I don't know for a fact about how it works in this industry, but granting license for something is effectively a negotiation followed by a contract. Some companies may have standard contracts, but I'd be surprised if it doesn't always involve some form of negotiation, and really that's going to come down to what each side has, and what they have to gain. I'd guess it can be very simple for some manufacturers, and it may get very complex for others.

Ultimately, we don't know the sums of money SCG and PD have discussed. If PD are offering a fraction of what SCG have received for other deals, then Jim's position is understable. If Jim's expecting the same payment Ferrari get, then PD's position would be understandable. SCG aren't going to sell any more cars either way, and the inclusion, or not, of SCG is unlikely to affect the number of copies of the game sold.

 

[kjeldsen]

Some companies are worth paying for, others should take the free advertising and enjoy it..

 

[redhed17]

I don't know for a fact about how it works in this industry, but granting license for something is effectively a negotiation followed by a contract. Some companies may have standard contracts, but I'd be surprised if it doesn't always involve some form of negotiation, and really that's going to come down to what each side has, and what they have to gain. I'd guess it can be very simple for some manufacturers, and it may get very complex for others.

Ultimately, we don't know the sums of money SCG and PD have discussed. If PD are offering a fraction of what SCG have received for other deals, then Jim's position is understable. If Jim's expecting the same payment Ferrari get, then PD's position would be understandable. SCG aren't going to sell any more cars either way, and the inclusion, or not, of SCG is unlikely to affect the number of copies of the game sold.

There will always be negotiations, and both sides will be bringing something to the table, what I was trying to say earlier was that for certain tier manufacturers, Honda, Toyota, Subaru, Ford, the everyday car brands, you would think, make similar deals, with maybe specific deals for specific cars, the Ford or the Toyota Le Mans cars. The higher level brands would probably have different deals, the Ferrari, Porsche, Pagani, and probably deals again for specific cars. Hyundai will probably not get the same deal as Ferrari. The manufacturers probably have a good idea of the deals other companies get, and will negotiate with that knowledge. Glickenhaus may be coming into negotiations with an idea of what they are worth based on what other brands are getting, and it may be who they consider themselves on a level with that may be the problem. Maybe they just want a certain amount regardless of whatever else anyone else gets. How those talks go determines what the final result is, in this case, up to now, no deal.

Like I said earlier, I wouldn't know one of their cars if I tripped over it, and so would not miss them in GT7. The only reason you tell people you're not in a game is to have a dig at the game maker, and get some publicity in the process. I don't remember it, but did Porsche ever say why they were not in earlier GT games!

 

[05XR8]

As a BTCC fan I'm well aware of Ginetta... I hadn't realised they'd ever been in Gran Turismo!

Yessir. The classic G4 is in GT4.

It is nice to not always have the attitude of what is in it to me as an individual, but as a business you have to be a bit more selfish, especially with your intellectual properties. If PD were giving away millions of copies of games then negotiating a deal to let your cars be in the games for nothing makes sense, but when a game sells for what, lets say £40 to even it out a bit over time, and you sell 8+ million games, I don't think anyone should be doing things for free. That's about £320m, plus the revenue Sony make from people with PSN accounts just for GT. Licences have value, even if not monetary, but also how and where your brand is shown.

Now I don't know how the industry works. Does the maker of more popular games pay more for licences, or is there an industry standard, or something close to it. Is money paid in relation to sales, or as a set fee.

It will be interesting to see the interview with James Glickenhaus to hear what he says, and maybe is able to say because of NDA'a, about how things work, and the interaction with PD.

If you replicate a championship with the right cars, maybe even at the right tracks, do you run the risk of breaching an organisations copyright, licence, intellectual property, or whatever! There is value to the F1, TOCA, NASCAR licences after all.

The WRC and NASCAR licences weren't utilised to the maximum. Even having Jeff Gordon's likeness couldn't help the category in the franchise. Also adding updated cars didn't improve the racing. PD probably needed to do more research.

 

[George Jakob]

I really dislike the "what's in it for me?" Approach.
When You are offered the opportunity to have your car/product featured in a massively successful franchise and do not see the upside to it unless it comes with a large amount of money, I think you cannot call yourself a man of passion.

It is pretty obvious that the impact on their sales would be 0 since their sales are already so close to 0... But the publicity can still be positive for their general appeal. And as stated before, who knows what the GTS players will buy in 10-15 years.
They are planning to release a baja Buggy that seems more abordable than their supercars and it can be a good way to advertise IMO.

Lets be honest passion does 🤬 all for a business and its not like the money go straight to his pockets he uses said money to run the racing team .
As for the "opprtunity" of getting featured in GT ill use Alpine an example . Alpine has been featured in a lot of games but have you seen how many people didn't know it was a legit media on social media posts about the Renault F1 team rebranding announcement? Its actually depressing.

 

[Stoop Solo]

Perhaps PD should have paid more and added his GT3 car into GTsport instead of adding a fiat 500 and a few other cars that have nothing to do with motorsport.

The GT series of course being famous for never including everyday cars.

 

[ScottPuss20]

Some companies are worth paying for, others should take the free advertising and enjoy it..

Look at the exposure RUF, Pagani, Gillet, Hommel, Mines and Pescarolo got. If it wasn't for their inclusion in Gran Turismo, millions of people would still be unaware of them today. Glickenhaus is stupid not to get in on this. The exposure will yield more than just extra sales to their existing clients.

 

[PoSM]

I would personally like it if companies like Rebellion Racing Jackie Chan Oreca from recent Le Mans were here but many people have no affinity to modern prototypes so...

Coincidentally, the biggest film that Glickenhaus has ever made was Jackie Chan's 'The Protector'

As for the argument itself, I see the old 'we can't pay you but you'll get massive exposure' argument all the time with artists and musicians and it's usually a load of horse****, allowing someone to make money off someone else's hard work.

However, in this case I find myself on the other side of the fence. SCG have built their cars to satisfy a small customer base to whom they are charging accordingly. Their work is already done. Polyphony Digital then have to do all the heavy lifting in terms of creating realistic digital versions of the cars which SCG can then capitalise on by marketing t-shirts, key-rings and other merch to a massive customer base who would never dream of being able to be able to afford an actual SCG car.

The fact that Jim Glickenhaus doesn't have the business acumen to be able to see that this isn't a zero-sum game and that both parties can benefit explains why his career as a movie producer has resulted in films like 'Frankenhooker' and 'Basket Case 3: The Progeny' instead of 'Avatar' or the 'Avengers'

 

[05XR8]

Look at the exposure RUF, Pagani, Gillet, Hommel, Mines and Pescarolo got. If it wasn't for their inclusion in Gran Turismo, millions of people would still be unaware of them today. Glickenhaus is stupid not to get in on this. The exposure will yield more than just extra sales to their existing clients.

Look at the exposure he's just got in a couple days. and didn't have to be put in the game.

 

[PoSM]

What financial benefit does SCG receive from being in Gran Turismo, other than licensing fees?

I've been watching the Tour De France and am excited to see that McLaren are sponsoring a team this year. Now I'll never be able to afford a P1 or even a 650S* but 95 quid for a cycling jersey from the McLaren store? Yeah, I can stretch to that.



*ok maybe if I didn't keep buying over-priced t-shirts I might be able to...