Gran Turismo 6 AI discussion

[C_Raccoon23]

Agreed research. The day GT becomes an online only game is the day I disown the series forever.

 

[Logoncal21]

Gran turismo was alwyas may favourite series, and the AI issues were always concerning me.
I still love the series over than anything, but a bad AI on the Single Races makes the Getting Gold on License Tests and Events the actual challenge of the game.
I played and i still play Forza and i love to fight against HARD AIs. The only thing that spoils the challenge is the rewind mechanic, it's way too tempting and i will end up using it.
Overall, if GT6 gets a DECENT or better yet, a Great AI, i will love it. I really don't care about the sounds issues of the game, i want a challenge not a 15 second lead victory.

 

[Greyout]

Gran Turismo 6 AI owns
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qgsdb5wYMw8

Anyone remember the PC game "Viper Racing?"

I had some of the most fantastic, white knuckle racing of my gaming life in this Title. Suspension tuning was rock-solid accurate, and the AI was fantastic. Graphics were ok for their time, but the tracks were engaging and challenging.

The AI reacted to you really well. It would avoid contact, but not back off... also, if you were goofing off and went the wrong direction on the track, as soon as the AI could see you coming on the horizon, the AI cars would not hesitate to dive off the track into the woods to avoid hitting you head on.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcSCd2Oom10

 

[Griffith500]

Viper Racing was great! It had a sort of tuning and progression aspect - a real gamey aspect - to it, like GT, that wasn't really present in other sims.

There was Sportscar GT from around the same time, too. It served as a sort of forerunner to rFactor in the sense of the modding scene that sprung up around it; in a way, Viper Racing was a forerunner, too in terms of structure and, partially, scope (tuning). I don't quite remember the AI in SCGT, although I think they were bullies.

Speaking of which; the AI in GT2 is brutally ignorant. They're typically slow in some corners, perhaps a GT trademark, but their braking is much more effective (something I remember well causing me issues now that I think about it). They don't really like you being in the way and will just try to plough roughly through you, unless you're right in front of them, then they don't really try that hard to get past, which is odd.

Viewed in that light, the AI in GT5, as it was released, was a definite improvement. Obviously, I'm not saying it's especially great, but I think it's important to ground your perspective by revisiting these old games. We are easily due some serious improvement in interactive AI for the genre as a whole, and I'd be curious to hear what PD's approach will be.

 

[Raptor72]

An old PC game "Nascar racing 2002" had an AI slide bar so you could set them up as dumb as a post right up to basicly real life. Love to see that in GT6

 

[sems4arsenal]

I still can't comprehend the genius who modeled the A.I to let it essentially stop and let you pass then drive when you overtake from the outside,how did he think "Yep My job here is done"

 

[another_jakhole]

I still can't comprehend the genius who modeled the A.I to let it essentially stop and let you pass then drive when you overtake from the outside,how did he think "Yep My job here is done"

But what you said is easier said than done than it is to "let" the AI do better than what it does now without unrealistically/illogically/irrationally/stupidly ruining other racers' cars in the process of overtaking or by Forza's standard, being competitive (?). You can't simply make the AI smarter whilst also being faster without having to say enough is enough. Some of us get that the AI can only be improved to an extent through these updates for GT5 and others think we can get anything that's thought possible. When is the last time we got a large enough update that adjusted the AI? It started out being an overly aggressive moron to being a courteous moron over the course of two years.


We still only have a demo to judge the AI by. Saying that GT5 Prologue was simply a demo, in the sense of the word as we know it today, compared to the GT6 demo that we were handed out is complete crap.

FOR TWO AND A HALF YEARS, people have been saying GT5's AI isn't good enough. What the hell is that going to change NOW after what I've pointed out in this post?


I can't believe I have to point this out, but if you (the general "you") weren't aware, the AI "displayed" in the GT6 demo wasn't meant to be competitive. The target times of the trophies for the time trials COULD be proof enough. Or what?

