Global Warming/Climate Change Discussion Thread

[Rallywagon]

The first picture is industrial waste water from a plant in China, the second is business as usual, I do not believe that is considered an oil spill. I may try and get ahold of an old philosophy teacher to get a video up that shows both the human and environmental toll a lot of these factories are having. In India, China and other developing countries it's really bad.
We in the states may have it a bit better thanks to the EPA, but those regs are only a veto away. If I remember correctly, Trump plans on pulling out of the Paris agreement and further plans to roll back conservation and environmental engineering efforts Obama has been working on or already put into place. I know for sure he plans on fracking every bit of oil and natural gas under our soil and reinstating the keystone project. I also have a feeling things are going to get really ugly for the tribes fighting the NAPL.

 

[Johnnypenso]

The first picture is industrial waste water from a plant in China, the second is business as usual, I do not believe that is considered an oil spill. I may try and get ahold of an old philosophy teacher to get a video up that shows both the human and environmental toll a lot of these factories are having. In India, China and other developing countries it's really bad.
We in the states may have it a bit better thanks to the EPA, but those regs are only a veto away. If I remember correctly, Trump plans on pulling out of the Paris agreement and further plans to roll back conservation and environmental engineering efforts Obama has been working on or already put into place. I know for sure he plans on fracking every bit of oil and natural gas under our soil and reinstating the keystone project. I also have a feeling things are going to get really ugly for the tribes fighting the NAPL.

With supposedly 1.7 million fracking wells in the U.S., can you tell us about the major issues they've caused so far?

 

[Neddo]

Of course. But @Neddo did say that the way to save the Earth was to go back to the lifestyle of the Middle Ages. However, he appears to have redacted that statement.

That was way OTT but people could look at those times and see that technology isn't always necessary.

Also, humanity was able to thrive without ICEs, and probably would thrive without it. Modern humanity would probably figure out the way of different living if modern technology disappeared for some reason. Just look at all those civilisations that had been conquered by Alexander the Great while he was using horses and cold weaponry. How Egyptans made pyramids. Poor slaves, though.

 

[Northstar]

Also, humanity was able to thrive without ICEs, and probably would thrive without it.

I'm guessing it depends on what you define as thriving. Something like life expectancy seems like a decent measurement tool.

In the span between 1800-1900 the life expectancy in Europe went from 34.3 to 42.7, in the America's it went from 34.8 to 41 in the same period. In 2001 the life Expectancy in Europe was 76.8, while in the America's it was 73.2.

Now obviously such a large jump can't be directly attributed to ICE's but it's hard to ignore that they haven't played a role. With ICE's you can get to a hospital faster in an emergency and they give you better access to specialized services as they increase your potential traveling area.

Modern humanity would probably figure out the way of different living if modern technology disappeared for some reason.

We wouldn't survive in our current state very long since we are so dependent on importing goods into areas where the land can't support the population.

 

[niky]

That was way OTT but people could look at those times and see that technology isn't always necessary.

Also, humanity was able to thrive without ICEs, and probably would thrive without it. Modern humanity would probably figure out the way of different living if modern technology disappeared for some reason. Just look at all those civilisations that had been conquered by Alexander the Great while he was using horses and cold weaponry. How Egyptans made pyramids. Poor slaves, though.

Yeah... if this was the Middle Ages, I'd be dead about ten times over. The measles, hepatitis, Typhoid, major concussion, broken bones (which would lead to infection and potential sepsis), diabetes, etcetera.

And that's not to mention all the lovely extra things that were still around at that time, like the plague.

We could live without automobiles, eighty inch TVs and jet travel... but a lot of energy consumption goes to things that make our lives infinitely better than your standard medieval peasant. ICEs help produce your food, refine it, deliver it and bring it to your table. A lot of the low cost of food depends on cheap transportation and processing. Then there's medicine... and medical research... which involves a lot of travel (I've done one or two projects for WHO... evil us, we actually used an ICE vehicle to go out and gather samples for an epidemological study... who knew you needed a vehicle to travel to remote places and back, eh?). Then there's everything else...

