Gran Turismo 5's damage modelling is unfinished

[Stew2000]

GT Academy is not really the best example.
TopGear with Laguna Seca and Nurburg is.
Proves you will always be faster in a game than the real world.

 

[Slurm]

True Stew, a normal guy will be faster on a game, but my point is that someone who shows great skill on a game like GT is likely to be a good driver, period.

I'm not using it as a point against you, as I'm sure it wouldn't have made much difference, but I did think that Clarkson was playing laguna seca on GT3, which was an older, much easier version of the track than what appears in GT4 (which I guess is the truer one).

 

[Stew2000]

I was referring to the lumps and bumps and potholes in the real world

 

[irnbrutwinturbo]

If you've played GT, you'll know that even in pro physics, the easiest and, in fact, fastest way through a race is by using opponents and walls as buffers, slamming into them to reduce speed and get you safely round corners.

I don't race this way, but many people do, because the gameplay encourages it.

Theres also an element of its sometimes more fun. Its very rewarding to use that computer driven EVO as a bumper when it used you as a bumper the corner before.

Not correct but FUN.

 

[GEORGE_GR33]

Umm, YOU seem to be missing the point here...

Would I want to be arcade driver in real life? No, because I'd wreck my valuable car, injur/kill myself, and endager the lives and property of others.

Get my point? GT5, whatever you want to call it, is a GAME, period. Even if it had 100% realistic damage in terms of affecting the car, so what? That would not make people better "race drivers" because it is still a GAME with no risk of personal loss and injury. You know that if you wreck, you can just start again, no big deal.

All GAMES like GT5 and other "simulators" can do is teach you the track layout, ideal racing lines, and general racing basics. While racing drivers are usually good at racing games, the coverse is not true.

You are 100% wrong about that. If you’ll study everyone that was one of the best at his work: sports, science, music etc.
They made it because of the unbelievable every day practice and effort, for many years.
Very few can endure that incredible effort. If you sustain the effort, the synapses of your brain multiplies, different synapses for
A driver, a scientist etc. you can read about that at www.newscientist.com/article/mg19125691.300-how-to-be-a-genius.html
I have seen it with my self. I drive my car every day with 3x speed more than other drivers, driving with my 2 fingers of my left hand.
This is my normal driving .I don’t push at all my self.
I truly believe, what Yamauchi believes, that if you can be one of the best at a simulator, you can be even better than pro race drivers,
But with a lot of practice of course.

 

[irnbrutwinturbo]

You are 100% wrong about that. If you’ll study everyone that was one of the best at his work: sports, science, music etc.
They made it because of the unbelievable every day practice and effort, for many years.
Very few can endure that incredible effort. If you sustain the effort, the synapses of your brain multiplies, different synapses for
A driver, a scientist etc. you can read about that at www.newscientist.com/article/mg19425691.300-how-to-be-a-genius.html
I have seen it with my self. I drive my car every day with 3x speed more than other drivers, driving with my 2 fingers of my left hand.
This is my normal driving .I don’t push at all my self.
I truly believe, what Yamauchi believes, that if you can be one of the best at a simulator, you can be even better than pro race drivers,
But with a lot of practice of course.

I'm a fast driver, but that sounds just stupid to me. Probably should avoid Greece.

 

[II IVORBIGUN II]

Actually Nomino, I completely understand Dude27's point.

Damage WOULD teach people to race differently in GT.

Sorry but I strongly disagree.

Anyone who thinks having damage will prevent the idiots online from bashing into you are sadly mistaken, if anything it may even spur some of them on. When racing online against strangers I can guarantee if the room has full damage enabled, by the first bend you will be left with two options, 1. Pull up out of the way and wait till the race is finished, 2. Quit the room. Anyone who disagrees with this obviously doesn't have much experience of racing online.

There are 3 types of online players.

