Scaff
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Gran Turismo 7 Confirmed to also launch on PlayStation 4, is a cross-gen title
- Thread starter Vspectra
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- 2,541
- somewhere near Trial Mountain
- oldbusanubis
GT3 was its own thing, hence why it had a new number. If it was GT2 for PS2 it would've been named as such. I mean if we are following your logic then every GT game would be GT1 for x console, which is simply not true. Now granted GT7 looks to be taking mass inspiration from GT4 but I think it'll be different enough from 4 to not be summarized as a GT4 for PS4/5 otherwise they'd name it GT4 Spec 2.0.As GT3 was only GT2 for PS2 i expect GT7 for PS4 being GT7 for PS5
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- 29,996
- Cuddington, Cheshire
- JDA1982
I can’t agree there. Gran Turismo has never been at a level where it competes with the most realistic racing games around at the time. It always maintained a psuedo-realistic approach that allows it to be realistic enough but also accessible to all, especially game pad users. And it’s position really is no different now.
I think as hardware has progressed, we’ve seen an increase in popularity of more hardcore sims, which has highlighted where Gran Turismo falls short of that, that’s all.
Silver Arrows
(Banned)
- 4,715
- Brandon, MB
- Silver-Arrows21
...that falling short is more or less perpetuated by the fact that the series continually has the tag line of 'The Real Driving Simulator' thrown right up on the box art, back cover, advertisement materials, and eventually, trumpeted by people in forums like this. It's sort of self-inflicted in a way, and really, Polyphony could do absolutely anything to prevent this from being continually perpetuated if they don't want their games to be compared to said hardcore sims, and subsequently looking worse in that light.
But they don't. And I wonder why.
They don't care is likely the simple answer.
Silver Arrows
(Banned)
- 4,715
- Brandon, MB
- Silver-Arrows21
They absolutely should, but when you're afforded the protection that being a Japanese developer, in a stable that has increasingly shifted towards a majority of first party devs being based in the West, you are also afforded to not care about the consequences of your actions and the rot that takes place within your series.
maikoheart
(Banned)
- 63
- United States
It's basically just a marketing tagline, it really shouldn't be looked into that much. If there's a food brand that has a tag line with "just like what mom made at home" (unless your mom is a machine specifically designed to make cheap food) it's obviously just a nice little slogan.
It is really not that deep.
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- 13,887
- Adelaide
- Neomone
You should probably tell Kaz that.
- 6,281
- Ottawa
- Pyano1132
Do people really still care that much about a dumb marketing tagline from 1998?
I think it's consensus that the original Gran Turismo was the most impressive game of its time when it came to modelling real world cars in a package that was accessible to casual fans of video games. It wasn't the most realistic or sophisticated driving simulator available even back in 1998, but it presented realistic automobiles in a digestible package for everyone in a way that hadn't really been done before. I think the tagline "The Real Driving Simulator" worked perfectly for what they were going for.
I don't really see it as any different nowadays either. GT still isn't the most realistic sim around but it still presents real cars in a plausible enough manner. Its position in the market relative to hardcore PC sims hasn't really shifted at all in the last few decades.
I think the fact that people are still debating to this day because in 1998 someone in the marketing department at Sony decided to put the world "real" in a slogan is kind of silly. They earned it back in the day, it's part of the series' identity. There's no reason for it to go.
I think it's consensus that the original Gran Turismo was the most impressive game of its time when it came to modelling real world cars in a package that was accessible to casual fans of video games. It wasn't the most realistic or sophisticated driving simulator available even back in 1998, but it presented realistic automobiles in a digestible package for everyone in a way that hadn't really been done before. I think the tagline "The Real Driving Simulator" worked perfectly for what they were going for.
I don't really see it as any different nowadays either. GT still isn't the most realistic sim around but it still presents real cars in a plausible enough manner. Its position in the market relative to hardcore PC sims hasn't really shifted at all in the last few decades.
I think the fact that people are still debating to this day because in 1998 someone in the marketing department at Sony decided to put the world "real" in a slogan is kind of silly. They earned it back in the day, it's part of the series' identity. There's no reason for it to go.
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- 35,280
- Addison,Texas
- GTP_RACECAR
People still having a problem with an out of date tagline?
By that same technicality, we should also inform NASCAR about that "Stock Car" portion in the name (Particularly how out of date it is given that even the new cars are only closer to stock in looks) and let's not forget the by now completely meaningless "DTM" name considering it hasn't been even remotely a "Touring Car" series for decades now.
Frankly, it's an old slogan that isn't going anywhere so the argument and idea that its "false advertising" is kinda pointless (Especially to the casuals its aimed at, who I guarantee do not care anywhere near as much as the hardcore sim fans who cling to this idea purely based on a PC dominated genre). At the end of the day, Its pointless semantics and changing it wouldn't exactly change whether Kaz decides to pay attention to other sims or not (which as this point, I've learned that in itself is a unrewarding fools errand).
