Global Warming/Climate Change Discussion Thread

  • Thread starter ZAGGIN
  • 3,644 comments
  • 221,466 views

Which of the following statements best reflects your views on Global Warming?


  • Total voters
    497
FoolKiller
I agree we can stop using fossil fuels, but we need a good replacement first

A) We don't have to just up and quit. We can slowly wean our way off.
B) We already have non-oil using replacements for almost everything you listed. They're just more expensive right now. As the price of oil goes up, more and more of those alternatives will be the cheapest thing around.
 
danoff
A) We don't have to just up and quit. We can slowly wean our way off.
B) We already have non-oil using replacements for almost everything you listed. They're just more expensive right now. As the price of oil goes up, more and more of those alternatives will be the cheapest thing around.

True.

The question is: How much time will we have to make the transition? Many pundits don't like what they're seeing about how fast world oil production will decline.

We need to really get cracking on the replacements.
 
danoff
A) We don't have to just up and quit. We can slowly wean our way off.
B) We already have non-oil using replacements for almost everything you listed. They're just more expensive right now. As the price of oil goes up, more and more of those alternatives will be the cheapest thing around.
I realize this. I was just trying to point out that we can't just stop and be fine because people lived that way 100 years ago.

Zardoz
We need to really get cracking on the replacements.
These things don't happen overnight. Think of how long humans used oil and oil-like products (blubber) for non-industrial uses.
 
Scientists fear new attempts to undermine climate action

...It predicts that lobbyists will try to undermine a report next year from the UN's Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), which is expected to give a new warning on climate change.

Sources say the report, a draft of which was handed to governments earlier this month, will warn that global warming could drive the Earth's temperature to levels far higher than previously predicted...

...The document says the oil company Exxon Mobil has tried "to influence public opinion about the threat of climate change". It also says "concerted efforts" were made in 2004-05 to change the way the UK media covered climate science after Tony Blair declared that global warming was one of his priorities.
 
famine, if i were to state categorically (like you just did) that global warming does exit, you would ask me for proof..

why do you not believe the mountains of credible evidence submitted by scientists the world over?



Famine


Global Warming does not exist.
 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This is an important thread & it needs careful post attention.

What happens to me when i go & research this subject & try to arrive at some complete understanding is i get sidetracked in a morass of detail;



CLOUDS being one of the major features of Climate & any Deltas from the norm we establish our perspective w/ & base our Actions On. The above was some of the yield concerning a clouds & cloud seeding search.
The bottom document can be obtained here,
at a website HybridVigor.org, whose stated aim 'is dedicated to stimulating unconventional thinking and unexpected discoveries'. Not a preconceived goal to disprove bad practices throughout the Royal Society etc etc. But to look for cross pollination that could aid actionable perspective. They've quite a bit of work on the role of Clouds.Which brings us nicely on topic as defined by the threadtitle.
Fossil fuels are not abiotic interstellar manifestations from a benevolent landlord that could share the particular of our perception. They are part of a stupendously complex life form of life forms. The Climate ? The Atmosphere ? - Organic Processes of a considerable age – 4,000,000,000solarcycles. Genetically Individual Mankind – 30,000yearsoflords G.F. the Factor. If we 'Own' the Planet then our actions, our General Activity has a 130,000:1 frickin' lens magnifying the trivialist of our Organic interplay, the cruisest Left Turn could be 130,000mph down the quarry dump.
From the same document, a little known discovery about the nature of the Upper Troposhere;

Mad rocket science? = insensitivity to the medium that is equivalent to an ocean. We have a more 1:1 relationship if we pour sht into a sea, river or bathtub ( but the degree of our intelligence implies bathtub is the image of direct actionability). Pumping stuff into the 'invisible' atmosphere w/out recourse to it's systems is NOT something of no consequence, a mere acceptance of 'rights' derived from an immediate invisibilty.In fact, most clouds are invisible, the higher Cirrus cloud formations are usually obscured by lower cumulus & nimbo-cumulus & many of these ice crystals have not being taken into account much when it comes to their reflective short wave capability. Heres another HybridVigor take;