Yeah, humanity is incredibly wasteful... but technology does make life a whole lot better than otherwise.

 

[Rallywagon]

Yeah... if this was the Middle Ages, I'd be dead about ten times over. The measles, hepatitis, Typhoid, major concussion, broken bones (which would lead to infection and potential sepsis), diabetes, etcetera.

And that's not to mention all the lovely extra things that were still around at that time, like the plague.

We could live without automobiles, eighty inch TVs and jet travel... but a lot of energy consumption goes to things that make our lives infinitely better than your standard medieval peasant. ICEs help produce your food, refine it, deliver it and bring it to your table. A lot of the low cost of food depends on cheap transportation and processing. Then there's medicine... and medical research... which involves a lot of travel (I've done one or two projects for WHO... evil us, we actually used an ICE vehicle to go out and gather samples for an epidemological study... who knew you needed a vehicle to travel to remote places and back, eh?). Then there's everything else...

Yeah, humanity is incredibly wasteful... but technology does make life a whole lot better than otherwise.

Wasteful wouldn't necessarily be a problem if we did better at the 3 r's.
Johnny perhaps this? http://serc.carleton.edu/NAGTWorkshops/health/case_studies/hydrofracking_w.html
It certainly cannot be implied that fracking is without risk, and YouTube is full of videos of people having bad issues with their well water after fracking started. Some are fake sure, but not all of them.

 

[RC45]

Just think of how much less CO2 would be getting dumped into the atmosphere if we all scrapped our automobiles and walked instead!

LOL

Sure. Walk everywhere.

Just think about that for a moment.

You want every person in every village, town and city in every country to walk everywhere and give up the ICE? (and all of the progress that its invention fueled as well?)..

Are you sure?

No vehicles to carry goods or materials or food?

No vehicles to carry people?

No agricultural mechanization?

No mechanized iron or steel production?

No mechanical boats or ships?

No factories with any motive production lines?

What to do with the 5 billion excess people on the planet?

Are we allowed to harness the horse for a wagon?

If so, where do we keep them?

Get food for feeding them?

 

[Rallywagon]

LOL

Sure. Walk everywhere.

Just think about that for a moment.

You want every person in every village, town and city in every country to walk everywhere and give up the ICE? (and all of the progress that its invention fueled as well?)..

Are you sure?

No vehicles to carry goods or materials or food?

No vehicles to carry people?

No agricultural mechanization?

No mechanized iron or steel production?

No mechanical boats or ships?

No factories with any motive production lines?

What to do with the 5 billion excess people on the planet?

Are we allowed to harness the horse for a wagon?

If so, where do we keep them?

Get food for feeding them?

To be fair, he did say people and automobiles, which strongly eludes to personal vehicles. Not exactly the hyper pedantic scenario you laid out.

 

[RC45]

To be fair, he did say people and automobiles, which strongly eludes to personal vehicles. Not exactly the hyper pedantic scenario you laid out.

Ok, lets play your game.

Every person in every village, town and city over the entire globe gives up ALL powered personal transportation.

Now what?

Please explain how you/him moves ALL these people to where they need to go.

I am all ears.

 

[Imari]

That was way OTT but people could look at those times and see that technology isn't always necessary.

Most people would look at those times and see that while technology isn't strictly necessary to live, it sure does make life a lot better for a whole lot of people.

There's a reason that the Middle Ages are also often referred to as the Dark Ages, and it's not because it was cloudy a lot of the time.

If you remove the combustion engine (and it's associated carbon dioxide producing relatives), our entire civilisation has to change. Many more people have to work in the production and transport of essentials like food and medicine, which removes them from service and research roles. Big cities can't exist on the scale of what we have today. Manufacturing gets slaughtered, because many of the raw materials are very hard to reach without big machinery. And so on and so on.

The first picture is industrial waste water from a plant in China, the second is business as usual, I do not believe that is considered an oil spill. I may try and get ahold of an old philosophy teacher to get a video up that shows both the human and environmental toll a lot of these factories are having. In India, China and other developing countries it's really bad.