By that same technicality, we should also inform NASCAR about that "Stock Car" portion in the name (Particularly how out of date it is given that even the new cars are only closer to stock in looks) and let's not forget the by now completely meaningless "DTM" name considering it hasn't been even remotely a "Touring Car" series for decades now.
Frankly, it's an old slogan that isn't going anywhere so the argument and idea that its "false advertising" is kinda pointless (Especially to the casuals its aimed at, who I guarantee do not care anywhere near as much as the hardcore sim fans who cling to this idea purely based on a PC dominated genre). At the end of the day, Its pointless semantics and changing it wouldn't exactly change whether Kaz decides to pay attention to other sims or not (which as this point, I've learned that in itself is a unrewarding fools errand).
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maikoheart
(Banned)
- 63
- United States
fernandito
(Banned)
- 797
- Spain
You're taking it to an extreme. No serious sim is "inaccesible" once you learn to play it, like any other game.
As a GT1,Gt2,Gt3 player 18 years old back then I have "evolved" as a sim player. Yeah, I played every single track racing game with a controller for many years, but in the end I decided jumping in a wheel when the more serious racers began to appear, and all I want about GT is to return to those beautiful days of playing it, buying and upgrading car parts, but with a physics engine that is on par with new tech and other sims, because I am no longer that young boy playing "sims" on a controller.
Also, with the ammount of money and support Yamauchi has always got from Sony (to the damned point they even dismantled a studio that made such epic quality products, aka Evolution Studios), the least thing this old man could do with his real driving simulator is, to develop a new proper physics engine now that cpus and gpus are very powerful. He simply has no more excuses for being so lazy in that department.
I don't want GT to be totally out of date for another 12 years. I am no longer playing this game like I did in the nineties and early two thousands with a controller, so that's why I want the series to get more serious with physics, and less with the damn photorealism, which is the only department Yamauchi seems to be interested in.
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Scaff
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- ScaffUK
Now unless you are talking about UI/UX here then I fall on the opposite side of this point, I find that the less realistic or accurate a title is, the harder time I have adjusting to it, until it gets past a certain point into a full-blown arcade title, for me, it's like the uncanny valley of racing games.
Titles like FM and GT I find far less accessible from a physics and handling model perspective than the likes of AC, ACC, RF2, etc. as they look and act some of the time like they should (and what I am expecting in comparison to reality), and then an uncanny bit steps in a throws me. GTS's overplayed understeer but with messed up FFB for the loss of Self aligning Torque, or FM everything wants to wag its tail far more than it should.
- 13,887
- Adelaide
- Neomone
It's not so much the tagline, as that Polyphony/Kaz are still under the impression that their game is a highly realistic simulator.
Remember the infamous quote around the sound of GT5: "My perspective is that the sounds are just too real."
Yamauchi: Gran Turismo 5 Sounds "Too Real" | VirtualR.net - 100% Independent Sim Racing News
GTPlanet has released a very interesting exclusive interview with Gran Turismo creator Kazunori Yamauchi.
www.virtualr.net
Gran Turismo's Engine Sounds, Drag Racing, the DeltaWing, & More: Kazunori Yamauchi's 2012 GTPlanet Interview
Kazunori Yamauchi hints at his future plans for the Gran Turismo series, while addressing frequent complaints and questions about GT5.
www.gtplanet.net
That was a problem, because as long as the belief was that the sounds were excellent there was no reason to think that Polyphony would put any effort or resources into changing them in a meaningful way. And in GT6 almost nothing changed with regards to the sounds, bar that they tried to make an engine simulation system for a few cars that was even worse. That mindset clearly changed because they hired an actual professional to manage the sounds for GTS and they're much improved, to the point that the "vacuum cleaner" joke is largely a thing of the past. That's great for everyone, even the people who thought that there was nothing wrong with the sounds before but can enjoy how much better the game sounds now.
There are real issues with the physics of Gran Turismo. Even accepting that Polyphony will sacrifice ultimate realism for playability because that's what their core demographic want, that doesn't necessitate the weird damping physics, the neutered behaviour of FWD cars, the general unresponsiveness to track geometry, and probably any number of other things that people more knowledgable that I could go into. Arguably the game becomes better with these things, because while a proper implementation doesn't really raise the skill floor they absolutely raise the skill ceiling.
Something like Assetto Corsa isn't really any harder to drive for a novice than Gran Turismo (bar the fact that Gran Turismo has far better pad optimisation, but that's not a physics thing), but there is a lot more room to develop your skills as a driver. That's why you get the "hardcore" crowd pushing back against the idea that the physics need to be the way they are for the casual crowd - it's just not true. This is one situation where you can have your cake and eat it too.
The tagline itself isn't a problem, but it is a symbolic representation of the problematic mindset. While the physics in GT has improved somewhat over the years, the idea that it's a realistic simulation is damaging in the same way that the idea that the sounds were too real was damaging. It removes any impetus to keep pushing for something better.