1. The basher who finds enjoyment in wrecking other peoples races. These are usually the type of people who swerve left and right when your trying to pass on a straight. Having damage will make no difference

2. Fair racers but do not know how to play racing games properly. These types of racers will not deliberately try and bash into you but they will still collide with you because they know nothing of racing lines or correct braking points.

3. Obviously the fair skilled racers who use the correct racing line and braking points. These types of racers will actually let someone pass if they have accidentally collided with you.

I shall use my friend as an example because he typifies Racer No2. As much as I try and show him how to play racing games i.e slow in, fast out he still does the complete reverse. Having damage will not make a difference. Lets be honest a majority of collisions online are caused by the fast in, slow out mentality.

Im type No3. However as clean as I try to race collisions will always occur. This isn't because of my skill level but due to the fact that this is a video game and not real life. Even with surround sound, cameras you still cannot replicate the proximity of other racers aswell as you can in real life.

I will only race online with full damage against friends. Against strangers I will seek rooms that have damage, collisions off. I might have a G25, Cockpit but even I realise this is still a video game and not real life.

What I find ironic is I bet those who want realistic damage will be the first to post on this forum saying how they want damage turned off or will seek rooms with damage, collisions off.

Watch this idiot online when I played RacePro and how he tried taking me out on the corkscrew. He was annoyed because I passed him!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVQb0G3JJEo

Now watch a race on how it should be done. im in last place but watch on the last lap how close I get to the chap in front without colliding.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQSccKxykK0

 

[irnbrutwinturbo]

nice videos.

You'll definately benefit from the 'replay to youtube' feature

 

[Stew2000]

First video was good, however You make it sound like he was a total noob and should be shot.
He clearly went too wide and caught the gravel and lost traction. In a sim that's a horrible thing to counteract.

 

[GEORGE_GR33]

I'm a fast driver, but that sounds just stupid to me. Probably should avoid Greece.

If it’s stupid to walk 200 steps per minute because it’s your natural rhythm and the others can walk 100 or 150,
If it’s stupid to hold your breath at sea for 5 minutes with ease etc. then I agree with you.
And definitely no one is in danger by me.

 

[Slurm]

IVOR and irnbru, I wasn't really thinking about the issues that come with human error, and the issue of "but is it fun?", I was just backing up Dude27, who said that if GT is to simulate racing properly, it should have this aspect, rather than the physics turning arcadey as soon as you hit something. I agree with that.

I also think it WILL force people to race differently, at least those who are actually racing, and not messing around.

 

[Northstar]

What? If you crash into a car that is going 3X slower than you chances are they will be killed instantly as well as you and that is if you don't hit another car in the process. There is a video that could show this but would violate AUP.

 

[Slurm]

And definitely no one is in danger by me.

If you drive 3x the speedlimit through towns, with two fingers on the wheel EVERYONE is in danger by you.

 

[Nomino]

You are 100% wrong about that. If you’ll study everyone that was one of the best at his work: sports, science, music etc.
They made it because of the unbelievable every day practice and effort, for many years.
Very few can endure that incredible effort. If you sustain the effort, the synapses of your brain multiplies, different synapses for
A driver, a scientist etc. you can read about that at www.newscientist.com/article/mg19125691.300-how-to-be-a-genius.html
I have seen it with my self. I drive my car every day with 3x speed more than other drivers, driving with my 2 fingers of my left hand.
This is my normal driving .I don’t push at all my self.
I truly believe, what Yamauchi believes, that if you can be one of the best at a simulator, you can be even better than pro race drivers,
But with a lot of practice of course.

You nullified your entire post with your fist pointless statement. 100% wrong? Get a grip.

For a start, the general point of my post was that no matter how detailed the damage in a game, it is not automatically going to make you a better driver because there will ALWAYS be that element of "it's not real life". You drive with more risk and less concern for your safety in a game. This has also been proven. Besides, I think you'll find that I said a key word, "usually", in my statement about real race drivers being good at racing games, but not the converse. Don't take things personally or too literally - you'll live longer.

