Gran Turismo 5's Updated Clutch Review.

I don't see the point in defending PD..
They need to be criticized over their clutch as it is an easy fix to implement and is a pathetic aspect of the game.
 
Use DFGT, but went to a friends house to try his G27. I've tryed his rig many times pre 2,08.

Clutch: Much better.

Shiftstick: Still the same.

If you drive a manual irl, and miss a shift, you'll get some nasty noices and a shiftstich that bounce back to neutral. Press clutch and select gear again. 👍

In GT5, your stick will not bounce back to neutral, nor will the gearbox give you nasty sounds.
Because... You're not in a real car. 💡
It's frustrating when you have the shiftstick in, let's say 3rd, but the gearbox is in neutral due to a bad clutch operation. You then need to go back to neutral to be able to select 3rd again. Can't see how PD/Logitech/whatever could simulate a missed shift in any other way.

How can PD, or any other gamedeveloper simulate mechanics that simply are'nt there?

Only way it can be done (thinking out loud here), is if there was an elektric engine attatched to the H-shifter that throw the shifter back to neutral if the clutch is engaged too early.
Would also require a huge H-shifter package, and programming from, in this case PD.


My Clutch review:
It's much better

My clutch/H-shifter review:
Slightly better feeling overall once you get used to the new clutch

My H-shifter review:
Still the same as pre 2,08. But who said that the H-shifter was going to be improved?
 
Use DFGT, but went to a friends house to try his G27. I've tryed his rig many times pre 2,08.

Clutch: Much better.

Shiftstick: Still the same.

If you drive a manual irl, and miss a shift, you'll get some nasty noices and a shiftstich that bounce back to neutral. Press clutch and select gear again. 👍

In GT5, your stick will not bounce back to neutral, nor will the gearbox give you nasty sounds.
Because... You're not in a real car. 💡
It's frustrating when you have the shiftstick in, let's say 3rd, but the gearbox is in neutral due to a bad clutch operation. You then need to go back to neutral to be able to select 3rd again. Can't see how PD/Logitech/whatever could simulate a missed shift in any other way.

How can PD, or any other gamedeveloper simulate mechanics that simply are'nt there?

Only way it can be done (thinking out loud here), is if there was an elektric engine attatched to the H-shifter that throw the shifter back to neutral if the clutch is engaged too early.
Would also require a huge H-shifter package, and programming from, in this case PD.


My Clutch review:
It's much better

My clutch/H-shifter review:
Slightly better feeling overall once you get used to the new clutch

My H-shifter review:
Still the same as pre 2,08. But who said that the H-shifter was going to be improved?

👍👍 Nice review.
 
You know what, to be really honest, I have p*ssed and moaned about the shifting in GT since the release of the game, and rightly so in terms of the 1st -> 2nd gear change.

What I do not agree with is everyone saying ER MA GEERD, MERSH SHERFT.

I have done several races, including and endurance race of 2hrs 30 mins, with only miss shifting once due to error from myself. I recommend those that are miss shifting analyse their own shifting technique rather than the game. remember, if you fully depress the clutch and change gear position, it will change gear.... fail to do either of these and it will not. simples.

On another note, I launched the car from the start line at the beginning of a race much better with this clutch configuration, so, so far, im happier with this setup.

The only way to improve is to monitor the 'Health' of a clutch, so that if you were to flat shift, it would decrease clutch efficiency and longevity, and once its going, it would slip and ultimately fail.

This is relatively easy to implement, and users could buy uprated clutches etc, which makes sense in that respect.
 
Hi mate,
of course, but for my part - it´s darn easy: I´m a dad, have 5 years old boy, wife and a good job. The reason was mainly "family" - as you can see by our club. Fact is that I have also some experience regarding real world racing environment and in this case I prefer GT5 instead of iRacing. The reason behind it is "less synthetic, more natural experience".

Generally speaking: you cannot learn much race craft in simulated motorsport, but you can learn almost anything else (professional driving techniques - please read books Speed Secrets, consistency regarding lap times, psychosomatic part of racing and time trials, different racing lines, different types of braking, setup, etc...