 

[sems4arsenal]

I can't believe I have to point this out, but if you (the general "you") weren't aware, the AI "displayed" in the GT6 demo wasn't meant to be competitive. The target times of the trophies for the time trials COULD be proof enough. Or what?

Talking about GT5's AI (which does the exact same thing)

of course it's hard to code a decent A.I ,but staggering how PD ship a product with A.I that has such a major flaw is beyond me.

also what does Target times have to do with coding an A.I algorithm?

 

[Imari]

I can't believe I have to point this out, but if you (the general "you") weren't aware, the AI "displayed" in the GT6 demo wasn't meant to be competitive. The target times of the trophies for the time trials COULD be proof enough. Or what?

Got any hard evidence to back that up? Or is it just your opinion?

 

[Tenacious D]

Actually, it's my opinion too. Make of it what you will. And by the way, MOST posts on BOTH sides are essentially opinions.

Anyhow, more Chinese and more racing...

 

[research]

... And by the way, MOST posts on BOTH sides are essentially opinions.

Wait... What are the two sides again?

 

[Fryto]

If they re-program the AI to not hit the brakes and move over when you approach them I'm already happy.

I still can't believe they patched that behavior in because some people found the races too hard...

 

[HKS racer]

Actually, it's my opinion too. Make of it what you will. And by the way, MOST posts on BOTH sides are essentially opinions.

Anyhow, more Chinese and more racing...

Saying GT5 AI is substandard and programmed to help noobs winning races easily in Career Mode is not an opinion, it's a fact. Fact confirmed by the different AI available only in arcade mode. Almost the same AI got used in GT Academy powered by GT6.

 

[Fryto]

Even though it was running on rails, I'd take GT5 Prologue's AI system above anything I've seen in GT5.

It had a 0-100 slider in Arcade mode and I had tons of fun offline races, because if you put it high enough the top 3-5 of the AI competitors had a really decent pace.

 

[VBR]

Even though it was running on rails, I'd take GT5 Prologue's AI system above anything I've seen in GT5.

It had a 0-100 slider in Arcade mode and I had tons of fun offline races, because if you put it high enough the top 3-5 of the AI competitors had a really decent pace.

+1 👍 A few weeks ago I fired up GT5 Prologue, accessed the secret menu, & set up a 1 make race of 111R's on Daytona Road. Like you said, they are on rails, the race is pre-programmed & you can tell as they make the same mistakes if you run the race again & again! But hey, at least they make mistakes & take different lines, it's much more lively than GT5. When the AI is set to 100 they are much faster than GT5's AI, & you almost feel like you are racing them. They still need to be faster though, I'm not an alien but I beat them very easily & by a huge margin in just 5 laps.

It would be great if we had something similar in GT6, minus the pre-programmed behaviour & much faster opposition too. Also, it would be brilliant if we could choose the AI's tyres, & our own separately, to further control & tailor the experience to our own individual driving abilities.

Incidentally, the physics in GT5 at launch were very different from Prologues, GT5P's being superior imo. But after all the physics updates in GT5, they are much more similar now. Going back to Prologue I hardly felt any difference.

 

[PepeMickey]

If they re-program the AI to not hit the brakes and move over when you approach them I'm already happy. I still can't believe they patched that behavior in because some people found the races too hard...

No they patched it because it was literally on rails, you could park your car in the middle of the road and they would go straight into you and instead of backing up and go around you they would try to ramm you off the road. Also, some races were extremely frustrating because of this, both in Aspec and Bspec like the Historic one with the 2j and the Toyota 7. I'm sure most of us here won that one with either a Countach or a 512BB but we struggled and don't even get me started on the Bspec version of the same race.

Imagine how hard and frustrating this races were for newcomers and casuals, let's not forget that they're the ones making Sony's money.

 

[townnet]

New AI on the first launch or need to wait patch?

 

[Zlork]

GT6 doesn't need a new AI. It needs to be more aggressive and faster.