Industrial waste water with what in it? Usually it's treated before discharge (although in China it may not be). And usually anything over 50 barrels of oil is considered a spill, because anything less than that can look pretty bad in the right photos but isn't really that big of a deal to clean up.

China and India are terrible for pollution, but they're also terrible for workplace safety and looking after their staff. The Bhopal disaster was not that long ago, and that's the sort of stuff a lot of companies can get away with in less regulated countries to try and make a cheaper product. That's not right, and I totally support regulating those areas to a reasonable standard.

We in the states may have it a bit better thanks to the EPA, but those regs are only a veto away.

Everything is always a veto away. Are we going to start arguing about what ifs now? What if I was ten foot tall with a white beard and magic powers to dispel all pollution from the planet by doing my special cleany cleany dance?

I know for sure he plans on fracking every bit of oil and natural gas under our soil and reinstating the keystone project.

The Keystone XL project really doesn't do much that multiple other pipelines haven't done before it, as far as I can tell. I mean, most of the rest of the pipe is already being built. It's just a line in the sand (ha!) that people have decided to draw. I'd rather consider whether oil pipelines in general are of benefit, and what the other options are.

Like it or not, processing crude will remain a thing long after we're done using it for fuel. It's far too useful for making far too many things.

 

[prousonhairy]

Most people would look at those times and see that while technology isn't strictly necessary to live, it sure does make life a lot better for a whole lot of people.

There's a reason that the Middle Ages are also often referred to as the Dark Ages, and it's not because it was cloudy a lot of the time.

If you remove the combustion engine (and it's associated carbon dioxide producing relatives), our entire civilisation has to change. Many more people have to work in the production and transport of essentials like food and medicine, which removes them from service and research roles. Big cities can't exist on the scale of what we have today. Manufacturing gets slaughtered, because many of the raw materials are very hard to reach without big machinery. And so on and so on.



Industrial waste water with what in it? Usually it's treated before discharge (although in China it may not be). And usually anything over 50 barrels of oil is considered a spill, because anything less than that can look pretty bad in the right photos but isn't really that big of a deal to clean up.

China and India are terrible for pollution, but they're also terrible for workplace safety and looking after their staff. The Bhopal disaster was not that long ago, and that's the sort of stuff a lot of companies can get away with in less regulated countries to try and make a cheaper product. That's not right, and I totally support regulating those areas to a reasonable standard.



Everything is always a veto away. Are we going to start arguing about what ifs now? What if I was ten foot tall with a white beard and magic powers to dispel all pollution from the planet by doing my special cleany cleany dance?



The Keystone XL project really doesn't do much that multiple other pipelines haven't done before it, as far as I can tell. I mean, most of the rest of the pipe is already being built. It's just a line in the sand (ha!) that people have decided to draw. I'd rather consider whether oil pipelines in general are of benefit, and what the other options are.

Like it or not, processing crude will remain a thing long after we're done using it for fuel. It's far too useful for making far too many things.

India and China are very bad about pollution, but they have nothing on Russia.

Lake Karachay in Russia, is widely considered the most polluted spot on earth. They pretty much dumped straight nuclear waste into it in the soviet era, making plutonium. In certain areas of the lake, standing next to it will kill you in one hour from radiation poisoning.

In other areas of the lake, it is beautiful and breathtaking:

There's a couple documentaries on that lake and region, and lots of information on the web about it. Chernobyl is mild compared to this place. I think one of the documentaries on the region I saw recently is "City 40". Pretty good one, it's not so much on that lake, but on the entire region in general.

 

[Rallywagon]

Like it or not, processing crude will remain a thing long after we're done using it for fuel. It's far too useful for making far too many things.

I'll certainly grant that we won't break dependency anytime, but there is much we can do to cut back on the amount we use.

 

[Johnnypenso]

India and China are very bad about pollution, but they have nothing on Russia.

Lake Karachay in Russia, is widely considered the most polluted spot on earth. They pretty much dumped straight nuclear waste into it in the soviet era, making plutonium. In certain areas of the lake, standing next to it will kill you in one hour from radiation poisoning.

