GM 'Waited to recall fatal-crash Ions'

[TenEightyOne]

"General Motors Co waited more than two weeks to expand a major recall to include the Saturn Ion and other compact cars, even though its engineers were aware of four fatalities in crashes involving the model, GM said in filings published on Wednesday.


In an amended submission to the U.S. National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, GM also said it had identified an issue with the ignition switch, the central failing in the recall of more than 1.6 million cars, in 2001 preproduction testing on the Ion."


Reuters

That's quite an admission if they identified the problem in prototyping, especially if a lawyer for any of the deceased can demonstrate to a judge that their death was caused by the car 'powering-off' in motion.

 

[xXKingJoshXx]

Shouldn't this be in the auto news section?

 

[Zenith]

Before we all go ZOMG Corporations don't even compassion for human life...

It's a big company, things like this happen for a variety of reasons. It is difficult to pin down why a complex system of parts that should all work stopped working. Hundreds of hours of research needs to be done with the waste of millions of dollars at stake if the wrong call is made.

Pro-tip: Don't buy crappy stuff.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Shouldn't this be in the auto news section?

Of course not!

@Famine or someone... please can you put this in the correct place? Clearly there was some kind of terrible software error....

@Zenith I was going to ask that; in the UK the equivalent "Vauxhall" is not quite a budget brand (eg Dacia, Kia) but barely scrapes into the next division with most of its models. I wondered if the same was true of GM cars in the States?

That's not to say that there aren't some exceptions, they're not bad at hot-hatches (where build quality isn't everything) and their motorway cruisers aren't too bad (I had an Insignia SRi for a short while, great on straight roads), but the rest of their output is distinctly plasticky and meh.

 

[Zenith]

The specific car(s) in question were some of the cheapest new cars available. Buying the cheapest car from a well known cheap brand like GM is a recipe for failure.

 

[White & Nerdy]

Especially a Saturn. GM's cars were usually pretty sound, but Saturn was a perfect storm of "low-budget import fighter brand" and "uses lots of bespoke parts for reasons". When those two things are put together, disaster is the most likely result.

Still doesn't excuse what happened here though.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Thanks guys, I just wanted to check. I can now imagine exactly what these cars are like to drive

 

[niky]

The question is why the recall took so long. Granted, GM went through a devastating bankruptcy during the intervening period, but there were a number of fatal accidents caused by the issue years before the bankruptcy. And GM has admitted that they knew of the issues even before the accidents started happening.

Good on new GM coming clean, but perhaps they're banking on that clean slate restart after the bankruptcy as insulation against a class-action suit, since the GM that built and sold those cars is now technically no more.

 

[Tornado]

They identified "a" problem with the ignition. I don't see the smoking gun in that showing they knew a specific set of circumstances could be avoided if they fixed that problem, like with the Corvair/Pinto/Explorer; where they absolutely knew in advance the issues with the lack of camber compensator/fuel bladder/proper tires and did nothing so they wouldn't have to spend the money to deal with it.

This just seems more like a "how could things have gotten so far out of control" in hindsight thing rather than actual proof of any misdeeds.

 

[homeforsummer]

This just seems more like a "how could things have gotten so far out of control" in hindsight thing rather than actual proof of any misdeeds.

Yeah, that's kinda my take on it too. I mean, isn't one of the major contributors to this a heavy keyring, or something? Obviously an ignition barrel is at fault if a heavier-than-average keychain can cause it to switch to the off position, but I don't imagine GM foresaw it being an issue. Maybe it's even something that can take years to crop up - i.e. the brand new part is okay but wears faster than average.

More worrying is quite how long it took for them to deduce it was an actual issue and not just a series of freak events, but that could feasibly be put down to the billions of layers of bureaucracy at a huge firm like GM.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Thank you mods (@niky or @Famine, I guess)

Just saw this on Reuters; U.S. safety watchdog says 303 deaths linked to recalled GM cars

U.S. safety regulators have recorded 303 deaths when airbags failed to deploy in 1.6 million compact cars recalled last month by General Motors Co, according to a study released Thursday night by a safety watchdog group.

The new report and higher death toll ratchet up the pressure on GM, which has said it has reports of 12 deaths in 34 crashes in the recalled cars.

