Global Warming/Climate Change Discussion Thread

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Which of the following statements best reflects your views on Global Warming?


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I'm just saying. The free market isn't going to make more oil magically appear. It is a finite resource. BP themselves estimate about 50 more years and we will be running solely on reserves. That is within my life time. The market however won't give a damn until then, if helium is anything to go off, until long after we have dug into the reserves. If the gov incentivises a switch, so be it. The sooner we begin down this path, the longer those petroleum reserves last, the longer it will be around for more important needs than Joe Blows 98 Jimmy wheel bearing.
Point in case. Helium. Needed for scientific research, super cooling, medical equipment such as MRI machines. We are on reserves of a gas used in the equipment that saves lives, we are still using it to fill party balloons, at nearly no cost. not sure the market place can always be trusted. But... That is an off topic debate for a different thread.
As @Spurgy 777 indicated, the market will give a damn when there's money to be made. Right now the cost of using fossil fuels is low but as supply dwindles and prices rise, other technology becomes more cost efficient in relation and profitable as a result. The world still has to function, still has to move, get goods to market etc.

Helium is actually a perfect example of why you should trust the market and what happens when governments get involved:
"In 1996, the US Congress [Bill Clinton POTUS] decided to sell off the strategic reserve and the consequence was that the market was swelled with cheap helium because its price was not determined by the market. The motivation was to sell it all by 2015,"
Had the market for helium been left alone, it's price would rise as it becomes more scarce, to the point where you wouldn't be filling balloons with it or the balloons would be so expensive sales would dwindle accordingly. Instead, the government gets involved, floods the market with helium and it's so cheap little Johnny's parents can have helium floating all around their house every birthday.
 
I wasn't aware the gov had flooded the market, only that they had sold off a bunch of their reserves. However, the gov didn't set prices or mess with regs to get it done, just mandated that their reserves be sold off. Surely this could have been a boon for a solid enterprising entrepreneur. Regardless, it does show a lack in my info there.
And regardless, the free market only takes into account selling and buying. It doesn't care about the costs to human life, nor environmental quality. Give the likes of those that make and sell palm oil, regular Dino sludge, even Greek yogurt, and many others, environmental costs always seem to be an after thought that is only addressed once the people complain and the gov finally steps in. Which, by the time that happens, irreversible harm has already been done. The many oil "leaks" around the US, many more we may not even know about as the leak detection system in our pipelines doesn't work as well as advertised. The dumping of hundreds of tons of whey acid into local waterways. So long as destroying the planet is more profitable than keeping it clean, no company will step up to do so. The layman is usually to removed, uninterested in the processes to get their cheap goods or to uninformed of the process to make those goods to force the issue through the free market.
This leaves environmentalists and the gov to create policies that incentives clean production and harshly punishes those that would continue to pollute. Given the current and past history of industrialized production, I have very little faith in a free market policing itself.
To expand a bit on the people aspect. Would you rather have a straight democracy or something akin to the electoral college system we have now? There is good reason for this. Direct democracies would not work for a variety of reasons. The minority have no representation, the majority can be easily deceived. The layman, for all their worth, are typically only fluent in a few skills, typically none that would help them in deciding the effects of certain policies. That's why we have specialists and subject matter experts that inform our president and politicians. That's why companies hire contractors and so on. To think that a free market will do what's best is fool hearty IMHO. Could you imagine where networking tech, telephone services and the internet would be right now if AT&T were allowed to have continued on without the gov stepping in? I don't we would be enjoying this debate right now personally. Certainly would be choosing a lot more, and probably be more stifled and controlled. Now, you don't need to agree with me. We all have our own experiences, ideas and information that sway our beliefs and notions. Mine lead me to believe that just as in uncontrolled governement is bad for the people, so is a free reign, unchecked market place. If having a clean, healthy planet for us and our future generations isn't enough to make changes, which it appears sadly isn't then something else needs to be done. In this age, in this decade I dare say, we are sitting at the apex. We can step up, make the changes needed and come out onto the line that will lead us to health and continued survival. Or we can keep flogging the pedal, blow past the braking point and smash our planet into the wall, severally crippling ourselves and our chances to continue living prosperous, healthy lives. Relying on a free market, which only changes when there is a profitable reason too, I feel, will surely doom us to the later.
 