View attachment 606131

View attachment 606132

In other areas of the lake, it is beautiful and breathtaking:


View attachment 606133

There's a couple documentaries on that lake and region, and lots of information on the web about it. Chernobyl is mild compared to this place. I think one of the documentaries on the region I saw recently is "City 40". Pretty good one, it's not so much on that lake, but on the entire region in general.

Are the other areas of Lake Karachy a long way away...say Oregon?

 

[Imari]

I'll certainly grant that we won't break dependency anytime, but there is much we can do to cut back on the amount we use.

Yes and no. Depends where you are.

My perspective as someone who lives in Australia is that it's still pretty necessary. Our cities are very far away from each other, and food production is generally a long way from the population centres. A lot of people work significant distances from their homes, and the public transport systems are OK but mostly only in the inner suburbs.

Sure, there will be some people who use a car and don't really need it, but I'd argue that the proportion of people who actually do need personal transport capable of fast refueling and long distances is actually fairly high.

Maybe it's different in the US, but it seems like a pretty big country. Outside of those living in the centre of large cities I doubt most others would cope well without a car. Unless there were major changes to our civilisation and how people live. Once we have strong data connections to all regions and the ability to manufacture our own foodstuffs in our own houses that might change, but for now people and goods need to be able to move.

 

[Spurgy 777]

LOL

Sure. Walk everywhere.

Just think about that for a moment.

You want every person in every village, town and city in every country to walk everywhere and give up the ICE? (and all of the progress that its invention fueled as well?)..

Are you sure?

No vehicles to carry goods or materials or food?

No vehicles to carry people?

No agricultural mechanization?

No mechanized iron or steel production?

No mechanical boats or ships?

No factories with any motive production lines?

What to do with the 5 billion excess people on the planet?

Are we allowed to harness the horse for a wagon?

If so, where do we keep them?

Get food for feeding them?

Pretty sure he was joking.

 

[LeMansAid]

Yeah..... ah..... are we playing that game where we pretend that we don't know who @BobK is?

When he writes "teh interwebz" it's not a typo, and when he muses the benefits of stripping every citizen of their vehicle(s) it's tongue so hard in cheek that his face doesn't feel right for days.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Yeah..... ah..... are we playing that game where we pretend that we don't know who @BobK is?

When he writes "teh interwebz" it's not a typo, and when he muses the benefits of stripping every citizen of their vehicle(s) it's tongue so hard in cheek that his face doesn't feel right for days.

I'm guessing you haven't had run ins with RC45 who couldn't tell joke from serious statement any more than your tongue in cheek exmaple of Bob. But yeah it's more than obvious Bob wasn't serious, rather just playing into the random what if game neddo was doing to band aid this issue.

 

[Imari]

Are the other areas of Lake Karachy a long way away...say Oregon?

Hah. Well spotted. Right click image search is a boon to humanity and a blight on internet BS artists.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Hah. Well spotted. Right click image search is a boon to humanity and a blight on internet BS artists.

Just when I thought I could take things for face value once on the net, and it doesn't let me down with showing me I'm wrong. Back to being paranoid and double checking every image I see.

 

[prousonhairy]

Hah. Well spotted. Right click image search is a boon to humanity and a blight on internet BS artists.

Haha! That's weird though, I've seen that same picture on different sites saying its lake Karachay. :/

http://inspirationseek.com/lake-karachay-soviet-union-beautiful-but-the-most-polluted-in-the-world/

That's a different picture, but if you click on that link, it has that same picture as the one I posted above, that is of Oregon. Hmm. I wasn't trying to deceive anyone.

 

[Imari]

Just when I thought I could take things for face value once on the net, and it doesn't let me down with showing me I'm wrong. Back to being paranoid and double checking every image I see.

Yep. Turns out that the lake started drying out a long time ago when they had a severe drought, and it's since been almost all filled in with solid material. It's still ridiculously radioactive and such, and it's a crime that it was ever created, but a lot of nasty stuff went on in the Soviet Union in the bad old days of the Cold War.

