Global Warming/Climate Change Discussion Thread

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Which of the following statements best reflects your views on Global Warming?


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Hey, I think I found the reason for global warming. My Dyson vaccuum. Damn! THat thing pumps out air at at least 150 degrees! And what about all the heat coming from everything that's burning? Just suggesting stuff, but maybe all these "unnatural" (problem is we are here, so it is natural, we just are aware of it, so we call it unnatural) flames and sources of heat actually have added heat into the atmosphere. THe whole conservation of mass/energy would work because we sucked up all the oil and turned it into a few different gases and a lot of heat. Right?
I have no idea how plausible this idea is, but since I've never heard a scientist speaking of it I'd guess they ruled it out a while ago. I don't think it would work.
 
OGLE B
Looks like some one agrees with you Famine:

There IS a problem with global warming... it stopped in 1998

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2006/04/09/do0907.xml&sSheet=/news/2006/04/09/ixworld.html

The guy is from the UK though, so.....

JK :)

Judge for yourself: http://www.cru.uea.ac.uk/cru/info/warming/

I could understand it if that article was a tongue in cheek joke aimed at extreme environmentalists and their "one hurricanes proves global warming" mindset, but that article peddles what it puts forward as thoughtful objective analysis. It is far from that. It is plagued with more deception, logical incoherency and general scientific ignorance than the environmentalists put forward.

Take the first paragraph:
Consider the simple fact, drawn from the official temperature records of the Climate Research Unit at the University of East Anglia, that for the years 1998-2005 global average temperature did not increase. In response to these facts, a global warming devotee will chuckle and say "how silly to judge climate change over such a short period".

That is a strawman. The error this opinion article makes has nothing to do with "judging climate change" over a short period. The error is to pretend 1998 is a normal year rather than the el nino year it was. If you account for that anonomly then indeed temperatures have been increasing since 1998.

This is precisely why he chooses 1998 as the year to start the trend. It was no accident that he picked this specific 8 year trend. He omitted to mention that without 1998 being so extreme the trend is warming. Maybe he just didn't know right?

Well according to this page http://timlambert.org/2005/05/bobcarter3/:

Last year, global warming denialist Bob Carter wrote a Tech Central Station article where he claimed that satellite measurements "show little or no long-term trend of temperature change."

I emailed him to point that the satellites actually showed significant warming. He replied that this didn’t count because: "this trend is most likely produced by the single exceptionally warm 1998 El Nino year."


Yet in the next breath, the same person will assure you that the 28-year-long period of warming which occurred between 1970 and 1998 constitutes a dangerous (and man-made) warming.

The "same person" is totally justified in pointing out that a 28-year-long period of warming between 1970 and 1998. Whether this is "man-made" or "dangerous" has nothing to do with the authors analogy which is simply about a trend. If the author of this opinion article can show the 28-year long trend is only the result of a single year, like his own was, then he might have a point. But he can't, and he doesn't.

Tosh. Our devotee will also pass by the curious additional facts that a period of similar warming occurred between 1918 and 1940, well prior to the greatest phase of world industrialisation, and that cooling occurred between 1940 and 1965, at precisely the time that human emissions were increasing at their greatest rate.

pretending that these periods are being ignored or "passed by". Even a quick reading in to this matter will show that the current hypothesis is that "global dimming" due to increased aerosol pollution caused a cooling effect. Between 1940 and 1980 this cooling countered warming. Since aerosol levels have dropped it no longer does.

Does something not strike you as odd here? That industrial carbon dioxide is not the primary cause of earth's recent decadal-scale temperature changes doesn't seem at all odd to many thousands of independent scientists. They have long appreciated - ever since the early 1990s, when the global warming bandwagon first started to roll behind the gravy train of the UN Inter-governmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) - that such short-term climate fluctuations are chiefly of natural origin.

The same "thousands of scientists already know" argument that creationists use.

The problem here is not that of climate change per se, but rather that of the sophisticated scientific brainwashing that has been inflicted on the public, bureaucrats and politicians alike. Governments generally choose not to receive policy advice on climate from independent scientists. Rather, they seek guidance from their own self-interested science bureaucracies and senior advisers, or from the IPCC itself. No matter how accurate it may be, cautious and politically non-correct science advice is not welcomed in Westminster, and nor is it widely reported.