As for you driving with 3x the speed and two fingers...ummm, so what?! If I drove at 3x the speed down the road to my office, I'd be going 210mph, so...go ahead and dream all you like. As for driving with 2 fingers, we can all do that. It proves nothing, apart from you feeling the need to boast about something for the sake of it, and that you are putting the safety of other road users at risk because you do not have total control of the steering wheel. Do you see real race drivers race with just the 2 fingers of their left hand? No, so...

 

[Tenacious D]

Excuse me?

Right now I'm trying to think of another racing game that offers damage but not to all the cars in the game..... and I can't think of any. Can you? For many years now damage has been included in virtually every racing game under the sun and it has been a uniform feature, not a partial one.

Well, excuse me, but name me one racing game which has had to deal with so many licenses... I can't think of any. Can you?

 

[GEORGE_GR33]

You nullified your entire post with your fist pointless statement. 100% wrong? Get a grip.

For a start, the general point of my post was that no matter how detailed the damage in a game, it is not automatically going to make you a better driver because there will ALWAYS be that element of "it's not real life". You drive with more risk and less concern for your safety in a game. This has also been proven. Besides, I think you'll find that I said a key word, "usually", in my statement about real race drivers being good at racing games, but not the converse. Don't take things personally or too literally - you'll live longer.

As for you driving with 3x the speed and two fingers...ummm, so what?! If I drove at 3x the speed down the road to my office, I'd be going 210mph, so...go ahead and dream all you like. As for driving with 2 fingers, we can all do that. It proves nothing, apart from you feeling the need to boast about something for the sake of it, and that you are putting the safety of other road users at risk because you do not have total control of the steering wheel. Do you see real race drivers race with just the 2 fingers of their left hand? No, so...

Come on you guys, I don’t boast about anything or have the need.
My “pointless statement” it was for your last paragraph and nothing more.
Also I’m not some lunatic who drives everywhere with the speed of light.
I go fast only in my daily route, who I know every centimeter of the road.
Also, the best way to feel the car, is through your fingers, and I remember
That I saw a video on you tube, I think it was about the life of Ayrton Senna
Where Juan Manuel Fanjio says that same think and I was stunt.
All I did is say some facts and nothing more.

 

[Simple SIM]

Well, excuse me, but name me one racing game which has had to deal with so many licenses... I can't think of any. Can you?

There was a time when I believed that excuse but that was years ago.

Polyphony says "Manufacturer X won't allow their cars to be damaged" but then I turn my head and see the very same licensed cars in MANY other racing games ... being damaged.

I don't want to call anyone a liar when I don't know all the details, but something definitely doesn't add up.

 

[Maggot666PL]

Maybe it's about the way the cars get damaged? Scratching the paint is not the same as evaporating the bodyframe in a violent crash.

 

[Stew2000]

I'll be happy to see an Enzo cut in two

 

[irnbrutwinturbo]

Come on you guys, I don’t boast about anything or have the need.
My “pointless statement” it was for your last paragraph and nothing more.
Also I’m not some lunatic who drives everywhere with the speed of light.
I go fast only in my daily root, who I know every centimeter of the road.
Also, the best way to feel the car, is through your fingers, and I remember
That I saw a video on you tube, I think it was about the life of Ayrton Senna
Where Juan Manuel Fanjio says that same think and I was stunt.
All I did is say some facts and nothing more.

And if its a fact that you drive at 3x everyone else, then i would say that the speed is going is both dangerous and stupid.

I drive at say 20mph passing schools, if you fly past a school at 60mph then you seriously need to be banned.

And no you dont know every centimetre of your daily 'route', traffic, people, potholes, oil, weather, tyres, animals, light, are all dynamic. No two instances of driving that road have EVER been the same.

 

[Stew2000]

And if its a fact that you drive at 3x everyone else, then i would say that the speed is going is both dangerous and stupid.