GM did not recall the cars until February, despite learning of problems with the ignition switch in 2001 and issuing related service bulletins to dealers with suggested remedies in 2005.

The auto maker is facing increasing pressure to compensate victims and create a $1 billion fund, even if some would-be plaintiffs are barred from suing under the terms of GM's emergence from bankruptcy in 2009.

 

[niky]

De nada.

Whatever comes out, I'm still kind of glad that post-bankruptcy GM is trying to take a responsible stand on the issue.

 

[Grayfox]

How can they still operate if they filed for bunkruptcy?

 

[homeforsummer]

How can they still operate if they filed for bunkruptcy?

That was back in 2007/2008. They were bailed out by the government.

I'm fairly sure GM paid off its government debt last year.

Bankruptcy doesn't necessarily mean "that's it, gone". Otherwise Detroit would no longer exist.

 

[Tornado]

How can they still operate if they filed for bunkruptcy?

Because the company that filed for bankruptcy was spun off into a separate entity.

 

[Grayfox]

Well since they are still trading they can be sued for negligence.

 

[Tornado]

They aren't still trading. General Motors 2014 is legally distinct from General Motors 2007, now known as Motors Liquidation Company.




Plus, prove negligence for this case.

 

[Grayfox]

They knew of a possible issue, they failed to act upon it.
After the first death they should have initiated a recall on all effected models but they didn't.

 

[niky]

GM post-2008 is performing the recall. They're no longer actually obliged to, since, technically, they didn't build those cars... But it's a sign of good faith that they're doing it.

Political pressure can force them to pay out to victims, but they can't be sued over the issue, I think.

 

[Slash]

They knew of a possible issue, they failed to act upon it.
After the first death they should have initiated a recall on all effected models but they didn't.

What's to say other companies haven't done this and never even mentioned a word of it?

 

[Azure Flare]

Just GM things...

 

[Tornado]

They knew of a possible issue

And that could very well be all they knew. They knew of an issue with the car's ignition in 2001. In 2003 they knew that there had been a handful deaths with the Ion after the car launched, and some more following the launch of the similar Cobalt; and they knew (or at least learned by 2005) that it was due to a problem with the ignition. That doesn't mean that it was the same problem. That doesn't mean they didn't attempt to fix the problems when they first discovered them in 2001. That doesn't mean even if it was the same problem that they automatically knew that it was. That doesn't mean they knew what was causing the possible reoccurrence of the problem. That doesn't meant that they knew the Technical Service Bulletin they made in 2005 (when all of these cars were still under warranty, which greatly increases the chance of it being performed) wouldn't have fixed the issue. That certainly doesn't mean (if you're suggesting criminal negligence à la Pinto) that they intentionally tried to bury whatever knowledge they had so the problem could go away.



As far as we actually know, this isn't like the Corvair, where the rampant cost cutting and generally compromised design led to engineers and test drivers flipping preproduction cars; and then GM turned around and sold it without meaningful changes anyway. This might not even be as bad as the Citation, where they were operating out of their element and ended up foisting total incompetence on the buying public; coupled with the still common (at the time) practice of handbuilt ringers being given to magazines to test biting them in the ass harder than most when the major flaws came to light.
This may very well be an earnest attempt to fix what they thought the problem might be based on prior experience with a similar issue, and having that fix not work; at which point when it became clear it didn't the entire company was basically collapsing (along with one of the brands in question) so it really was too late to do anything about it.

 

[CodeRedR51]

When I had my '05 Cobalt, I was driving down the freeway one day and reached for something on the dashboard. I accidently bumped my keys and it shut off the car. Didn't really think anything of it, just restarted it and continued on my way. Glad I don't have that car anymore, it was a pile.

 

[Spec M]

"Mary T. Barra, General Motors’ chief executive, announced another round of wide-ranging recalls on Monday, a sign that the company was moving with a new sense of urgency on safety problems after it disclosed a decade-long failure to fix a defect tied to 12 deaths.

The recalls, which cover 1.7 million vehicles worldwide for a variety of problems, come in addition to last month’s recall of 1.6 million Chevrolet Cobalts and other models. In one of Monday’s recalls, G.M. had alerted owners to the problem three years ago, but did not make a recall."