Exactly the same flavor of rhetoric the creationists make - that that governments only take advice on what to teach in schools from their own self-interested science bureaucracies (in grant funded colleges all over the land). No matter how accurate evolution may be, critics are not welcomed they argue.

Perhaps the reason "independant" critics are so independant is because their knowledge of the science is not up to scratch to be employed. Anyhow I recall the US government did take science advice from "independant" author micheal crichton. Certainly the author provides no way to distinguish this situation from being any different than the creationist-evolution issue.

First, most government scientists are gagged from making public comment on contentious issues, their employing organisations instead making use of public relations experts to craft carefully tailored, frisbee-science press releases. Second, scientists are under intense pressure to conform with the prevailing paradigm of climate alarmism if they wish to receive funding for their research. Third, members of the Establishment have spoken declamatory words on the issue, and the kingdom's subjects are expected to listen.

Exactly the same arguments creationists make. The plot thickens...
 
Except for the fact that creationists never have any factual information to back up their claims except for the Bible. The plot thickens...
 
Zrow
Except for the fact that creationists never have any factual information to back up their claims except for the Bible. The plot thickens...

Sure they do, it's just that the factual information they point out doesn't really back up their claims. For example "there's no way a fish can give birth to a human". 100% factual yet 100% irrelevant.
 
Wow, there's a whole thread for the evolution/creation debate and somhow it got dragged into this thread. :boggled:

Let's keep it on topic.
 
bobnsmith
Sure they do, it's just that the factual information they point out doesn't really back up their claims. For example "there's no way a fish can give birth to a human". 100% factual yet 100% irrelevant.

This is highly off-topic. The global warming debate is between people with charts and data (look a few pages back). The creationist/evolution debate is between people with charts and data, and people with faith.

The only faith I see in this thread is faith in humanity's guilt.
 
The global warming problem is less of a problem than the running out of fuel problem. Our oil reserves won't last for another 100 years and there isn't enough uranium to power nuclear fission plants.


Some day we'll have to switch to solar / wind power and nuclear fusion anyway, which doesn't generate CO2. Maybe even something completely different.
 
On Hurricane Katrina, "Did the earth betray us?". I thought Pat Robertson said Katrina was sent because God was mad at us :lol:

Boo! Hiss! I decry this film!
 
you know, the world does go through cycles that are naturally occuring. remember the ice age? well that occured after the world warmed up. then massive storms accumulated and made the world cold.

granted we are not helping the situation but remember that nature has a plan too
 
BMWteamPTG
you know, the world does go through cycles that are naturally occuring. remember the ice age? well that occured after the world warmed up. then massive storms accumulated and made the world cold.

granted we are not helping the situation but remember that nature has a plan too

Hope it doesnt become like it was in The Day After Tomorrow...
 
Nuts... it's 40 C here almost every day now. I can't take my baby out at noontime anymore, as the temperature differential between the house and the environment can make you sick and wobbly.
 
danoff
Texas is hot.

Last time I checked, they had a decent amount of desert as well. Isn't the desert usually the place where it gets the hottest?
 
Swift
Last time I checked, they had a decent amount of desert as well. Isn't the desert usually the place where it gets the hottest?

I think it's funny that Zardoz looks for odd temperatures over the entire world. If he finds something out of wack (either too hot or too cold) in any city anywhere on the planet he sees it as evidence of global warming. What about all of those places that AREN'T setting temperature records? Are those places evidence that global warming is not happening? Because if so, the evidence is overwhelmingly against global warming.

I also like that this record was exceeded in 1913 and matched in 1925, but that wasn't a problem back then. Now it's due to fossil fuels, back then it was just a freak occurence.
 
Yesterday, our high temperature was 58 degrees. The average temperature for April 17? That would be 58 degrees. Today it's supposed to hit 60 :scared:
 
kylehnat
Yesterday, our high temperature was 58 degrees. The average temperature for April 17? That would be 58 degrees. Today it's supposed to hit 60 :scared:

Man, you'd better get lots of dry ice to keep your food cold. That's a heat wave to melt the paint off the walls! :lol:
 
Yeah, it's all good. We're being good little stewards of our tough ol' biosphere.

The Chinese are doing even better:

The Chinese capital, Beijing, has been hit by its eighth - and worst - sandstorm of the year.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4103059.stm

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2006-04/18/content_4443769.htm

http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3640033a12,00.html

For the record, the Chinese have kept records of this for over 2000 years. Big sandstorms used to hit Beijing on an average of once every 31 years. I'm sure it don't mean nothin', though. It's undoubtedly the result of a natural cycle.