 

[research]

something about this topic just scares the budonkeys out of me.. Polyphony Digital presumably has great access to all of us playing their game. They can easily see how fast drivers are taking these corners in all sorts of events (TT's, Seasonal Train Races, A-Spec Rabbit Chases, Arcade, and Online races).

Let's just use the Loop at Cape Ring as a blatant, heartbreaking example. Now if you were in that studio, and you cared about your A.I., you would make simple comparisons to how players from all over the world are taking this turn. You would see the speed being carried, the throttle application, steering inputs, etc. You would then spin your Sparco office chair around to the A.I. programmers, of which there are only TWO, and say,

"heyyyy buddddyyyy, would you kindly add some throttle/speed/more grip/less grandma braking to the bots for this big easy turn, please?"

-And then on to the next corner to do the job again. Would you not? Welcome to the new age, PD. You have some fantastic resources in your hands. After 15 years of non-racing A.I. in the top console driving simulator, this should be one of the focal points of your efforts. Make this lifeless game more fun!

Also, anyone who says that fun, fast A.I. is not really possible is living in a gran turismo box, mentally.

 

[dr_slump]

Didn't he say that they "are continuously looking into improving" "technically possible" things, such as a refined AI replacing the GTA "placeholder", but which "sadly" could be delayed and instead being prepared to come "soon" in form of a "big update" after release?


Maybe I just hear too many things...

 

[bigspleen]

GT6 doesn't need a new AI. It just will be more aggressive and faster.

That is new AI genius...And yes it needs drastically new AI, it is 10 years behind the times.

 

[Zlork]

That is new AI genius...And yes it needs drastically new AI, it is 10 years behind the times.

No, just put AI diffculty on medium or hard as arcade mode.

I found really good AI in Gran Turismo 5. It overtakes, it avoids accident if possible, just missing difficulty. But other racing games, no one does it better, IMO.

 

[research]

no need for name-calling, mr spleen... I understood what Zlork was saying. The A.I. does have some abilities, as I have had good races with the A.I. in arcade when I use a detuned car/comfort tires/etc. They do seem to have a decent awareness of you and other bots, but even this aspect needs work.

 

[Zlork]

Thank you. I still need improve my English

 

[avens]

AI is going to change substantially with FM5, because it uses a similar system as in Mario Kart Wii which was fantastic. The future of racing AI starts in a couple of months and is up to all devs to embrace it or be stuck in the past (or go multiplayer only).

 

[Johnnypenso]

something about this topic just scares the budonkeys out of me.. Polyphony Digital presumably has great access to all of us playing their game. They can easily see how fast drivers are taking these corners in all sorts of events (TT's, Seasonal Train Races, A-Spec Rabbit Chases, Arcade, and Online races).

Let's just use the Loop at Cape Ring as a blatant, heartbreaking example. Now if you were in that studio, and you cared about your A.I., you would make simple comparisons to how players from all over the world are taking this turn. You would see the speed being carried, the throttle application, steering inputs, etc. You would then spin your Sparco office chair around to the A.I. programmers, of which there are only TWO, and say,

"heyyyy buddddyyyy, would you kindly add some throttle/speed/more grip/less grandma braking to the bots for this big easy turn, please?"

-And then on to the next corner to do the job again. Would you not? Welcome to the new age, PD. You have some fantastic resources in your hands. After 15 years of non-racing A.I. in the top console driving simulator, this should be one of the focal points of your efforts. Make this lifeless game more fun!

Also, anyone who says that fun, fast A.I. is not really possible is living in a gran turismo box, mentally.