"In addition to the recall over the air bag warning light, the company said it would recall 66,000 Cadillac XTS sedans, model years 2013 and 2014, because problems in a brake pump could possibly cause engine fires. G.M. said it was aware of two fires related to the defect.

The automaker will also recall 354,000 full-size vans that do not comply with requirements for head impacts for unbelted occupants. The vehicles are Chevrolet Express and GMC Savannah vans from the model years 2009 to 2014."

New York Times, March 17,2014

GM continues its trend of EPIC failure. They have known of the ignition issue for the past decade.

 

[MrWednesday]

How can they still operate if they filed for bunkruptcy?

The way bankruptcy protection works in the United States is not the same as how it works elsewhere in the world. Once they file for protection, the company gets an opportunity to present a plan to reorganize and continue as a going concern. Their creditors get to petition the court as well, where they may argue that the reorganization plan unfairly stiffs the creditors, or is not realistic, or the like. If the court signs off on the reorganization plan, then it is likely that the company will emerge from bankruptcy and continue to operate. If not, the process may be converted to a liquidation.

 

[YSSMAN]

This may very well be an earnest attempt to fix what they thought the problem might be based on prior experience with a similar issue, and having that fix not work; at which point when it became clear it didn't the entire company was basically collapsing (along with one of the brands in question) so it really was too late to do anything about it.

This is how I've read 98% of it. It sounds like they were aware of it being a problem in some instances, but it didn't seem a broad issue overall. With debt mounting, brands dying, and an issued service bulletin about the problem, I'm under the assumption that "Old GM" saw it addressed to whatever extent.

The problem here is that the press is trying to hammer GM to a cross, while at the same time GM is trying to cover their ass from the mistakes made back when the idiot bean counters were running the company. More than anything, I'd like to know two things:

1 - How sensitive are these ignitions? How hard do you really have to hit that key, or by GM's measure, how heavy does your key ring need to be to make this a problem?

2 - How many people have that many keys to make it heavy enough to have it be a problem?

3 - How many people don't know how to handle a car that loses power steering and brakes - how many of those 17 deaths were a direct result of that, or, just something attached to the problem?

 

[TenEightyOne]

Reuters: GM CEO says only learned of defective cars in late January

...but it's taken her this long to come to a stop

1 - How sensitive are these ignitions? How hard do you really have to hit that key, or by GM's measure, how heavy does your key ring need to be to make this a problem?

Surely a modern car company can't blame the weight of customers' hideous key ornaments? How would they sell anything in Cyprus?

2 - How many people have that many keys to make it heavy enough to have it be a problem?

See above, it just shouldn't be an issue at all. And if it is an issue (and GM just promised to fix the problem on 1.6 million cars, even those that have been resold several times) then why weren't they actively warning drivers? Is there even a warning sticker in any of those 1,600,000 cars?

3 - How many people don't know how to handle a car that loses power steering and brakes - how many of those 17 deaths were a direct result of that, or, just something attached to the problem?

I know how to do both, but if I'd ever lost the power steering in my Audi at speed I'd have been dead. Above 40 I'd have wrestled it about, below that it would have plopped my arms out and slapped me with them. And brakes... if you lose those then a lot of it's down to luck. Given that the car just turned your airbags off...you're going to need all the luck you can get.

This all stinks a bit, the modern GM may not carry the legal liabilities but some personnel from previous governance must surely be brought to the bench for flogging.

 

[Th3Juggernaut]

Not so fast...

http://www.star-telegram.com/2014/03/17/5656061/gm-sued-in-corpus-christi-over.html

 

[TenEightyOne]

Not so fast...

http://www.star-telegram.com/2014/03/17/5656061/gm-sued-in-corpus-christi-over.html

Interesting stuff, the battle of the huge lawyers will begin. This case will be of Grisham-esque proportions with a lot to gain or lose and I can see the plaintiffs having a tough job to demonstrate that GM knowingly deceived.

 

[Th3Juggernaut]

There were a lot of angry employees let go and forced in to retirement during those days, including many in a 'white collar' role. I'm sure those lawyers can find out a few interesting tidbits from some of those people.