*yawns*

*goes back to sleep*
 
Zardoz
It is, at the very least, another item to add to the list of possible results. That list just gets longer and longer.

Yes, especially when one adds all of the possible negative effects of weather anywhere in the world. 25 years ago, nobody blamed a drought on anyone. These days, America gets to take the blame for the weather.
 
Zardoz
It is, at the very least, another item to add to the list of possible results. That list just gets longer and longer.
How long is the list of average results? Much longer I bet.
 
Today I read through this thread and totally agree with Famine and the other people who think that all this Global Warming stuff is a myth But... I also agree with the people who think that the Fossile Fuels/Oil will one day run out and we will be forced to find new ways to live life productively. And with me being almost 15 years of age here is my opinoin to whats going on:

1) One day the fossile fuels will run out, but by that time I will maybe be 70 or 80 and will have other things to worry about. But I think it won't matter because they will have already developed a new form of energy in which everyone can live off of, or things will go back to the way they were in the 1400's (economicaly) because I don't think many of them had any objects that used Oil or Fossil Fuels. They also didn't rely on a currency system because they had and used the Barter System (Which I highly doubt we will be forced to mainly use again).

2) Global warming isn't that big of an issue because I think the Scientists are just saying that and wanting you to reduce the ammount of polution you make because either 1)They actually think that it is the Pollution that is causing it or 2) They want you to save the Oil and Fuels so they can drive there cars longer. I have researched that the world is naturally getting warmer every year, just like how the atlantic ocean gets 1 inch bigger every year and in about a billion or so year Continents may collide. There may have been Global Warming way back before the Ice Age(s) which may have lead to them in the worlds Cycle, because the world is in a natural weather/temp. cycle.

3) With all the 'emissions' America is making (Which I belive is only 25%) it may only be speeding up this 'Natural' Cycle of the world's temperature and weather and there is nothing we can do about it but live through it and Adapt to the surrounding enviroment, just like humans have over the past million or so years.

4) (I read this on the First and Second pages.) I totally disagree with the fact that Oil is a 'must' because the facts show way back before all the Fuels and Oils were majorly used, people were living fine without them, sure they didn't drive sports cars or ride planes around the world, but they still survived, because they didn't need them. All these items that use Fuel or Oil are not Nessecary, they just make our life easier.

This is just my 15 year old Opinion.
 
Magikrio
4) (I read this on the First and Second pages.) I totally disagree with the fact that Oil is a 'must' because the facts show way back before all the Fuels and Oils were majorly used, people were living fine without them, sure they didn't drive sports cars or ride planes around the world, but they still survived, because they didn't need them. All these items that use Fuel or Oil are not Nessecary, they just make our life easier.

This is just my 15 year old Opinion.
Being 15 years old I understand you might not grasp that the way society has become since the use of fossil fuels means everything would change, not just driving around in sports cars. Your clothes use oil, your Playstation uses oil, food processing uses oil, everything around you pretty much uses oil or a fossil fuel of some sort. If we just up and quit using fossil fuels without an equivelant replacement everything you know would collapse around you.

For instance: Do I need to drive my car every day? Some could argue no but I do live 40 miles from work. So I move right? Then my wife lives 40 miles from where she works and she hates to drive. I guess one of us could quit our jobs and find one closer to where the other works, but I have great health care benefits and a 401k while my wife has 25% of her time until retirement already in and she would lose all that if she changed jobs.

Then of course if we just quit using fossil fuels things like A/C and heat would be out too and then old people would die off pretty fast and people with medical conditions, like myself, would suffer and/or die.

And remember that when you say people lived fine before we began using fossil fuels all the time you ned to really look at that. Their average lifespan was also 10-20 years younger than it is today. I have a 91-year-old grandmother who has a slightly weak heart with a pacemaker but is otherwise healthy. She is told to avoid extreme weather conditions. I doubt she would be here without fossil fuels and industrialization.

So, if you call small localized economies, lack of health care technology, higher mortality rates, and a much younger average age of death getting along fine then you are right. I however see that as a bad thing.

I agree we can stop using fossil fuels, but we need a good replacement first because I don't want to die the next time I need a heart surgery but the plastics used in making the medical equipment is in a shortage and it doesn't happen in time.
 
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