I drive at say 20mph passing schools, if you fly past a school at 60mph then you seriously need to be banned.

And no you dont know every centimetre of your daily 'route', traffic, people, potholes, oil, weather, tyres, animals, light, are all dynamic. No two instances of driving that road have EVER been the same.

Agreed. I was behind a Supra today. my god he was a terrible driver

 

[irnbrutwinturbo]

Agreed. I was behind a Supra today. my god he was a terrible driver

You weren't in Athens by any chance?

 

[Stew2000]

lol. doubt that.
<--read the profile
He was so bad I overtook him. He wasn't too amused by being overtaken by a '97 1.3 Charade. XD

 

[irnbrutwinturbo]

lol. doubt that.
<--read the profile
He was so bad I overtook him. He wasn't too amused by being overtaken by a '97 1.3 Charade. XD

Thats funny and sad, just wanted to confirm that it wasn't GEORGE_GR33

 

[Devedander]

Well, excuse me, but name me one racing game which has had to deal with so many licenses... I can't think of any. Can you?

No... and I can't think of any games that took this long to come out and had such solid shoulders to stand on to boot...

That's ignoring the other comment about the fact that for some reason PD can't get damage license for cars that have damage license in other games?

This is probably the biggest, most noteable and highest profit racing game on any console out there... manpower should not be an issue and licenses (that others can get) should not be an issue.

 

[Custer85]

I have been driving on the Autobahn recently and some guys/girls just dont use their rearview mirrors. The Autobahn had 3 Lanes into each direction and there wasnt much traffic, so i let loose the mighty V6 of my Audi A6 2.8 (yea i know not that impressice) and accelerated up to 245 km/h or 153 mph (at least the speedo said so) and suddenly without a reason a Mercedes Sprinter decided to take the far left lane. I had to breake down to 130 km/h or 80 mph and nearly hit him.

The problem on the Autobahn is not the high speed, but the difference in speeds, just like in Gran Turismo 5 Prologue. People tend to underestimate the speed of others and enter the turns too fast and end up crashing into the other cars. A damagemodel will not solve this problem, it will just make the crash look better and it will make everyone suffer from the first corner on, in case mechanical demage is applied.

So, how far should PD go with the damage? Its a game so they should not make damage 100% realistic, since even small accidents can make you loose an entire race. I would find it annoying to loose a 24h race, just because i hit a curb to hard and destroy the steering or the dampers or anything like that.
I know it might be challenging and you will allways have in mind that the race could be over in a split second, but i think it should be a bit more forgiving than real life.

I would buy GT5 even without damage, because i actually dont care that much about it. But now that PD has included it, i will give it a try. I hope they include some kind of slider to adjust the level of damage, so that everyone can take it as far as they want.

 

[GEORGE_GR33]

Thats funny and sad, just wanted to confirm that it wasn't GEORGE_GR33

You are very amusing guy, really, good for you.
What I said is the facts whether you like it or not.
See you at the leader board “fast driver”

 

[Devedander]

The problem on the Autobahn is not the high speed, but the difference in speeds, just like in Gran Turismo 5 Prologue. People tend to underestimate the speed of others and enter the turns too fast and end up crashing into the other cars. A damagemodel will not solve this problem, it will just make the crash look better and it will make everyone suffer from the first corner on, in case mechanical demage is applied.

It wouldn't solve the problem, and in fact might make it seem worse in the beginnig as before all that happened was you got bumpbed, but now you get damaged!

But what it would likely do is push people to stop bieng the the problem. A lot of people I watch race who aren't good at it start playing GT and make all the noob mistakes (brake in the corner instead of on the straight, get behind someone and don't brake until you see them brake rather than brake where you know someone will brake) but because there is not much negative result from it (actually being behind someone and underbraking right into them can be an advantage a lot of times in GT as it screws them up and often slows you enough to get a good pass in) they never bother to get better. Being a bad driver actually works to their benefit a lot of the time so why would they get better?