There is a huge relativity to our idea of anything 'stable' fixed' and/or 'unchanging' when we apply these comfort images to our Real & Valuable Home. Most of these adjectives are better off applied to our cronies down the gov.pub & the contstant erectile launch of our churches than to any billion year+ organic-aligned Resource.
So let's take a look at the Thermal Contract upon which to fix our temperate certainties;

Even w/ megatonnages of greenhouse gases entering into this equation annually there is still a huge daily thermal engine that has it's own regulatory processes & mechanisms. As James 'She's a Bad Btch' Lovelock likes to point out ; in the timespans of Gaia(earth) Glacials & their Interglacials are a rhythmic reaction to increased solar output on the multistory organic atmosphere. Life in an Ice Age is Superabundant at the poles in the ocean and in the tropical forests (read; equatorial deserts at present). A heated ocean is bad for algae & plankton, the chilled drinks make for the party & the oxygen driven diversity.
So to my mind the question of 'Global Warming' remains open, but in the realm of analysis there is certainly Human Linked Massive Climate Altering. This evidence is worthy enough to be undeniable. So tp elevate inaction to a level worthy of yr private science rich persons god is Treacherous to logic, reason & more importantly the relationship w/ our mother concerning the value of our individual genetic thread. She retains the metal exchange rate that could v.quickly bankrupt our ability to interfere or even act at all. Right today it is still a matter of parameter & thusly pessimism won't catch a re-evaluation vis-a-vis the System we are actually trying to interface. But blind Unchangingness is a self-interest & a delusion that could be actionable in terms of Treason, usurping of energy values inclusive for a smaller exclusive value set, or even an alien & hostile value set altogether. Humanity is organic & we seek harmony but considering the state of interplay it seems we have a plastic torture toy inserted somewhere and these silos we consider to be the money when they are not sun-fed corn or anything of the sort. No, Corn we dump in the trade winds but a missile is a non-terrorist hero prick god to you non gays.

As i said in my first post of this thread, the Peak Oil crisis is going to hit 'civilization' like a ton of bricks enough decades earlier as to make Climate Change something of an aftershock. Long before anyone will convince Famine that Global Warming exists because of what happened to the sealevel etc we will be faced w/ v.tough adjustments to our parameters, so we better get used to the idea of learning how to dance & to stay in motion right now today while we have the flexibility & not wait for markets and other gods to dust of some hoary old tune. .

Yours,,:grumpy: c​
 
TurboSmoke
famine, if i were to state categorically (like you just did) that global warming does exit, you would ask me for proof..

why do you not believe the mountains of credible evidence submitted by scientists the world over?

"Just"? I said it six months ago!

It's the terminology - "Global Warming" is used interchangeably with "Anthropogenic Climate Change". It's this "manmade" inference behind the term "Global Warming" which does not exist.

Is the world getting warmer? Yes - in relatively recent terms. But we are living at a point in geological terms where the temperature is quite low for the planet.

Is man causing it? Given how little influence we actually have, it looks highly doubtful - though not impossible.

We've gone through the "credible evidence" in this thread and I've stated every time why I think that some data is "bad science" and some data is "good science".

There is no current balance of scientific opinion one way or the other - though all environmentalists would have you believe that there is, in favour of Anthropogenic Climate Change. There is simply too little evidence that would allow a conclusion that man is - or isn't - causing it, and we know too little about the Earth and, more importantly, the Sun, to say that it isn't - or is - entirely natural.
 
Famine


There is no current balance of scientific opinion one way or the other - though all environmentalists would have you believe that there is, in favour of Anthropogenic Climate Change. There is simply too little evidence that would allow a conclusion that man is - or isn't - causing it,

problem with that is that if we ever decide, oh, turns out man is causing all this climate change after all...well, paint me pink and call me a fairy

then its too late, we're fcuked.
 
And if it turns out we aren't, we've had three generations of extreme money-wasting and resource rationing, stunting our species' growth and setting us back centuries.

