Gran Turismo 6 general Physics Discussion(as well as video)

and be back a bit on the throttle during corner entry to combat the engine braking (the actual cause of oversteer off-throttle)

That's not the way I'd put it, and I think it gives a misleading picture of what leads to off-throttle oversteer. Fundamentally, what causes it is weight transfer away from the rear wheels, but that would happen on lift-off even without engine braking. Engine braking contributes, but I don't think it's accurate to state it as the sole cause.
 
I'm not too happy really. My experience thus far is limited to FWD cars but the infinite understeer from GTp is back, and the cars feel utterly numb as you enter a corner. I feel little coming back at me through the wheel and it's just masses of numb understeer. ABS 0 has been massively improved though so that's a positive.

The weight transfer is a good addition, but evidently it's not quite right with all the weird endo's people are doing.

I'm also pretty adamant that the tuning settings do close to zero and are merely a placebo.

That doesn't mean that I don't enjoy driving, but if I could chose a feature-equal version of GT5 or GT6, I'd choose GT5.

Technically the framerate leaves a lot to be desired, and we have the usual exclusion of features that were patched into 5 and are inexplicably missing from this iteration.
 
I'm not too happy really. My experience thus far is limited to FWD cars but the infinite understeer from GTp is back, and the cars feel utterly numb as you enter a corner. I feel little coming back at me through the wheel and it's just masses of numb understeer.

Weird that you're seeing that, my experience has been the opposite. Unlike with GT5, when I lift off, the car rotates and stays rotated, I can use the throttle to manage my line through a turn.
 
That's not the way I'd put it, and I think it gives a misleading picture of what leads to off-throttle oversteer. Fundamentally, what causes it is weight transfer away from the rear wheels, but that would happen on lift-off even without engine braking. Engine braking contributes, but I don't think it's accurate to state it as the sole cause.

Try driving the car through a long sweeping corner and slowly lift off the throttle so that weight transfer is minimized and see what happens. A good corner to do this is that long right hander at Tsukuba.

Weight transfer may have a small effect if you're manipulating the car in such a way, but the major reason for off-throttle oversteer is the engine braking, an old sporty engine like what the Stratos has will have a lot of engine braking and all of that will bite down on the rear tires and it's effectively like a weak e-brake.

When i said you could use the engine braking to your advantage, that applies to the braking zone as well, since it's helping to slow the car down, which is why if you're on the throttle to prevent it, then you're not getting a large part of the braking force capable by the car. F1 cars use massive amounts of engine braking and it's something that has to be taken advantage of to get the maximum out of the cars, the Stratos is no different in that regard.
 
Weird that you're seeing that, my experience has been the opposite. Unlike with GT5, when I lift off, the car rotates and stays rotated, I can use the throttle to manage my line through a turn.

On FWD?

I need to give the RWD cars a go and I'm sure they'll perform better, but nonetheless the FWD stuff feels pretty bleh..

I've also only been using comfort softs as well so maybe it's better on higher grade tyres... still, I don't like how they are being simulated.. lack of grip or otherwise something feels pretty horrid there.
 
On FWD. I think it's mostly CS tires, I've been running exclusively with stock tires except for a spell of online driving the X-Bow on RS.
 
Blipping the throttle during downshift isn't what i thought you meant when you said you need to be on the throttle and brakes at the same time, that should only be to bring the driveline up to the speed of the tires anyways, so it would have no effect on the brakes if done properly. Either way, left foot braking while still on the throttle without the clutch depressed is only useful for small directional changes and for bringing the engine up to a more optimum speed (what Schumacher and other pro's do). If you're in a major braking zone you should just brake and downshift normally and be back a bit on the throttle during corner entry to combat the engine braking (the actual cause of oversteer off-throttle), although you can use the engine braking to your advantage in some situations.