That´s also the answer why GT ACADEMY works fine in real life and as you can see. Each winner of GT Academy has pretty good chances in real life (actually: they are winning races!!! since "day two" in real racing environment). From the point of iRacing history and attempts to do the same, we cannot say something like that.

The reason is that iRacing is actually focuses on ultimate realism on a computer. That´s good I love it! But on the same time I can easily say that IT WILL NEVER WORK in real life. Too much realism on a computer doesn´t necessarily mean easier access to reality. Generally speaking: most of the so called ultimate racing realism simulators (rFactor, iRacing) are too sensitive - mainly regarding axis controls according to real life suspension data. That´s because of limited possibilities of input devices we are using, no feedback from car suspension, no peripheral vision in 1x1 (FOV narrow works really good in GT5).

The goal to be pro in real life even when you were racing just on a computer is to develop a good basic handling habits and here GT5 is better than iRacing, because it will teach you only AS MUCH AS YOU NEED FOR REAL THING... Nothing more, nothing less. When I tested the Skip Barber in iRacing for the first time, I just said no, that is not real at all, because if it was real, 70% of new school aplicants will lost their life during first driving lesson. The car was too sensitive, no grip at all, no chance to learn anything. As you ca see. It was updated but after a year or two (cannot remember), even though the Skip Barber was proclaimed as the most realistic replica ever. It was simply not truth and you cannot learn anything from that car. Solstice was better choice for the start.

Less synthetic means more natural feeling and more courage to develop proper basic skills they will probably work in real life (depends on natural talent). Hence the GT5 is recommended to everyone who would like to start real racing. I personally prefer GT5 instead of iRacing even when I´m a dad, have a boy, wife, job = less time.

Our club was established under these simple rules. Behave on track as if you were sitting in real car. We are not hot-lappers, we are mature gentlemans (slapping by our life stories and experiences) they enjoy GT5 as real as it gets. IT works amazing but you must find good mates with same goal, effort and sense for team work on track.

Cheers!

BTW: make no mistake, iRacing is the best motorsport simulator on the market yet and if I was a slob in real life, I´d probably come back to iRacing, but no thanks. GT5 totally meets my requirements.

Same kind of real life experience here and agree with you comments at 100%.

I too went to IRacing and did not like it so much and I am enjoying Gt5 everyday online and offline. Find it weird that some Iracing enthousiast have to put other option down, as if IRacing, as good as it is for online competition, was the answer to everything.

About the clutch; I have a Fanatec and I always race with the clutch, I cannot say that I think that the update is a big improvement, but it feels more real than before. Funny that some negative comments on this thread comes from controler user!

In any case it is a small step in the right direction, and yes it is harder to synchronise a clutch, a H-shifter, a brake pedal and the accelerator pedal than just blipping the pattle on the wheel and it can make you a little slower, tough life.:)
 
You know what, to be really honest, I have p*ssed and moaned about the shifting in GT since the release of the game, and rightly so in terms of the 1st -> 2nd gear change.

What I do not agree with is everyone saying ER MA GEERD, MERSH SHERFT.

I have done several races, including and endurance race of 2hrs 30 mins, with only miss shifting once due to error from myself. I recommend those that are miss shifting analyse their own shifting technique rather than the game. remember, if you fully depress the clutch and change gear position, it will change gear.... fail to do either of these and it will not. simples.

On another note, I launched the car from the start line at the beginning of a race much better with this clutch configuration, so, so far, im happier with this setup.

The only way to improve is to monitor the 'Health' of a clutch, so that if you were to flat shift, it would decrease clutch efficiency and longevity, and once its going, it would slip and ultimately fail.

This is relatively easy to implement, and users could buy uprated clutches etc, which makes sense in that respect.

I like the idea of the clutch being worn during racing. LFS did this but it was just ridiculously fast and it started slipping way, way too early.

And as for the new clutch system in GT5, I like the fact that it's an axis now but have noticed that it's way easier to mis-shift. And I thought that wasn't even possible. Well no can do, PD made the decision to improve it this way and thats how it's gonna be.
 
