Gran Turismo 7’s New Physics Are Not Entirely Going Well

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shadow0460
I've been playing since about three months after release and playing in VR since that was released. I think they added more camera movement. Up til yesterday I was fine no matter how long I played. Fifteen laps of Eiger in one of the previous Gr B Subarus though, and I was ready to vomit. I ran the Bvlgari for the next race or two, no help there, so I took off the headset and finished the weekly challenges.
The very first thing I drove in VR was the Raptor. My daily driver is very similar to that, so it looked and felt natural. I drive the F-1500 T/A a lot as well. Very rarely the Raptor will make me sick if the suspension is set too loose. My F-150 is set up fairly tight and has 16 inch rims (as opposed to 15), so it doesn't roll or bounce much. If I get the Raptor even close to that, I'm good.

It's the Countersteer Assist. I think they turned it off. I ran with zero assistance for a couple months and this is exactly what happened with no Countersteer Assist. You can still brake hard at first but as your speed drops you need to let up. Less speed means less down force to keep the butt planted.
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With the amount of elevation changes and frequent hairpins that Eiger features in a short lap, it will always be the worst course for someone sensitive to motion sickness. They likely knew this right away when designing for VR and probably a big reason why they waited to release it until well after the debut of VR to give people more time to build up their tolerance to motion sickness when driving in VR. For anyone playing in VR and sensitive to motion sickness, they should pause their game around laps 4 and 8 of the World Rally Challenge at a point in the lap when you can see the mountains with snow on them off in the distance. Even though the menu options will draw your attention while paused, focus on a point on the mountain off in the distance for at least 2-3 minutes. Then you can continue. Does it break immersion? Of course. But it will prevent you from ever getting so nauseous that you need to take off the headset and then dread playing in VR again for at least another hour or two.

Training your body to be more tolerant to motion sickness is very similar to how the Couch to 5k jogging system works. So technically if your motion sickness is really bad, Eiger is a great course to train on. Do the 12-lap race 3 times a week with a rest day between each day. Pause on every other lap in Week 1. Pause on every 3rd lap in Week 2. Pause on 4th and 8th lap in week 3. Pause on 5th and 10 lap in week 4. Gradually increase the amount of laps without pausing each week until you do the whole 12-lap race and no longer experience motion sickness.
 
MroczMR
I wondering the same thing, and was thinking is my problems with Gallardo i wrote in other thread has anything to do with this glitch. Below I am putting quote of my post about Gallardo being broken with some video proofs.
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Yes, that's what the steering wheel in my Gallardo was doing. Not all the time, most of the time it was smooth and normal. But sometimes, in particular corners, it was doing stuff like that.

One thing I forgot to add is that when provoking the boincing glitch I often see the front wheels turning to impossible angles, like well past 90 degrees of steering angle so you can see the inside of the wheel instead of the outside.

There's something fundamental wrong with the suspension movement and clipping points now, sometimes it manifests in obvious and hilarious ways, sometimes I think it is manifesting in much more subtle ways.

I'm not a fan of the patch. I can't tell what behaviour is intentional and what is borked. I also don't like the low resolution feeling I keep getting when a car is sliding. It feels like a less refined, earlier model to me. It doesn't feel like a progression from the previous version, it feels like a step backwards, to me.

Maybe it's about the type of car we're driving too. I see a lot of love for the GT3 cars on here. Race cars, with downforce, stiff suspension and slick tyres. I prefer driving road cars on road tyres. My Sardegna and La Sarthe grinders feel fine, but every time I hop in a standard road car on sports or comforts, I'm disappointed now.
 
Razgriz2118
The Toyota Space program is going well!

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CarreraGT
Are you suggesting there was an element of countersteer assist always "on" previously? Because the option is still there and I definitely always had it off prior to the update.

Either way, the way cars snap side to side with the assist off is completely unnatural and unrealistic.
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Yes. It's on by default when you install the game.
 
If you can launch cars into the air from pretty much a standstill with extreme suspension settings. Then your suspension physics aren’t realistic. Do that to any real car, it ain’t going to happen. We are their update Guinea pigs. They clearly didn’t test anything before releasing this. It’s not a matter of yeah but who would even do that, such extreme settings. The point is, it shouldn’t do that if you’re boasting about how realistic and better it is. Everybody is claiming this has made it a proper sim yet their physics engine or whatever is allowing this nonsense or computing it. So how realistic can it even be.
 
hawkeyez
If you can launch cars into the air from pretty much a standstill with extreme suspension settings. Then your suspension physics aren’t realistic. Do that to any real car, it ain’t going to happen. We are their update Guinea pigs. They clearly didn’t test anything before releasing this. It’s not a matter of yeah but who would even do that, such extreme settings. The point is, it shouldn’t do that if you’re boasting about how realistic and better it is. Everybody is claiming this has made it a proper sim yet their physics engine or whatever is allowing this nonsense or computing it. So how realistic can it even be.
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hawkeyez
If you can launch cars into the air from pretty much a standstill with extreme suspension settings
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Well then, that's the key to all this mayhem? Extreme Suspension Settings? But why in common sense and normal racing would you do such a thing? Those jokers dug deep to find this exploit to make a joke of the update? They just don't care... and this makes us all look bad....
 