I wasn't aware the gov had flooded the market, only that they had sold off a bunch of their reserves. However, the gov didn't set prices or mess with regs to get it done, just mandated that their reserves be sold off. Surely this could have been a boon for a solid enterprising entrepreneur. Regardless, it does show a lack in my info there.
And regardless, the free market only takes into account selling and buying. It doesn't care about the costs to human life, nor environmental quality. Give the likes of those that make and sell palm oil, regular Dino sludge, even Greek yogurt, and many others, environmental costs always seem to be an after thought that is only addressed once the people complain and the gov finally steps in. Which, by the time that happens, irreversible harm has already been done. The many oil "leaks" around the US, many more we may not even know about as the leak detection system in our pipelines doesn't work as well as advertised. The dumping of hundreds of tons of whey acid into local waterways. So long as destroying the planet is more profitable than keeping it clean, no company will step up to do so. The layman is usually to removed, uninterested in the processes to get their cheap goods or to uninformed of the process to make those goods to force the issue through the free market.
This leaves environmentalists and the gov to create policies that incentives clean production and harshly punishes those that would continue to pollute. Given the current and past history of industrialized production, I have very little faith in a free market policing itself.
To expand a bit on the people aspect. Would you rather have a straight democracy or something akin to the electoral college system we have now? There is good reason for this. Direct democracies would not work for a variety of reasons. The minority have no representation, the majority can be easily deceived. The layman, for all their worth, are typically only fluent in a few skills, typically none that would help them in deciding the effects of certain policies. That's why we have specialists and subject matter experts that inform our president and politicians. That's why companies hire contractors and so on. To think that a free market will do what's best is fool hearty IMHO. Could you imagine where networking tech, telephone services and the internet would be right now if AT&T were allowed to have continued on without the gov stepping in? I don't we would be enjoying this debate right now personally. Certainly would be choosing a lot more, and probably be more stifled and controlled. Now, you don't need to agree with me. We all have our own experiences, ideas and information that sway our beliefs and notions. Mine lead me to believe that just as in uncontrolled governement is bad for the people, so is a free reign, unchecked market place. If having a clean, healthy planet for us and our future generations isn't enough to make changes, which it appears sadly isn't then something else needs to be done. In this age, in this decade I dare say, we are sitting at the apex. We can step up, make the changes needed and come out onto the line that will lead us to health and continued survival. Or we can keep flogging the pedal, blow past the braking point and smash our planet into the wall, severally crippling ourselves and our chances to continue living prosperous, healthy lives. Relying on a free market, which only changes when there is a profitable reason too, I feel, will surely doom us to the later.
I'll get to the rest of this later but the government flooding the market with supply is in essence controlling the market. It's the same strategy OPEC uses to influence the price of oil.
 
And regardless, the free market only takes into account selling and buying. It doesn't care about the costs to human life, nor environmental quality.
It takes everything into account. If people value the environment, they will pay to protect it.

Give the likes of those that make and sell palm oil, regular Dino sludge, even Greek yogurt, and many others, environmental costs always seem to be an after thought that is only addressed once the people complain and the gov finally steps in.

This is the same kind of force that would help establish "green" competitors. However, if the government steps in and eliminates their niche, it becomes harder for them to prosper.

That's why we have specialists and subject matter experts that inform our president and politicians.
They could inform the population directly too. I think the current method of doing things (ie get the government to enforce it) is something the majority of people is too accustomed to. I can see where you're coming from in arguing for it, but I think it can create as many problems as it solves. At the very least, it's not the only way to get people to cooperate on a large scale. It does however currently have very deep rooted monopolies in areas that I think are none of it's business. This stifles the ability of regular citizens to take action on their own by artificially removing opportunities and distancing people from issues (ie, "I won't learn about cleaning the environment because I'll just let the government handle it").
 
It takes everything into account. If people value the environment, they will pay to protect it.



This is the same kind of force that would help establish "green" competitors. However, if the government steps in and eliminates their niche, it becomes harder for them to prosper.


They could inform the population directly too. I think the current method of doing things (ie get the government to enforce it) is something the majority of people is too accustomed to. I can see where you're coming from in arguing for it, but I think it can create as many problems as it solves. At the very least, it's not the only way to get people to cooperate on a large scale. It does however currently have very deep rooted monopolies in areas that I think are none of it's business. This stifles the ability of regular citizens to take action on their own by artificially removing opportunities and distancing people from issues (ie, "I won't learn about cleaning the environment because I'll just let the government handle it").
I'm still not convinced that any meaningful change would happen soon enough to matter without intervention. We have a segment of the population that does believe that climate change is in some way influences by man. We have nearly the same amount that don't believe that. As such, I do not think the unregulated free market would adjust practices in time to make a difference. A market place isn't where we should be banking on environmental issues. It's a venture that exists for profit, not for causes.
 