I know this is a clutch review thread but there seem to be a lot of G27 users here so here is my question... Since the 2.08 update once and a while when I downshift from 4th to 3rd and my revs are too high the car shifts to 5th but my gear shift is clearly in the 3rd position, I then have to depres the clutch again and pull it out of gear then back again to third. Is this happening to anybody else or am I just screwing it all up somehow?
 
I know this is a clutch review thread but there seem to be a lot of G27 users here so here is my question... Since the 2.08 update once and a while when I downshift from 4th to 3rd and my revs are too high the car shifts to 5th but my gear shift is clearly in the 3rd position, I then have to depres the clutch again and pull it out of gear then back again to third. Is this happening to anybody else or am I just screwing it all up somehow?

I haven't come across that issue. My main problem is misshifting which is no fault of the clutch.
 
What I do not agree with is everyone saying ER MA GEERD, MERSH SHERFT.

I recommend those that are miss shifting analyse their own shifting technique rather than the game. remember, if you fully depress the clutch and change gear position, it will change gear.... fail to do either of these and it will not. simples.


Wrong. If you do those two things, but fail to lift FULLY off the throttle BEFORE you press the clutch pedal- then you will be placed into nuetral. This is a major error on PD's part and the new clutch update, which makes the CLUTCH PEDAL ONLY much more realistic and better, actually makes the process of shifting even worse than before. Way worse.

-Now we must train our feet to fully lift off throttle, wait 3 milliseconds, press clutch further than before (this part alone is fine), move the shifter, let out the clutch pedal while getting on the gas. Fellas, this is an action that all happens very fast. In real life we do not need to let off the gas pedal AT ALL before we start pressing the clutch. Sure, the new clutch throw is great- but the actual problem is the programming that requires we lift off the throttle completely (around 90% according to some) BEFORE we press the clutch pedal even 1%.

We are all fighting with each other here due to simple misunderstanding- from both sides of the argument. Stop it. The new update is great for the clutch pedal only, but it is terrible for shifting like a race driver. Also, to Pianoman, I am about halfway through Speed Secrets by Ross Bentley and it is a fantastic book. And I've driven all manner of stick-shift vehicles for 15 years, for what it's worth.


Hope this clears things up, and I'm glad that Mitch has updated the OP to better state the problem.

:)
 
If its not the clutch what is it?

This should answer it :

Use DFGT, but went to a friends house to try his G27. I've tryed his rig many times pre 2,08.

Clutch: Much better.

Shiftstick: Still the same.

If you drive a manual irl, and miss a shift, you'll get some nasty noices and a shiftstich that bounce back to neutral. Press clutch and select gear again. 👍

In GT5, your stick will not bounce back to neutral, nor will the gearbox give you nasty sounds.
Because... You're not in a real car. 💡
It's frustrating when you have the shiftstick in, let's say 3rd, but the gearbox is in neutral due to a bad clutch operation. You then need to go back to neutral to be able to select 3rd again. Can't see how PD/Logitech/whatever could simulate a missed shift in any other way.

How can PD, or any other gamedeveloper simulate mechanics that simply are'nt there?

Only way it can be done (thinking out loud here), is if there was an elektric engine attatched to the H-shifter that throw the shifter back to neutral if the clutch is engaged too early.
Would also require a huge H-shifter package, and programming from, in this case PD.


My Clutch review:
It's much better

My clutch/H-shifter review:
Slightly better feeling overall once you get used to the new clutch

My H-shifter review:
Still the same as pre 2,08. But who said that the H-shifter was going to be improved?
 
Denilson
If you drive a manual irl, and miss a shift, you'll get some nasty noices and a shiftstich that bounce back to neutral. Press clutch and select gear again. 👍
/QUOTE]


Edit. Messed up my quote and clutch lol.

Spagetti said. \/


The only time you will get a crunchy gearbox or miss a shift is if the clutch isn't fully engaged.

Surely if the Clutch is fully open there's no noises or crunches at all?

As someone who has driven for 23 years its not often I have crunched a gear.
I have a HGV license and the only time I've crunched a gear is coming off the clutch to early.