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shadow0460
Yes. It's on by default when you install the game.
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Well I've always had it turned off, so that doesn't explain the issues.

I made a bit of a discovery last night. I've been experimenting predominantly with the E36 M3 and found that the weird oversteer behaviour is largely down to changing tyres.

On stock (CS) tyres, the car handles predictably and is well balanced front to rear. Switching to SH tyres throws the balance out completely and introduces a lot of rear instability at the limit.
 
jrbabbitt
Well then, that's the key to all this mayhem? Extreme Suspension Settings? But why in common sense and normal racing would you do such a thing? Those jokers dug deep to find this exploit to make a joke of the update? They just don't care... and this makes us all look bad....
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Well it sheds light on an error in the physics engine. That’s why. It’s making it freak out. So if it can freak out like that, to me that explains why the other day I was driving a relatively stock vehicle, hardly any tune or changes, hit a curb just right and the back end just launched into the air, car nose dived down into the pavement. In two years, I’ve never ever ran into that once. Running the same line, that car, plenty of cars. So why on earth did it freak out that time? Because there’s a flaw in the system.

These people found it and exaggerated it. Brought it to light.
 
Add another busted car to the list: The 02 RX-7 Spirit. Mine has an engine swap. I went to start the Spa 1 hour race with it but while still under autopilot the car turned twice into the wall. I might try to catch it on a replay later.
 
hawkeyez
We are their update Guinea pigs. They clearly didn’t test anything before releasing this.
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If they didn’t test anything it’s a miracle that we’ve got so few glitches. For such a complex system I would expect hundreds of glitches and bugs if it was untested.
hawkeyez
The point is, it shouldn’t do that if you’re boasting about how realistic and better it is. Everybody is claiming this has made it a proper sim yet their physics engine or whatever is allowing this nonsense or computing it. So how realistic can it even be.
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Acceleration = force / mass. That equation breaks down if the mass is zero, yet it’s a realistic model of how the real world works.

What’s happening with the new suspension physics is probably that there are some exceptions they’ve failed to catch, that doesn’t render the physics model itself bad or unrealistic. You’ll see similar glitches in most simulators, where under some unusual conditions the whole thing just explodes. The more detailed the physics model is, the greater the risk for glitches like this.
 
eran0004
If they didn’t test anything it’s a miracle that we’ve got so few glitches. For such a complex system I would expect hundreds of glitches and bugs if it was untested.

Acceleration = force / mass. That equation breaks down if the mass is zero, yet it’s a realistic model of how the real world works.

What’s happening with the new suspension physics is probably that there are some exceptions they’ve failed to catch, that doesn’t render the physics model itself bad or unrealistic. You’ll see similar glitches in most simulators, where under some unusual conditions the whole thing just explodes. The more detailed the physics model is, the greater the risk for glitches like this.
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If there's no mass, there's nothing to apply any force to, so acceleration of that nothing = 0/0.

Not that it matters. I think you're right, the suspension is behaving normally most of the time, but settings and situations can push it outside of expected boundaries.

In my opinion they've left too many degrees of freedom open on the wheel travel, or they've unknowingly opened some that that were closed in the past. Maybe some equations that can go negative when they should stop at zero.

I say this because we can see wheels vanishing into the wheelarch, front wheels turning through 180 degrees so the inside is facing out, and Samba busses squatting under braking instead of dipping at the nose, and vice versa with then bouncing up from the back wheels under acceleration.

In my opinion, it's all connected and isn't limited to flying, engine swapped cars with unlikely suspension settings. That's just the extreme manifestation. The odd oversteer and understeer that some are finding, odd reactions to hitting kerbs that weren't happening before, glitching steering wheels, cars suddenly veering to one side or the other, Jimnys doing stoppies, flying busses. I think it's all connected and that we're all experiencing it in some form, but in most cases it's subtle enough to not feel like a bug, and explained because we're all expecting the new physics to feel different. So how do we tell design from mistake?

Only PD can do that, and they probably won't tell us. They'll just patch it.
 
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Meythia
The game engine is the same for both generations.
Difference only beeing Sophy not included and graphical fidelity reduced.
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That I know but does different hardware produce same results regard bug?
I ask as I can’t find issue on ps5, although most of my cars are standard.
 