There's absolutely no reason to be on the brakes at the same time as the throttle in most situations and definitely not for a prolonged period, you only would ever want a dab of the brakes if you're still on the throttle otherwise like i said you would destroy the brakes in real life. Just because you can't wear the brakes in GT doesn't mean it's a good technique. The only reason why i could see anyone doing this is if they're not getting the braking points correct and are simply entering a corner too quickly, because i can easily brake in a straight line or even a slight bend with the Stratos without any trouble. As long as you know how to apply the brakes then i honestly don't see the point in being on the throttle at the same time, it would just lengthen your braking zone unnecessarily and have the potential for more wear on the car.


I said leave the throttle open slightly after a blip. as in you blip to downshift but do not come fully off the throttle after the shift is completed, to leave some throttle open during braking to reduce offthrottle oversteer during the braking phase. Like I said it's a pretty commonly used technique to balance offthrottle oversteer in cars.

Schumacher used throttle during braking to increase his cornering speed, he would have an oversteer heavy setup on the car and dial out the oversteer during a corner by running a small ammount of throttle while braking, then he could regulate the turn in during the braking zone based on how much throttle he had on while braking to maximise entry speed.

There was an article comparing Michael Schumachers telemetry with Rubens Barichello and a big discussion about it at the iRacing forums a few years back. The telemetry comparisons showed where Michael was gaining time over Rubens by using throttle during braking, he almost never came fully off the throttle. Rubens drives oldschool and right foot brakes, even in the Ferrari days of F1 he had not switched to left foot braking. The advantage is that if used right you can carry more speed into the corner and still make the apex by keeping a more even load on the tyres throughout the whole phase.


I'm not making this stuff up, drivers still do it today in F1 and the main reason they are sometimes asked not to do it us that 1. It uses more fuel, and 2 it interferes with the energy harvest of the KERS systems. You hear it quite a lot over the F1 radio even in 2013.
 
On FWD?

I need to give the RWD cars a go and I'm sure they'll perform better, but nonetheless the FWD stuff feels pretty bleh..

I've also only been using comfort softs as well so maybe it's better on higher grade tyres... still, I don't like how they are being simulated.. lack of grip or otherwise something feels pretty horrid there.

I did actually also, for the first time in GT history, experience the fronts on FWDs ever so gently biting back mid-corner when slight deceleration (or corner geometry) put a tiny bit more weight on them. I never had this feeling with GT5, where FWDs would have you using every trick in the book to make them turn regardless of the setup. The only painfully understeery car I've driven in 6 thus far is the Evo VI TME.
 
Funny thing about the Lancia Stratos.
I used it to complete the Italia Festival in National A. (completely stock, including tires)

At first I was thinking. Something was wrong with it, but after I understood it's driving characteristic it becomes and EXCEPTIONALLY fast car to compete with. Needless to say, I won every race handily. It has such sharp and decisive turn in.

Such a fun car!
 
I have very limited time with the game thus far, only got through the first couple series, coffee break, and license tests.

I've only been driving the preorder Europa, it's one of my favorite cars so I was pretty excited to have it available right off the bat. All my driving has been on Comfort Softs and Sports Hards.

I can't give a full impression of the physics since I'm only driving a light MR, but this car...doesn't feel quite right, and I think it mostly has to do with the tires. I'm used to having the back ready to step out on a car like this, but when I neutralize steering to deal with it I find myself dealing with shockingly abrupt snap oversteer should I go into opposite lock even the tiniest bit. The rate at which the tires gain and lose grip just feels unnatural, especially considering the types of tires I'm running...Obviously MR layouts are very prone to snap oversteer but this just doesn't feel right.

I'm really confused honestly, because I feel like all the progress and improvement I saw in the GTAcademy demo is just sort of...absent. The body roll seems to be back the way it used to be and I feel like there's less subtle feedback from the front wheels than in GT5 even.

I really don't want to get down on this game, like I said I have yet to drive any other cars outside of license tests, but it's hard not to have my mood somewhat dampened when the one car I was most excited about is letting me down right out of the gate.
 