People are actually trying to address the pollution now which sort of undermines the point that modern society is ambivalent to pollution. The East Ural Trace and Chernobyl (and Fukushima I suppose) are better examples of pollution actually causing damage to significant portions of land that should be human habitable, but all of those were accidents.


Interestingly, the first picture is from the nearby town of Karabash, and that pollution is caused by a copper smelting plant. Bad also, but not exactly what was claimed.

The second appears to be Kabwe in Zambia, and caused by lead and zinc mining. Again, bad. Again, not what it purported to be.

That's a different picture, but if you click on that link, it has that same picture as the one I posted above, that is of Oregon. Hmm. I wasn't trying to deceive anyone.

Be very careful with what you find in Google Images. It only takes a few people putting exactly as much effort as you have into verifying their images before the whole system becomes very unreliable.

I mean, take that link you posted. It has four images supposedly of Karachay, and very clearly they cannot possibly all be of the same lake. Look at the stuff on the shores, and there's no way on God's green earth that they're even remotely similar. A little critical observation goes a long way.

If you want to see what Lake Karachay looks like now, use Google Maps. You can see what it presumably used to look like (which is probably bollocks as well, the surrounding topology is way off), and what they've done to it now to try and contain the waste. It's not really that bad, considering all it's been through.

 

[Rallywagon]

Yes and no. Depends where you are.

My perspective as someone who lives in Australia is that it's still pretty necessary. Our cities are very far away from each other, and food production is generally a long way from the population centres. A lot of people work significant distances from their homes, and the public transport systems are OK but mostly only in the inner suburbs.

Sure, there will be some people who use a car and don't really need it, but I'd argue that the proportion of people who actually do need personal transport capable of fast refueling and long distances is actually fairly high.

Maybe it's different in the US, but it seems like a pretty big country. Outside of those living in the centre of large cities I doubt most others would cope well without a car. Unless there were major changes to our civilisation and how people live. Once we have strong data connections to all regions and the ability to manufacture our own foodstuffs in our own houses that might change, but for now people and goods need to be able to move.

A lot of the petroleum we use for making plastics and synthetics for clothing and what not can certainly be off set by using hemp and corn oils. While it certainly won't replace Dino sludge, it can help by reducing the amount we need to pull out of the ground.
Irregardless of the pollution issues, there is only so much petroleum to go around anyway. Fracking is a bit of a last ditch effort to wring the last bits of oil out of the ground. We will run out. And likely sooner than later at the rate we use it. I think it would behoove us all if we started now to break our dependency and work on finding solutions for replacement.

 

[RC45]

I'm guessing you haven't had run ins with RC45 who couldn't tell joke from serious statement any more than your tongue in cheek exmaple of Bob. But yeah it's more than obvious Bob wasn't serious, rather just playing into the random what if game neddo was doing to band aid this issue.

Run ins? Sure. What ever. I don't know and frankly don't care who bobk is. He posted a statement - I responded.

I only visit this once great web forum occasionally. If bobk is the great comic you claim him to be, perhaps he might offer some indication that he is delivering one of his infinitely humourous musings.

 

[Spurgy 777]

Run ins? Sure. What ever. I don't know and frankly don't care who bobk is. He posted a statement - I responded.

I only visit this once great web forum occasionally. If bobk is the great comic you claim him to be, perhaps he might offer some indication that he is delivering one of his infinitely humourous musings.

When someone is suggesting that everyone should walk everywhere, it's obviously a joke.

 

[Johnnypenso]

A lot of the petroleum we use for making plastics and synthetics for clothing and what not can certainly be off set by using hemp and corn oils. While it certainly won't replace Dino sludge, it can help by reducing the amount we need to pull out of the ground.
Irregardless of the pollution issues, there is only so much petroleum to go around anyway. Fracking is a bit of a last ditch effort to wring the last bits of oil out of the ground. We will run out. And likely sooner than later at the rate we use it. I think it would behoove us all if we started now to break our dependency and work on finding solutions for replacement.

Using arable, productive crop land to generate fuel is not only expensive but will also drive the price of food up as you take land out of food production and into fuel production. Supply and demand in the marketplace will eventually produce a workable solution and any attempt to jump start that will always cost consumers more money. If they are will to pay more money for something more environmentally friendly that's a different story altogether, but again, that's the market deciding.