I'm still not convinced that any meaningful change would happen soon enough to matter without intervention. We have a segment of the population that does believe that climate change is in some way influences by man. We have nearly the same amount that don't believe that. As such, I do not think the unregulated free market would adjust practices in time to make a difference. A market place isn't where we should be banking on environmental issues. It's a venture that exists for profit, not for causes.

Perhaps if the segment that believes in climate change stopped pushing doomsday scenarios and ludicrously alarmist climate "models" then more people would feel comfortable getting on board with the solution.

As it is it often degenerates into one of those issues where one feels forced to take an extreme stance on one side or the other, with very little room for a middle ground.
 
Perhaps if the segment that believes in climate change stopped pushing doomsday scenarios and ludicrously alarmist climate "models" then more people would feel comfortable getting on board with the solution.

As it is it often degenerates into one of those issues where one feels forced to take an extreme stance on one side or the other, with very little room for a middle ground.
I would add that to make the technological breakthroughs and social adaptations necessary to exert human control over the global climate can only happen if based upon a strong and vigorous economy. Thus we are faced with a conundrum; we need energy to fuel our economy, but we also need to reign in our use of energy to alter the global climate.
 
Maybe. But, I seem to recall in the eighties and early nineties, that it wasn't really put out as doom and gloom. It wasn't until this past decade that things have really ramped up. Be it the urgency of the matter or just the way media is, idk. To be honest though, I think humans in general are more reactive than proactive. I find it unlikely anything of real meaning is going to be accomplished until it's way beyond to late.
 
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Maybe. But, I seem to recall in the eighties and early nineties, that it wasn't really put out as doom and gloom. It wasn't until this past decade that things have really ramped up. Be it the urgency of the matter or just the way media is, idk. To be honest though, I think humans in general are more reactive than proactive. I find it unlikely anything of real meaning is going to be accomplished until it's way beyond to late.

Not really a new thing, since the 1970's global warming/cooling alarmists have been predicting doom.

According to the crazies from the 1970's the world would be flooded/frozen/dead by 1990's or sooner.

Doom and gloom is how the climate crazies operate, always have and always will.
 
Maybe. But, I seem to recall in the eighties and early nineties, that it wasn't really put out as doom and gloom. It wasn't until this past decade that things have really ramped up.

I suspect that's because we ran out of other moral panics. Communists, AIDS, drugs, recycling, paedophiles, terrorists, and so on and so on. Climate change is the latest in a long list of topics that are important yet become all consuming because so many people feel like they're far worse than they actually are.
 
Listening to Joe Rogan talk to Randall Carlson has been pretty enlightening. It's definitely changed my view somewhat on climate change and global warming and what our priorities should be in ensuring we have a planet for future generations
 
Listening to Joe Rogan talk to Randall Carlson has been pretty enlightening. It's definitely changed my view somewhat on climate change and global warming and what our priorities should be in ensuring we have a planet for future generations

Very interesting and fun watch. I did all 3 hours! I've seen numerous Randall Carlson podcasts and YouTube lectures and field studies, so mostly it was a refresher for me. I share many of his views. Here Rogan is on hand to provoke the Cogent with speculative questions.
 
I love listening to his podcasts. He gets a wide range of people on, discussing a wide range of topics. He also has no problem challenging his guests, which ever side of a topic they are on, but seems to have a back of asking questions that add to the conversation rather than decaying it. Definitely one of the better podcasts I've happened across.
As for Carlson, that was his first visit. He has been on the show 3 more times since. With Graham Hancock on the last two. They all follow the same theme however. Gobekli Tepe, Asteroids, Atlantis, and the battle against current thoughts on geology and archeology.
 
current thoughts on geology and archeology.
Current (mainstream) thoughts on geology and archeology already have changed a lot in the last 50 years. No doubt they have have further to go.

The major thing to note here though, about global warming, is that solar and cosmic physics are essentially excluded from the mainstream discussion. The current reduction in solar and earth magnetic activity and proportional increase in cosmic rays indicate to me a mini-ice age will shortly be upon us. Which could be far more damaging to our economy and way of life than global warming.
 
That's something Hancock goes into in a later podcast. It's crazy how unsettled our climate has actually been. Even crazier was that story of the Mammoth that they found unputrefied flowering plants in the stomach of. The extreme temperature drop needed for that to happen is staggering to say the least. And twice a year we fly through that asteroid tail...
 
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https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...-makes-three-in-a-row/?utm_term=.16a79002955e


They say part of the last data point on there (2016) is due to El Nino still, but I gather that it's a lot less of an effect than was had on 2015. Let's hope 2017 doesn't keep the trend going. Hell, let's hope we get a data point in 2017 - this is NASA after all, which is not supposed to be doing this kind of research according to the Trump administration.