I said leave the throttle open slightly after a blip. as in you blip to downshift but do not come fully off the throttle after the shift is completed, to leave some throttle open during braking to reduce offthrottle oversteer during the braking phase. Like I said it's a pretty commonly used technique to balance offthrottle oversteer in cars.

Schumacher used throttle during braking to increase his cornering speed, he would have an oversteer heavy setup on the car and dial out the oversteer during a corner by running a small ammount of throttle while braking, then he could regulate the turn in during the braking zone based on how much throttle he had on while braking to maximise entry speed.

There was an article comparing Michael Schumachers telemetry with Rubens Barichello and a big discussion about it at the iRacing forums a few years back. The telemetry comparisons showed where Michael was gaining time over Rubens by using throttle during braking, he almost never came fully off the throttle. Rubens drives oldschool and right foot brakes, even in the Ferrari days of F1 he had not switched to left foot braking.


I'm not making this stuff up, drivers still do it today in F1 and the main reason they are sometimes asked not to do it us that 1. It uses more fuel, and 2 it interferes with the energy harvest of the KERS systems. You hear it quite a lot over the F1 radio even in 2013.

Schumacher did gain time on corner entry but overall he really gained on corner exit because of his manipulation of the car with the brakes, that's nothing like what you're describing, he wasn't remaining on the brakes to prevent the car from oversteering, he would dab the brakes to change the balance of the car as i already said. Most of his gains over Barrichello were from the fact that he was using his left foot for braking and Barrichello simply wasn't, there was a gap between brakes and throttle for Rubens which wouldn't have been there had he used his left foot. That said, you're talking about a Formula One car from the 90's and early 2000's which didn't require a clutch for shifting, you can't compare that to a rally car from the 70's. You can't do what Schumacher did in his F1 car in a car like the Stratos if you're actually using the clutch to downshift since you can't be operating the clutch and brakes with your left foot.

When drivers in F1 today are on the throttle while braking it's not what you're describing, what they're doing is going onto the brakes before they fully release the throttle and going onto the throttle before they fully release the brakes, they're not keeping the throttle down during braking, they only do this because it's the same action as operating a clutch, it feels more natural to be pressing down one pedal at the same time the other pedal is coming off. A huge percentage of the braking force in a modern F1 car is in the engine braking, if they were on the throttle through an entire braking zone or even for a slightly prolonged period they would simply wear the brakes out prematurely and be spending more time in the braking zone than required. They would definitely not gain anything.

I don't know anybody who races in real life that would agree with what you're saying in quite the same way you're saying it. Also, the article about Schumacher vs Barrichello isn't a very fair argument, it only demonstrates that Schumacher was a better driver, he would brake later and open the throttle earlier because Barrichello wasn't using left foot braking. Barrichello would have had similar speeds as Schumacher in those comparisons had he simply used his left foot, that's what the difference in technique really comes down to in that comparison. Conversely, had Schumacher been a bit cleaner with the brakes he probably would have actually gained some time himself, but no driver can ever know exactly where the optimum braking point is, which is why he was always feeling the brakes, it was his way of manipulating and feeling the car, but it wasn't the ideal method.
 
I can't agree with that at all, I'm not wrong because it was talked about in the article where as your explanation is your own take on it vs a telemetry analysis of Michaels style, he used throttle during braking to increase entry speed, this is what the telemetry is showing, this is what the article describes and the results are predictable.

It's also a technique that is explained in the Skip Barber racing school, it's a technique that seems so natural and normal to me. I've spent a lot of time reading about different driving styles, techniques and such over the last few years and from my point of view it seems like you're arguing with me about stuff that is well documented and well explained. It's not something I've come up with on my own.
 
Weird that you're seeing that, my experience has been the opposite. Unlike with GT5, when I lift off, the car rotates and stays rotated, I can use the throttle to manage my line through a turn.
This is the most noticeable change between the handling for me....I drive a FF car IRL for autoX and track days and in GT5 the cars just don't react as well as they do IRL. As soon as they put you in that Clio RS in that very beginning tutorial thing I can feel the difference...CS is a lot more pronounced though compare to SH...
 