When the $$$$$$$ keep rolling in in spite of crappy AI, 10 year old cars, backwards car tuning, awful career mode, substandard sounds, and on and on and on, there is little incentive to improve anything. Kaz is sitting back and thinking, "Well the game keeps selling, I must be on the right track, people don't really care about sound, AI, having numerous race series fully represented, frame rate issues and everything else the critics talk about. I'm just going to keep working on my vision, it must be right because the game is selling"

There is a real reluctance on the part of most entrepenuers to drastically alter the direction of any product they are completely invested in. I don't care who you are, Sebastian Vettel, Michael Schumacher, Adrian Newey, Shiro Nakamura or anyone, you walk into Kaz's office and say, "You need to alter all of these fundamental aspects of your game" and his answer will be "Scoreboard" "Come back and talk to me when you sell 70 Million units pal, stick to what you know..."

The best thing that could ever happen to the GT series, is a Forza product that blows GT6 out of the water, and a PCars release on PS4 that sells well for a game on a new console and gives them much deeper development pockets for PCars2, and sets a brand new standard for physics, graphics, track variety, customization, career mode etc.

 

[Imari]

When the $$$$$$$ keep rolling in in spite of crappy AI, 10 year old cars, backwards car tuning, awful career mode, substandard sounds, and on and on and on, there is little incentive to improve anything. Kaz is sitting back and thinking, "Well the game keeps selling, I must be on the right track, people don't really care about sound, AI, having numerous race series fully represented, frame rate issues and everything else the critics talk about. I'm just going to keep working on my vision, it must be right because the game is selling"

There is a real reluctance on the part of most entrepenuers to drastically alter the direction of any product they are completely invested in. I don't care who you are, Sebastian Vettel, Michael Schumacher, Adrian Newey, Shiro Nakamura or anyone, you walk into Kaz's office and say, "You need to alter all of these fundamental aspects of your game" and his answer will be "Scoreboard" "Come back and talk to me when you sell 70 Million units pal, stick to what you know..."

The best thing that could ever happen to the GT series, is a Forza product that blows GT6 out of the water, and a PCars release on PS4 that sells well for a game on a new console and gives them much deeper development pockets for PCars2, and sets a brand new standard for physics, graphics, track variety, customization, career mode etc.

I agree with you completely. When you're selling 10 million+ units there's very little incentive to change anything, and some pretty big incentives to change as little as possible.

I very much doubt we'll see any significant changes to the established parts of the GT "formula". Until there's measureable feedback that GT needs to change in some way, which in the business world means either sharply declining sales or an outcry on the level of the XB1 fiasco, there's likely to be little change at all. Unfortunately.

On the plus side, at least GT games tend to go platinum pretty quick.

 

[snowgt]

AI is going to change substantially with FM5, because it uses a similar system as in Mario Kart Wii which was fantastic. The future of racing AI starts in a couple of months and is up to all devs to embrace it or be stuck in the past (or go multiplayer only).

Oh, please don't believe that cloud-AI nonsense! AI behaves according to predefined algorithms. Those algorithms are part of the game on your machine, so it doesn't need nor can it use the cloud to make it better, i.e. more aware of its surroundings or react in better ways. Using a remote service for in-race decisions is also clearly too slow to have any use. This notion of the AI learning from player's lines around the tracks is just publicity and can just as well be programmed into the game from the start.

 

[Crispy]

Oh, please don't believe that cloud-AI nonsense! AI behaves according to predefined algorithms. Those algorithms are part of the game on your machine, so it doesn't need nor can it use the cloud to make it better, i.e. more aware of its surroundings or react in better ways. Using a remote service for in-race decisions is also clearly too slow to have any use. This notion of the AI learning from player's lines around the tracks is just publicity and can just as well be programmed into the game from the start.

It takes the cloud data from your friends, like speed through corners, their line, and steering inputs, then uses the built in AI algorithms and mesh it all together to form the AI.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

I hope those real data sent to the cloud servers are those of clean and skilled drivers, not kids or casuals who love to do dirty driving and make tons of mistakes or just sunday driving at the track instead of racing. It will be interesting how the cloud will differentiate them, one can post quick lap times driving dirty and cutting corners or uses all aids available which will blur the actual driver input.