And if the aliens choose then to attack, when we could have had personalised rail-guns to defend ourselves...
 
TurboSmoke
problem with that is that if we ever decide, oh, turns out man is causing all this climate change after all...well, paint me pink and call me a fairy

then its too late, we're fcuked.
So instead we should force ourselves into an economic decline? Just remember that if we find out that it isn't an effect of human actions then we will not be in a position to just say, "fire it back up," and then return to business as usual. We would then be F'd for sure without being positive about the cause of global warming. Especially when you consider all the bad stuff that global warming is supposed to cause to happen. How can we prepare against that with a struggling economy?

EDIT: Also you cannot forget that based on the environmentalists own figures if we were to stop all greenhouse gas emissions now global warming would not reverse for 100 years or more. Perhaps we are better off bracing ourselves for the impact while slowly weening ourselves from fossil fuels.

We are now researching alternatives and trying to make them relatively affordable. It will be gradual change from one to the other. It may be for nothing more than economic reasons but either way both sides will eventually be happy in the end because we will still have economic growth and be using alternative fuels.

For instance, I currently cannot afford a hybrid vehicle. The technology just adds too much cost to be feasible. I can however afford a slightly used 32-40 mpg compact. I will be economically sound and stand by waiting for hybrid technology (or whatever else we develop) to become equal in cost.



Another problem with us trying to switch to alternative fuels is that groups like Greenpeace will complain about greenhouse gases but then fight against wind farms, nuclear facilities, and solar panel arrays. As I saw a pundit say on TV the other day, "they won't be happy until we turn off the lights." NIMBYism deters alternative fuels as much as ExxonMobile.
 
Famine
And if it turns out we aren't, we've had three generations of extreme money-wasting and resource rationing, stunting our species' growth and setting us back centuries.

i think the long term conscequenses are far worse for us if we continue at current pollution levels unchecked. We could start now gradually reducing emmissions at a level where industry can cope with the demands. Small steps..

the aliens choose then to attack, when we could have had personalised rail-guns to defend ourselves...

i have my swiss army knife, so i am fine.
 
TurboSmoke
i think the long term conscequenses are far worse for us if we continue at current pollution levels unchecked. We could start now gradually reducing emmissions at a level where industry can cope with the demands. Small steps.

Which is precisely what we're doing.

Very small steps.

So far, Kyoto has managed to cut the Earth's projected average temperature from what it was to a figure 0.002 degrees less.

Implementing this planet-saving temperature cut has cost nearly 260 billion pounds.

In less than 18 months.
 
Famine
So far, Kyoto has managed to cut the Earth's projected average temperature from what it was to a figure 0.002 degrees less.

Implementing this planet-saving temperature cut has cost nearly 260 billion pounds.
Which is precisely why Bush declined to sign the Kyoto treaty, not just because he wanted a tail to go with the horns and pitchfork the world in general had already painted onto his portrait.
 
Duke
Which is precisely why Bush declined to sign the Kyoto treaty, not just because he wanted a tail to go with the horns and pitchfork the world in general had already painted onto his portrait.

Heh heh, well said.
 
Duke
Which is precisely why Bush declined to sign the Kyoto treaty, not just because he wanted a tail to go with the horns and pitchfork the world in general had already painted onto his portrait.
Which is a shame, because he is right not to sign it.
 
Out of interest, can anyone translate DeLorean Brown's post into English for me?

I'm sure he's trying to make a point and, by the length of the post, it might be important and possibly even relevant, but no-one I know has been able to read it. I even printed it off and passed it round the office. We're all stumped.
 
Famine
Out of interest, can anyone translate DeLorean Brown's post into English for me?
Was he:
Drunk? No, there aren't enough typos.
High? No, it's too intellectual.
Crack? If it was crack, there'd be no post at all.

I'm going with speed on this one.
 
Famine
Out of interest, can anyone translate DeLorean Brown's post into English for me?