Managed to find some of it, doesn't tell the whole picture. But atleast this is some of the telemetry in question.


3-cdb57c3edc.jpg


As I said, this is explaining exactly what I was trying to get across.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/36634684/Schumacher-vs-Barrichello
 
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Ok, I'm on the Nürburgring on the small uphill straight just before Adenauer-Forst (I hope that's the correct name of the place as it said that on the Yokohama sign), as I get slightly on the left big curb the car flips on its side. I'm using SS tires and suspension on the Scirocco with the car modified to 492pp, the weight is as light as possible, and no skid recovery was used. It was surprisingly weird. I thought the videos here had modified car suspension that made it easy to flip. But ya it turned out they weren't lying. BTW I was playing in career mode. But how can I go into that section without touching the curb ? .. You can but you have to be a bit slower. Shame.
 
About the physics part:
Are some of you playing with a g27? The physics in the game may be great, but the driving feel through the wheel is way to weird. I have tried my own real life car at a local race track, did some drifting and time attack. The closest to real feeling I have been getting is through the simulator "Live for speed", wich have a great physics engine. Might there be an ultimate setting for steeringwheels in gran turismo? In this game, even though feedback strenght is high or low, the power-assisted steering is on or off, I have to guess wich angle the wheel has to be when doing a drift. The Wheel is not giving any true-world feedback. Dissapointingly, the same problem was occouring in gt5, but now it's even worse. Does somebody have any tips or tricks? This is a beautiful game, but this is just getting on my nerves.
 
I like the new physics, it just feels so much more natural. The tires feel better. On GT5 I'd be sliding around on comfort tires unrealistically but in this I can stay planted like I can in real life. It just feels much more realistic.
 
I found out that the brake balance setting is completely ineffective/doesn't work in offline free run mode, but works perfectly online.
Online, setting the front brake power to 0 online makes braking distances reeeeeaally long. However, at least on stock brakes (on a Firebird Trans Am) even setting the rear brake power to 10 is not enough to lock rear wheels, on comfort tires.
 
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Ok, I'm on the Nürburgring on the small uphill straight just before Adenauer-Forst (I hope that's the correct name of the place as it said that on the Yokohama sign), as I get slightly on the left big curb the car flips on its side. I'm using SS tires and suspension on the Scirocco with the car modified to 492pp, the weight is as light as possible, and no skid recovery was used. It was surprisingly weird. I thought the videos here had modified car suspension that made it easy to flip. But ya it turned out they weren't lying. BTW I was playing in career mode. But how can I go into that section without touching the curb ? .. You can but you have to be a bit slower. Shame.

You have to use that kerb. Try to take almost all of the kerb instead of just a bit. Try to straighten the wheel as much as possible before you touch it to keep the weight of the car towards the center. If you're running a modified suspension, run softer springs. You can also add downforce to help it stay on the ground.
 
I just found out this game has launch control. I don't know if I'm late on discovering this but I found this was neat and now I'm abusing it on my 458.
 
Really? Didn't see any posts about it. How do you do it?

I'm still trying to perfect it so I could at least show it in a video or something. But the concept is generally just like launching a real car. Press the brakes and apply just a little throttle, then gently release the brake pedal and floor the accelerator. This could be specifically wrong since like I said, I'm still trying it out and I'm using a controller, but I would appreciate if others try it out.
 
I'm still trying to perfect it so I could at least show it in a video or something. But the concept is generally just like launching a real car. Press the brakes and apply just a little throttle, then gently release the brake pedal and floor the accelerator. This could be specifically wrong since like I said, I'm still trying it out and I'm using a controller, but I would appreciate if others try it out.
In GT5 launching the 458 Italia in 2nd gear was pretty much a launch control.
 