Well it’s not like it took me long to experience weird stuff. I didn’t go searching for it. Ran the stock cobra at spa last night again and got wheel chop, front tires hitting the fenders. I don’t recall that ever happening. I’ve ran that race a lot with the cobra because I like it. Another thing which is probably some AI thing (they seem aggressive now) is it just turned into me, taps my right corner, and my car immediately goes into a wild spin. Like a millisecond and I’m spinning down the straight after en rouge.

Also the sensation going around a sweeper, I get a different type of wheel chop. I think it’s the tires scrubbing, wheel goes light, then tight repeatedly. That was one anomaly that took me ONE lap to find. I think that one is just a weird FFB thing, makes it feel like a ghost is pulling my wheel to the right as I got around a left hand sweeper.

Another one, if you brake hard, wheel goes light (sure, I like that) but you lift off the brake and wheel snaps back in an extreme way. The wheel also shouldn’t get to zero tension. So what’s happening is I’m braking in a straight line, the wheel goes light and sort of turns itself to the right, the tires grip again and it cranks itself back to center. I’ve braked extremely hard in real life before… a semi cut me off because they realized they needed an exit, I slammed the brakes full on, left two blackies about 50 ft long curving to the left as I steered away from it and not once did the steering get feather light and snap back like it does in GT7.

I guess that’s why I ask, did they even test anything? Half this stuff myself and others noticed immediately. So I figured they’re just punching numbers into some physics model, looking at some data and going oh yeah that should do it… not once hopping into game with all wheels available and controller and running some laps. How do they not notice or find anything at all before releasing it?

We are their testers. Anyway hopefully they’re on it and we get an update soon. I’ve played the game more now than I have in weeks lol because I’m desperately trying to get my wheel back to how it was before the update. I can’t but it’s getting a bit better and I’m just frustratingly coming to terms with it.
 
Everpure
Well, then there is a Product Owner who should get fired. It's the PO who prioritises work, not the dev team that "pick and choose". But I also cannot imagine, how even the most basic testing would not have uncovered this.
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Yeah, somebody should get "fired". I'm sure PD is taking notes from your comments.

PD knew about the error. There's no way the test team didn't find such an obvious issue. This release had tons of tie-ins to their event and marketing, they weren't going to push it back due to a non-critical (critical being, crashing your system) bug. The patch was probably halfway through development when we started complaining.
 
kiseca
I'm not convinced the glitch is harmless, nor that it is only manifesting in deliberately manipulated scenarios.

I did the Gallardo weekly challenge yesterday. The front wheel of the green AI car in front of me was bouncing up and down at very high frequency through the second corner, like a car with a broken damper (I haven't seen that on the road for over 30 years now, come to think of it). The AI driver reacted by driving really slowly. One corner later, the matt black / grey Gallardo, also while still on the track, was glitching sideways also at high frequency, while holding the steering at a crazy angle as the AI driver reacted. He was crabbing sideways in a very odd way. Both away from the apex then back towards it. The AI also slowed down a lot in reaction. My own steering wheel, in VR view, glitched a few times instantly jumping to maximum lock and back again. I was in a showroom fresh Gallardo, no tuning or mods. It was hard to tell if the steering glitch was doing something at the front wheels because since the patch I have found the transition from grip to sliding much more jumpy than before, almost like having a slow screen refresh rate. With understeer, instead of smoothly starting to move off line, the car often now just jumps sideways a couple of feet. Not all the time, often it's progressive, but quite regularly it is jerky. Most of the time the wheel turning in view was smooth and normal. I didn't save the replay, unfortunately. I crashed out (all my own work, I think) and restarted the race and had no problems on my final run.

The Jimnys on Eiger are ridiculous, lifting their back wheels off the ground under braking. My own Jimny was doing it too, on standard suspension and tyres.

Others are reporting sudden and unexpected snap oversteer, understeer and cars veering left or right all of a sudden. One noted that in the replay he could see his back wheels bouncing at high frequency at that point in his replay.

It's not frequent, but I think the glitch is showing itself all over the place and that is why reaction to the patch is so divided. Some are getting glitched in ways that are subtle enough that it doesn't feel obviously glitching, just feels like a bad or crude physics model. Others aren't getting glitched and are feeling only an improved model.
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The Gallardo is 100% messed up. I think at the very least everyone could agree the car on stock settings should not be having the wheel snapping bug.

With a stiffer suspension it's mostly fixable, but even then I was using it for the Hypercar challenge this week and on the corkscrew the bug returned. Clipping the sausage kerb in the final turn also resulted in a huge bounce, which with a stiff suspension isn't particularly unexpected, but after landing it did a couple bigger bounces almost flipping over before losing control completely in a very unrealistic way.
 

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