I'm sure he's trying to make a point and, by the length of the post, it might be important and possibly even relevant, but no-one I know has been able to read it. I even printed it off and passed it round the office. We're all stumped.
The only reason I hadn't asked before now was that I was afraid it had been too intellectual for me and just went right over my head. Now that I have confirmation it reads like gibberish with everyone I feel much better.
 
FoolKiller
The only reason I hadn't asked before now was that I was afraid it had been too intellectual for me and just went right over my head. Now that I have confirmation it reads like gibberish with everyone I feel much better.

Nope, I get it. I guess it was too intellectual for you. :)
 
'

Thanks, danoff, perhaps i should'nt post graphs or take an agnostic stance on global warming as it appears people would have problems looking up the word agnostic..
 
Yes - it's not exactly uncharacteristic of you is it?

I know that the saying goes "A picture paints a thousand words", but that doesn't mean that for every image you post you have to cram in a thousand words, regardless of context, syntax, grammar or scansion.


Seriously, no-one I know can make out what it is your post actually says - and several of those people went to university.
 
'

Better proofing following, in the meantime you could read the PDF that i linked to & the post was about. That way any perceived incoherency in that post would at least have some value.
 
DeLoreanBrown
perhaps i should'nt post graphs or take an agnostic stance on global warming as it appears people would have problems looking up the word agnostic..

Famine, myself, Duke, and it seems, you, take an agnostic stance on global warming. I'm glad you characterized it like that because people tend to misunderstand it.

Famine
Or indeed the word "sarcasm".

:)


DeLorean, can you help me out with this?

DB
Humanity is organic & we seek harmony but considering the state of interplay it seems we have a plastic torture toy inserted somewhere and these silos we consider to be the money when they are not sun-fed corn or anything of the sort. No, Corn we dump in the trade winds but a missile is a non-terrorist hero prick god to you non gays.

What exactly does it mean?
 
There I go, cherry-picking stories again

I'm sure this is due to natural cycles:

This situation remains dire along the north coast of Australia. It is hard to imagine a worse situation in this area as Australian cyclones almost never reach this strength. Monica is currently much stronger than 1974's Cyclone Tracy which is the benchmark storm for Australia. As far as I can tell, Monica may be the most intense cyclone to ever impact the region or even Australia. However, records are hard to find.

After striking Queensland a few days ago, Monica has crossed Gulf of Carpentaria and is strafing the coast of the Northern Territory. All of this comes as part of a recent string of cyclone strikes across the country. The latest advisory from the Joint Typhoon Warning Center lists Monica as a category 5 cyclone with sustained wind of 155 knots (178 mph) and a central pressure of 879 mb. This is an incredibly powerful cylone that actually is stronger than Hurrican Wilma (the strongest hurricane ever in the Atlantic).

Monica recently passed over Australia's Wessel Islands. At 879 mb, Monica is stronger than the dreaded hurricanes Wilma, Katrina and Rita or any other Atlantic hurricane ever were, never mind at landfall. The symmetry seen is Monica is flawless and it is rare to every see a tropical system look so well-defined. For reference, average sea-level pressure is 1013.25 mb and the lowest pressure ever recorded was 870 mb in Typhoon Tip...


cyclonemonica5kv.jpg


____________________________________


Attention Gulf Coast residents: Don't worry about a thing, this is also part of a natural cycle. When you compare the current buoy temperatures to the April average, and regain consciousness after passing out, remember that it's all just nature's way of telling you that you're about to get your sorry butt handed to you.

It's only natural:

Western Gulf of Mexico Coast

Can you say "hypercane"?
 
danoff
Let's take a look at the weather NOT being reported:
I was about to post a competing link, then I remembered this:

danoff
...We both exhibit this on a routine basis in the global warming thread - where Zardoz posts only information supporting the theory that mankind causes global warming, and I dismiss it and post information for him to dismiss.

*sighs*
 
Zardoz
I was about to post a competing link, then I remembered this:

*sighs*

Just keep in mind, you have the burden of proof. And remember that proving a temperature increase (which is very hard) doesn't prove the cause.
 
Back