Managed to find some of it, doesn't tell the whole picture. But atleast this is some of the telemetry in question.


3-cdb57c3edc.jpg


As I said, this is explaining exactly what I was trying to get across.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/36634684/Schumacher-vs-Barrichello

As i already said, Rubens was using his right foot for both braking and throttle, that comparison shows that difference, if you take away the time he loses when switching from throttle to brakes, the times would be very close. It still doesn't change the fact that almost none of that article applies to the car we're talking about, it definitely doesn't mean you should be on the throttle while in a major braking zone in the Stratos, you're comparing apples and oranges here. That article also shows qualifying lap data, i highly doubt Schumacher would be doing this throughout an entire race, the car just wouldn't be able to last.

Dabbing the brakes here and there to change the balance of the car is something i said was useful, but what you originally said was to never lift off the throttle in a braking zone, that's what i'm telling you is wrong and quite frankly makes little sense to me.

If you want to drive the MR cars better (especially Stratos) you should avoid coming off the throttle quickly, infact you should keep on the throttle lightly during braking zones, if you drive it smoothly and avoid coming fully off the throttle it will become a lot easier.

This is pretty realistic, though it's perhaps a little exaggerated. I wouldn't know as I've never driven a real Lancia Stratos, or MR2 but from what I know they aren't the easiest cars to drive fast.

The highlighted text doesn't make sense to me, how would you manage to get the car into gear if you're sitting there with the throttle open the whole time? That may be useful in an F1 car with traction control and fuel cut-off during shifting if you're going for a hotlap, but the disadvantages outweigh the advantages after a few laps even in that rare situation. It's not something that you would even be able to do for more than a few laps at most in a road car with a fully manual gearbox, you would wear down the brakes, the gearbox, and the clutch to nothing. So again, you can't compare an F1 car to the Stratos, they have to be driven in different ways because of the massive difference in the fundamental characteristics between them.

All of this said, i have no trouble driving this car and i'm not even left foot braking at all. If you're taking full advantage of the braking force of the car and getting the braking points correct then you wouldn't have excessive oversteer into a corner and therefore would never need to balance the car using the brakes to begin with.
 
As i already said, Rubens was using his right foot for both braking and throttle, that comparison shows that difference, if you take away the time he loses when switching from throttle to brakes, the times would be very close. It still doesn't change the fact that almost none of that article applies to the car we're talking about, it definitely doesn't mean you should be on the throttle while in a major braking zone in the Stratos, you're comparing apples and oranges here. That article also shows qualifying lap data, i highly doubt Schumacher would be doing this throughout an entire race, the car just wouldn't be able to last.

Dabbing the brakes here and there to change the balance of the car is something i said was useful, but what you originally said was to never lift off the throttle in a braking zone, that's what i'm telling you is wrong and quite frankly makes little sense to me.



The highlighted text doesn't make sense to me, how would you manage to get the car into gear if you're sitting there with the throttle open the whole time? That may be useful in an F1 car with traction control and fuel cut-off during shifting if you're going for a hotlap, but the disadvantages outweigh the advantages after a few laps even in that rare situation. It's not something that you would even be able to do for more than a few laps at most in a road car with a fully manual gearbox, you would wear down the brakes, the gearbox, and the clutch to nothing. So again, you can't compare an F1 car to the Stratos, they have to be driven in different ways because of the massive difference in the fundamental characteristics between them.

All of this said, i have no trouble driving this car and i'm not even left foot braking at all. If you're taking full advantage of the braking force of the car and getting the braking points correct then you wouldn't have excessive oversteer into a corner and therefore would never need to balance the car using the brakes.

The article shows and explains that Michael almost never comes completely off the throttle during braking zones, always maintaining some level of throttle. You cannot dispute that as it is clearly shown in a few examples in the link.