I do follow your idea if how could they program a miss shift. Yes selecting neutral then re engaging the gear is the best form of simulating that.
But again it's a clutch issue.

The throw on the G27 h pattern is a small one. It's not hard to find the right gear. As long as its firmly mounted.

Alas I've not tried it myself so I am leaving myself open to criticism it's just that on paper it sounds like a clutch issue.
 
Man.... I was soooo excited when I seem that they were going to update the clutch in the latest update but immediately after I installed the patch I got a sinking feeling when I started playing the game. Before the patch I was missing shifts from time to time when up shifting and was forced to slow shift like I was on a Sunday drive. But now after the patch I am missing shifts on up and down shifts. I couldn't believe that they actually made it worse but they sure as hell did. I'm so disappointed. I find myself driving cars that are paddle shift because at least that functions properly. I hope to god they fix this issue and a lot faster than it took them to attempt to fix it this time. It really is awefull and like other users stated we paid more for the clutch experience and it is the worst way to play the game in its current state.

I'm using a g27 at the moment but I almost feel like I could have just kept my Dfgt. Maybe there is some kind of petition or something we can start and submit to Sony/PD?

I tried emailing Sony about it and they just told me that since it was a g27 problem they didn't have anything they could do. I tried explaining to them that is a game problem and not a hardware problem and all I wanted them to do was pass the info on.
 
I tried emailing Sony about it and they just told me that since it was a g27 problem they didn't have anything they could do. I tried explaining to them that is a game problem and not a hardware problem and all I wanted them to do was pass the info on.

You're barking up the wrong tree.
 
...

I do follow your idea if how could they program a miss shift. Yes selecting neutral then re engaging the gear is the best form of simulating that.
But again it's a clutch issue.

The throw on the G27 h pattern is a small one. It's not hard to find the right gear. As long as its firmly mounted.

Alas I've not tried it myself so I am leaving myself open to criticism it's just that on paper it sounds like a clutch issue.

The only way it'd be the "best" way to handle it is if, and only if, there were some form of feedback from the stick so that the only time the stick gets into a gate is when the game accepts that that's where it is - i.e. stick in gear, game in gear always. That's what was originally said, of course.

Without that kind of feedback / haptic control, to maintain the "realism" of the H-shifter, purely in terms of time lost to a missed shift (which is what matters most), you have to make the game persist in trying to engage a gear as long as it's selected via the stick position. What that means for missed gears in the game is that a simple dip of the clutch off the throttle (ideally that latter requirement would be removed too) should get you on your way again.

It would take no less time than dipping the clutch and re-trying the gear with the stick, provided you still have your hand on the stick (which you would in real life, as you'd have immediately noticed it didn't end up where you wanted it) and it isn't already in the required position (which it couldn't be in real life, else it'd be in gear and there wouldn't be a problem!). As it stands with missed shifts in GT5, the gear lever is in the correct position, but the game isn't in gear and it requires you take the stick out of gear and retry (and it's strangely difficult to keep the throttle off as you do, which will kill a re-attempted upshift immediately), on top of which you've more than likely taken your hand off the stick already - not ideal.

So: not a clutch issue.
 
Wrong. If you do those two things, but fail to lift FULLY off the throttle BEFORE you press the clutch pedal- then you will be placed into nuetral. This is a major error on PD's part and the new clutch update, which makes the CLUTCH PEDAL ONLY much more realistic and better, actually makes the process of shifting even worse than before. Way worse.

-Now we must train our feet to fully lift off throttle, wait 3 milliseconds, press clutch further than before (this part alone is fine), move the shifter, let out the clutch pedal while getting on the gas. Fellas, this is an action that all happens very fast. In real life we do not need to let off the gas pedal AT ALL before we start pressing the clutch. Sure, the new clutch throw is great- but the actual problem is the programming that requires we lift off the throttle completely (around 90% according to some) BEFORE we press the clutch pedal even 1%.

We are all fighting with each other here due to simple misunderstanding- from both sides of the argument. Stop it. The new update is great for the clutch pedal only, but it is terrible for shifting like a race driver. Also, to Pianoman, I am about halfway through Speed Secrets by Ross Bentley and it is a fantastic book. And I've driven all manner of stick-shift vehicles for 15 years, for what it's worth.