However damage would make them realize they must now drive smarter or pay the price the whole race. In single player this is a great lesson to learn, in multiplayer it kind of sucks to be the guy who is teaching the lesson (as you take damage) but I think in the end it will make those who can learn to be better, actually be better, and those who can't will be forced to drop to no damage races to keep having fun.

Of course you will sometimes run into people in races who have not learned yet and the only solution is to boot them or find a circle of friends who you can drive with. But even in no damage races you occasionally run into someone who just ruins it bashing into people and going the wrong way on the track. It's just part of playing with a huge community of sometimes immature people.

So, how far should PD go with the damage? Its a game so they should not make damage 100% realistic, since even small accidents can make you loose an entire race. I would find it annoying to loose a 24h race, just because i hit a curb to hard and destroy the steering or the dampers or anything like that.

I think they should go as far as they can... I mean sure it sucks to ruin a 24 hour race by smashing a wheel in the first corner but then, don't you think thats true in real races also? The result: You learn to be more careful (rather than just hate on the damage) and you learn that sometimes you just have to pit and fix things. In a 24 hour race I assume you will pit multiple times.

For me this is the very reason I like damage (and in all truth the reason I have restarted so many races on the first lap ) it's the need to be responsible for your driving and the added pressure and excitement it adds... I can't count how many white knuckle final laps I have had where I just spent 15 minutes battling my way to the front of the pack and my car is showing the scars... I am just holding my lead, I have to nail every braking marker just right and be just cautions enough to not loose it on the corners, I have to drive the apex just right and hit top speed out of each corner AND I have to defend my line becuase the guy behind me has less damage than I do and is technically in a superior car now... I am essentially in a handicap race trying to hold the lead and I got to make the decision to do that by being aggressive... with damage factoring in it opens a whole world of exciting (and sometimes painful) opportunities to enjoy the game!

I know it might be challenging and you will allways have in mind that the race could be over in a split second, but i think it should be a bit more forgiving than real life.

The extremes of damage (ruining your car at any given second) are certainly there, but I think more important are the constant small things. The things you could overcome, but make it much more challenging like damaging your suspenstion so you can't corner as easily, or knocking your alignment out so you have to fight to keep it under control...

I suggest playing some gamse that do damage well (I always say Toca) and after a few frustrating races where you keep saying "WTF I hit one wall and no I have no chance of winning!" you will (hopefully) get better and overcoming the challenge of damage will make the races more satisfying.

Think of it moving up to damage like moving from an aracade racer to GT. The first few races are "WTF this is impossible, you can't even turn in this game and the brakes don't work!" but once you get good, there is no going back. Same happens with damage.

Basically if your skill level is maxed up without damage and you need to be able to smash into walls and others without penalty and you just can't get better... then no, damage will really suck for you. But if you can get bette (and almost anyone can with a little practice) it just makes it that much more challening, that much more real and that much more satisfying to do right.

In short, it makes it that much more like really racing... that much more a simulation

 

[irnbrutwinturbo]

You are very amusing guy, really, good for you.
What I said is the facts whether you like it or not.
See you at the leader board &#8220;fast driver&#8221;

Enjoy driving in real life at three times the speed as everyone else.
Not much use being on the virtual driver leader board if your 10ft under.

 

[Schmo]

So, how far should PD go with the damage? Its a game so they should not make damage 100% realistic, since even small accidents can make you loose an entire race. I would find it annoying to loose a 24h race, just because i hit a curb to hard and destroy the steering or the dampers or anything like that.
I know it might be challenging and you will allways have in mind that the race could be over in a split second, but i think it should be a bit more forgiving than real life.

I would buy GT5 even without damage, because i actually dont care that much about it. But now that PD has included it, i will give it a try. I hope they include some kind of slider to adjust the level of damage, so that everyone can take it as far as they want.

I agree with this statement. Cause after all... it is a game.