The fact is that it works in the Stratos in GT6 (which is the point here) and it's also a valid real world technique commonly used by arguably the most successful racing driver of all time, additionally it is actually taught in the Skip Barber Racing School. I explained my understanding of the technique that you denied, and now I've given you the exact evidence of what I was talking about, also clearly explaining the technique. Rubens had to lift due to oversteer, but Michael having the brake + throttle on at the same time is directly reducing the chance of that happening.


On to the second point. Break it down, it depends on the corner that you're doing, you may have already shifted down during the straight line but will still be braking into the apex, you don't need your left foot for the clutch at this point. Secondly you don't necessarily need to the clutch to downshift if you rev-match, even if you are shifting down after you start to turn. And the point is that you're not necessarily always constantly on the throttle, but as much as is possible within the limitations of your situation, using it as and when it is required.

I can do it pretty fluently, I can jump between left and right foot braking, I can brake with my right foot and keep the throttle open very slightly while I'm doing it and it all has an effect on the balance of the car. In MR cars using the throttle under braking when needed is something I do a lot. It was that very article I read a few years back on the iRacing forums that I learned of the technique and I spent a lot of time learning to do it. It's not something that I use in a lot of cars, only where needed. I definitely class the Stratos as "where needed" if you ever plan to drive it fast you can almost not avoid to use it.
 
Quick testing last night in the GT500 on Route X confirmed my suspicions; cars still launch arrow-straight with burnouts. I tried in my Mazda 2 and didn't get any hints of torque steer either. Disappointing.
Strange, I would strongly disagree. On most rear wheel drive launches I've gotten some decent torque steer.
 
The article shows and explains that Michael almost never comes completely off the throttle during braking zones, always maintaining some level of throttle. You cannot dispute that as it is clearly shown in a few examples in the link.

The fact is that it works in the Stratos in GT6 (which is the point here) and it's also a valid real world technique commonly used by arguably the most successful racing driver of all time, additionally it is actually taught in the Skip Barber Racing School. I explained my understanding of the technique that you denied, and now I've given you the exact evidence of what I was talking about, also clearly explaining the technique. Rubens had to lift due to oversteer, but Michael having the brake + throttle on at the same time is directly reducing the chance of that happening.

On to the second point. Break it down, it depends on the corner that you're doing, you may have already shifted down during the straight line but will still be braking into the apex, you don't need your left foot for the clutch at this point. Secondly you don't necessarily need to the clutch to downshift if you rev-match, even if you are shifting down after you start to turn. And the point is that you're not necessarily always constantly on the throttle, but as much as is possible within the limitations of your situation, using it as and when it is required.

I can do it pretty fluently, I can jump between left and right foot braking, I can brake with my right foot and keep the throttle open very slightly while I'm doing it and it all has an effect on the balance of the car. In MR cars using the throttle under braking when needed is something I do a lot. It was that very article I read a few years back on the iRacing forums that I learned of the technique and I spent a lot of time learning to do it. It's not something that I use in a lot of cars, only where needed. I definitely class the Stratos as "where needed" if you ever plan to drive it fast you can almost not avoid to use it.

Then it probably would have made more sense if you said to use left-foot braking instead of telling people to never lift off the throttle during braking zones. That's not what left foot braking is. You're now just explaining the obvious to me and avoiding the original comment you made. I can't read your mind, if you mean one thing and say another, don't expect someone to not try and correct you.

In the link, the car being talked about has a fuel cutoff during shifting. Does the Lancia Stratos also have a fuel cutoff during shifting? No. The car in the article doesn't require the use of a foot operated clutch while shifting up or down. Does the Lancia Stratos require a foot operated clutch while shifting up or down? Yes.

Left foot braking is a common technique, on the other hand, keeping the throttle open the entire time even a little while downshifting under heavy braking in a manual transmission car is downright stupid.

I could post an article that claims you can drive the Tesla Roadster without ever having to downshift at all during a braking zone, so that means i should be able to do that in the Stratos, right? I bet if Schumacher did it in the Tesla, then i could do it in the Stratos.
 
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