Hope this clears things up, and I'm glad that Mitch has updated the OP to better state the problem.

:)

i actually fully agree with most of this.

As I said, I am not one to complain as such about GT5, and to be honest, I absolutely love this game, its brilliant. My comment regarding those who miss shift was regarding those who want to flat shift etc.

although it can be done IRL, it is not recommended and not really seen with racing due to longevity etc.

In that light, yes the shifting system is wrong, and I believe they can improve by increasing the amount of throttle that is allowed during shifting.

However, with this comes clutch duration, and I think it would add another (simple) element to GT5 that others have not thought about/do not regard as important, which is the quality and duration of each component; in this case the clutch.

It would be great (and easy) for PD to implement a clutch that has a life span and what performance compared from standard -> sport -> race clutch. This has been demonstrated by the THREE man team over at Live For Speed (liveforspeed.net I believe) and as commented previously, although the lifespan of the clutch is short, it is very accurate and only needs amending slightly.

Facing facts, I dont believe we will receive MAJOR updates until GT6 now, and I will not complain as I like the simulator as it is. Bearing this in mind, I hope they do continue to develop and better each aspect of gt5, including clutch/shifting, in the next iteration.
 
RayRoocroft
i actually fully agree with most of this.

As I said, I am not one to complain as such about GT5, and to be honest, I absolutely love this game, its brilliant. My comment regarding those who miss shift was regarding those who want to flat shift etc.

although it can be done IRL, it is not recommended and not really seen with racing due to longevity etc.

In that light, yes the shifting system is wrong, and I believe they can improve by increasing the amount of throttle that is allowed during shifting.

However, with this comes clutch duration, and I think it would add another (simple) element to GT5 that others have not thought about/do not regard as important, which is the quality and duration of each component; in this case the clutch.

It would be great (and easy) for PD to implement a clutch that has a life span and what performance compared from standard -> sport -> race clutch. This has been demonstrated by the THREE man team over at Live For Speed (liveforspeed.net I believe) and as commented previously, although the lifespan of the clutch is short, it is very accurate and only needs amending slightly.

Facing facts, I dont believe we will receive MAJOR updates until GT6 now, and I will not complain as I like the simulator as it is. Bearing this in mind, I hope they do continue to develop and better each aspect of gt5, including clutch/shifting, in the next iteration.

This.
 
I have taken college courses on manual transmissions/transaxles, I have driven many different manual transmission cars, and my daily driver is a manual. What on earth does that have to do with anything?



It's been like that since day 1. I'm not arguing the realism factor of the whole clutch/shifting process, all I'm saying is, improvements have been made. The clutch is now actually sort of a clutch. The only reason that you think its "harder" to shift is that the engagement point is farther down the pedal, which gives the illusion of having to press the clutch pedal more in order to change gears. Once you get used to that, the whole process becomes easier than before because of clutch improvements, and them fixing the issue of having to let the revs drop a bit before engaging the next gear.

^^^This!

...and to some of you, I hope for the sake of your real cars transmission, that you do not (miss-)use it the way you described it here and even try to justify it by pretending you were mechanics.

I'm sorry but I will quote a post from 'pianoman' because it seems like you didn't or didn't want to read what he said:
You are wrong. Who knows: maybe PD is working on complete clutch system overhaul for next GT release. If so, the newest patch is logical regarding the development progress. I highly recommend to you read Speed Secrets series where you can learn a lots of real driving techniques habbits. Moreover: of course, you can not care about your clutch in real race cars, but your team will be not happy after your every single race, cause your clutch will be totally destroyed not just only after a few races, but just after a few laps... Of course, in the present time, technology regarding clutch systems is much more advanced now, but not in every car! There are still plenty of racing series, where you need to care about your clutch and proper driving technique regarding gear changes. If you will learn such techniques, you will be more experienced driver even in modern race cars and your team will love your standpoint. If not, you can start to learn everything from scratch again and start looking for a different job.