 

[Rallywagon]

Using arable, productive crop land to generate fuel is not only expensive but will also drive the price of food up as you take land out of food production and into fuel production. Supply and demand in the marketplace will eventually produce a workable solution and any attempt to jump start that will always cost consumers more money. If they are will to pay more money for something more environmentally friendly that's a different story altogether, but again, that's the market deciding.

Yep. Supply and demand. Not that demand will matter when the supply is exhausted. As for growing space. If there is one thing marijuana has taught me is that the plant is very hardy. So much so that it should be relatively easy to convert some many abandon warehouses and factory floors into huge grow houses, along with creating large scale grow towers. We don't need to go out when we can go up.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Yep. Supply and demand. Not that demand will matter when the supply is exhausted. As for growing space. If there is one thing marijuana has taught me is that the plant is very hardy. So much so that it should be relatively easy to convert some many abandon warehouses and factory floors into huge grow houses, along with creating large scale grow towers. We don't need to go out when we can go up.

And as long as you are doing this in the marketplace, without government subsidy and support, I don't care. Let the market decide what it finds most valuable and the land will be allocated efficiently.

 

[Rallywagon]

I'm just saying. The free market isn't going to make more oil magically appear. It is a finite resource. BP themselves estimate about 50 more years and we will be running solely on reserves. That is within my life time. The market however won't give a damn until then, if helium is anything to go off, until long after we have dug into the reserves. If the gov incentivises a switch, so be it. The sooner we begin down this path, the longer those petroleum reserves last, the longer it will be around for more important needs than Joe Blows 98 Jimmy wheel bearing.
Point in case. Helium. Needed for scientific research, super cooling, medical equipment such as MRI machines. We are on reserves of a gas used in the equipment that saves lives, we are still using it to fill party balloons, at nearly no cost. not sure the market place can always be trusted. But... That is an off topic debate for a different thread.

 

[Spurgy 777]

I'm just saying. The free market isn't going to make more oil magically appear. It is a finite resource. BP themselves estimate about 50 more years and we will be running solely on reserves. That is within my life time. The market however won't give a damn until then, if helium is anything to go off, until long after we have dug into the reserves. If the gov incentivises a switch, so be it. The sooner we begin down this path, the longer those petroleum reserves last, the longer it will be around for more important needs than Joe Blows 98 Jimmy wheel bearing.
Point in case. Helium. Needed for scientific research, super cooling, medical equipment such as MRI machines. We are on reserves of a gas used in the equipment that saves lives, we are still using it to fill party balloons, at nearly no cost. not sure the market place can always be trusted. But... That is an off topic debate for a different thread.

As the oil disappears I imagine it will become more expensive so eventually other fuel sources will become cheaper and oil will be faded out because no one will want to pay for it. Might be more complicated than that, but I don't think I'm missing all too much am I?

 

[BobK]

Run ins? Sure. What ever. I don't know and frankly don't care who bobk is. He posted a statement - I responded.

I would think that the least you could have done is actually read my statement before replying.

Let's see -- I said:

Just think of how much less CO2 would be getting dumped into the atmosphere if we all scrapped our automobiles and walked instead!

To which you said:

No vehicles to carry goods or materials or food?

Trucks are not automobiles.

No agricultural mechanization?

Tractors and such are not automobiles.

No mechanized iron or steel production?

Not for automobiles, nope. For other things, such as trucks and agricultural implements, sure.

No mechanical boats or ships?

Boats and ships, last time I checked, are not automobiles. Correct me if I'm wrong on this.

No factories with any motive production lines?

Factories are not (wait for it!) -- automobiles.
Does anyone see as pattern here?

What to do with the 5 billion excess people on the planet?

Okay, so there will be minor inconveniences for some. But think of the CO2 which would be saved! Wouldn't that be wonderful?

Actually, I had made that same point about population myself a bit earlier in the thread. You'd have known that if you'd actually bothered to read a bit of the thread to establish a bit of context.