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I wonder how many years/decades will have to pass before the right-wing think-tanks in Washington who consider all climate research to be bogus wake up to the possibility that they might be wrong. All I can say is that they had better not be wrong, because the consequences of being wrong will be felt by generations of Americans for centuries. If things were not bad enough before, the Trump era signals the final victory of the fossil fuel lobby/industry, and spells the death knell for any climate agreements past, present or future. Frankly, this is the point where reasoning based on evidence, observation and research is finally defeated, so it hardly matters who says what about any actual observations - you are quite literally wasting your breath.
 
The Guardian are clearly worried about the impact of the Trump administration on efforts to study/tackle climate change too, and they have several pieces online today about climate change, including a helpful guide on how individuals can make a difference by reducing their own carbon footprint. Unfortunately, I didn't get past point #1 which states:

#1
Air travel is usually the largest component of the carbon footprint of frequent flyers. A single return flight from London to New York – including the complicated effects on the high atmosphere – contributes to almost a quarter of the average person’s annual emissions. The easiest way to make a big difference is to go by train or not take as many flights.

👍
 
The Guardian are clearly worried about the impact of the Trump administration on efforts to study/tackle climate change too, and they have several pieces online today about climate change, including a helpful guide on how individuals can make a difference by reducing their own carbon footprint. Unfortunately, I didn't get past point #1 which states:



👍

Rick Perry, our new head of the Department of Energy has changed his mind about closing the Department, and thinks human activities contribute at least in part to global climate change. That was quick!

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/19/us/politics/confirmation-hearings-cabinet-donald-trump.html
 
Want to do plenty good go after the meat industry, good luck. Just leave my ice alone, they have suffered more then enough taking the brunt of hate from the lefties.

Trump wont be so bad, hopefully.
 
Have they figured out yet if clouds have a net positive or negative influence on temperatures?

It doesn't look like it yet:

https://isccp.giss.nasa.gov/role.html
A major effort is under way at the NASA Goddard Institute for Space Studies (GISS) under the direction of Dr. William B. Rossow , to gather better information about clouds and their radiative effects. Since 1983 theInternational Satellite Cloud Climatology Project (ISCCP), as part of the World Climate Research Program (WCRP) , has been collecting observations from weather satellites to assemble a global, multi-year dataset. GISS serves as the Global Processing Center for ISCCP, in cooperation with institutions in several other countries. The datasets provide some of the key variables that determine the interaction of clouds and radiation.

There are now a number of global cloud datasets and datasets available from special field experiments . A thorough study of all these data will take many years and will lead, of course, to new experiments; but the investigations have already provided fresh insights into how clouds might change with climate and provided us with some statistics about the global distribution and character of clouds.

Data collection and model development proceed at GISS in parallel, with the goal of formulating an increasingly precise understanding of how sensitive the climate is in response to external forces and what those changes look like regionally. If we can understand these processes well enough, we may be able to predict the climate of the near-future with sufficient accuracy to be useful for societal planning.
 
Wouldn't clouds be a sort of constant? Unless we are talking about dust clouds from volcanic activity or a meteor strike, I can't see that being a very big variable in temperature change.
 
Wouldn't clouds be a sort of constant? Unless we are talking about dust clouds from volcanic activity or a meteor strike, I can't see that being a very big variable in temperature change.

They change with climate change, and they influence climate change. A net increase in global temperatures will either result in more or fewer clouds. Clouds also affect climate change by either trapping heat or reflecting sunlight back into space. They could combat or compound.
 
Wouldn't clouds be a sort of constant? Unless we are talking about dust clouds from volcanic activity or a meteor strike, I can't see that being a very big variable in temperature change.
With warmer temperatures, there will be slightly more evaporation from oceans, lakes etc. The evaporated water is likely to condense into a cloud somewhere.
Actual dust from deserts, volcanoes etc is still undecided with regard to warming/cooling. On one hand, they stop sunlight getting to Earth, reflecting it back to space. Meanwhile, it is also reflecting heat already in our atmosphere. The net result of this is net yet known, as there are loads of factors in play such as the physical properties of the dust itself which varies by source type and location.
 
That's something Hancock goes into in a later podcast. It's crazy how unsettled our climate has actually been. Even crazier was that story of the Mammoth that they found unputrefied flowering plants in the stomach of. The extreme temperature drop needed for that to happen is staggering to say the least. And twice a year we fly through that asteroid tail...
How unsettled has the climate actually been?
 
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