The idea for a clutch overheating simulation sounds brilliant, of course we should be able to turn it off, or it is for something like 'expert seasonals'.

In online lobbies I would love to have a setting that forces people to use clutch/H-pattern shifter(if the car comes with it, not a GT-R) along with other options like abs, power steering etc.

I agree with the ones that were saying the patch brought improvement, the clutch pedals works better/or more realistic now... still far from perfect and needs more improvements like the shifter, the neutral problem etc..

Even the clutch itself. The only thing I found dissapointing with 2.08 is why can't I smoothly release the clutch without any throttle to it and the car starts to roll? Why does the engine keep on dying? I understand this would be this way with a double clutch used in race cars, but a bone stock every day civic does it in GT5?.
 
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Man.... I was soooo excited when I seem that they were going to update the clutch in the latest update but immediately after I installed the patch I got a sinking feeling when I started playing the game. Before the patch I was missing shifts from time to time when up shifting and was forced to slow shift like I was on a Sunday drive. But now after the patch I am missing shifts on up and down shifts. I couldn't believe that they actually made it worse but they sure as hell did. I'm so disappointed. I find myself driving cars that are paddle shift because at least that functions properly. I hope to god they fix this issue and a lot faster than it took them to attempt to fix it this time. It really is awefull and like other users stated we paid more for the clutch experience and it is the worst way to play the game in its current state.

Using a G27, this pretty much sums up my experience too. I've not tried GT5 for two or three months but heard about the patch so tried it last night.

If I shift as I would in my real car then the shifts are fine. If however I use heel and toe (as I've been doing since day 1) then mis-shifts are now far more common for me.

Previously I would experience perhaps two or three mis-shifts per race. Last night, shortly before quitting in frustration, I was mis-shifting on practically every corner.

The interesting thing is, that when I first started after installing the patch and jumped into the latest seasonal event, I did think that the shifting was better as I wasn't getting any mis-shifts. Maybe this was a peculiarity of the car I was driving. A more likely explanation is that the longer I drove, I was perhaps trying to shift faster. Also, after driving for a while, maybe I was becoming more fatigued and lazy in my shifting.

The bottom line is that I came away from my session in GT5 last night entirely frustrated. As this is an entertainment product and supposed to be fun, it's probably going to be another two or three months before I try again.
 
Griffith500
So: not a clutch issue.

Ok. Like I said I don't have the game so could you answer me this.

Is it possible to select any gear with your foot on the throttle.
I've read that you have to taje your foot of the throttle to change. Is this true?
 
Spagetti69
Ok. Like I said I don't have the game so could you answer me this.

Is it possible to select any gear with your foot on the throttle.
I've read that you have to taje your foot of the throttle to change. Is this true?

Yes.
 
Ok. Like I said I don't have the game so could you answer me this.

Is it possible to select any gear with your foot on the throttle.
I've read that you have to taje your foot of the throttle to change. Is this true?

As stated that is correct, you have to have your foot off the accelerator.

But I wonder, I have always driven a manual car, and i always take my foot fully off the accelerate when shifting gears, so why are people moaning about taking ones foot fully off?
 
As stated that is correct, you have to have your foot off the accelerator.

But I wonder, I have always driven a manual car, and i always take my foot fully off the accelerate when shifting gears, so why are people moaning about taking ones foot fully off?

:lol: They want to abuse the clutch and doing flat shift all the time.:sly:
 
On a stock car it would take far more time than even a long race to damage the engine with flat shifting. The clutch, not so much, though.
 
Ok. Like I said I don't have the game so could you answer me this.

Is it possible to select any gear with your foot on the throttle.
I've read that you have to taje your foot of the throttle to change. Is this true?

Only when changing up. You can do what you want on the way down, sensibly.
I'd prefer it if the game modeled clutch heat and wear and allowed flat shifting, naturally.
 
The best clutch system I ever played was SEGA's F355 Challenge Arcade, the H gated shifter, the metal pedals, the clutch, they were awesome, heel and toe felt natural and can be done just like in real life, quick + precise. And as far as I can remember I could flat shift as well. If GT5 could better the old game, no body would complain.
 

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