Kaz has espoused in interviews in the past that he thinks that good physics should be easy to drive, and he's not wrong. The whole "harder to drive is better" thing is a holdover from the early days of hardcore sims where that kinda-sorta was true, because it was arcade games versus sims. But modern sims like AC or rF2 or even iRacing are not hard to drive. They're hard to drive fast, but that's true in real life too. That's why racing drivers are professionals who train and dedicate thousands of hours to becoming proficient at their craft. Anyone can go to an open day on a track with their own car and expect to very quickly be able to go around it at speed without plowing into a wall, you'll just be multiple seconds a lap slower than a professional would be.
I'd like to see GT become as realistic as it can be without alienating players, because that's a big part of what it presents itself as. I think that's a lot more realistic than it is right now, and is a far bigger step than we've seen between any two GT games with the possible exception of GT2 to GT3.
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fernandito
(Banned)
- 797
- Spain
Just imagine GT being the same old gooood thing (buying second hand car first time, then upgrading, buying more cars, racing here and there), but with proper physics thanks to new tech, and with every car real rotation degrees (wheel) adjusted automatically everytime you drive and switch among them, like Project Cars and Assetto Corsa have been doing for a damn while already. The ultimate driving game come true, that simple.
But hey no, let's continue to focus on graphics and photorealism...
But hey no, let's continue to focus on graphics and photorealism...
- 35,280
- Addison,Texas
- GTP_RACECAR
Is it really that Kaz believes this, or simply just is in his own bubble when it came to designing the game and because his friend Hirai was over there at Sony, his team could take all the sweet time he wanted and not care about the competition and therefore is in a state of complacency for a long while? I tend to honestly believe that is more what is at hand and kinda what I always believed around the time of GT6. He's essentially been handed a get out of jail free card because even if the games haven't had nearly the sales of earlier games, they've never sold "Poorly" either to really warrant any big and massive changes (Which kinda makes GT Sport all the more an interesting product as it didn't have to exist at all given what I presented regarding sales).It's not so much the tagline, as that Polyphony/Kaz are still under the impression that their game is a highly realistic simulator.
Remember the infamous quote around the sound of GT5: "My perspective is that the sounds are just too real."
Yamauchi: Gran Turismo 5 Sounds "Too Real" | VirtualR.net - 100% Independent Sim Racing News
GTPlanet has released a very interesting exclusive interview with Gran Turismo creator Kazunori Yamauchi.www.virtualr.netGran Turismo's Engine Sounds, Drag Racing, the DeltaWing, & More: Kazunori Yamauchi's 2012 GTPlanet Interview
Kazunori Yamauchi hints at his future plans for the Gran Turismo series, while addressing frequent complaints and questions about GT5.
That was a problem, because as long as the belief was that the sounds were excellent there was no reason to think that Polyphony would put any effort or resources into changing them in a meaningful way. And in GT6 almost nothing changed with regards to the sounds, bar that they tried to make an engine simulation system for a few cars that was even worse. That mindset clearly changed because they hired an actual professional to manage the sounds for GTS and they're much improved, to the point that the "vacuum cleaner" joke is largely a thing of the past. That's great for everyone, even the people who thought that there was nothing wrong with the sounds before but can enjoy how much better the game sounds now.
There are real issues with the physics of Gran Turismo. Even accepting that Polyphony will sacrifice ultimate realism for playability because that's what their core demographic want, that doesn't necessitate the weird damping physics, the neutered behaviour of FWD cars, the general unresponsiveness to track geometry, and probably any number of other things that people more knowledgable that I could go into. Arguably the game becomes better with these things, because while a proper implementation doesn't really raise the skill floor they absolutely raise the skill ceiling.
Something like Assetto Corsa isn't really any harder to drive for a novice than Gran Turismo (bar the fact that Gran Turismo has far better pad optimisation, but that's not a physics thing), but there is a lot more room to develop your skills as a driver. That's why you get the "hardcore" crowd pushing back against the idea that the physics need to be the way they are for the casual crowd - it's just not true. This is one situation where you can have your cake and eat it too.
The tagline itself isn't a problem, but it is a symbolic representation of the problematic mindset. While the physics in GT has improved somewhat over the years, the idea that it's a realistic simulation is damaging in the same way that the idea that the sounds were too real was damaging. It removes any impetus to keep pushing for something better.
Kaz has espoused in interviews in the past that he thinks that good physics should be easy to drive, and he's not wrong. The whole "harder to drive is better" thing is a holdover from the early days of hardcore sims where that kinda-sorta was true, because it was arcade games versus sims. But modern sims like AC or rF2 or even iRacing are not hard to drive. They're hard to drive fast, but that's true in real life too. That's why racing drivers are professionals who train and dedicate thousands of hours to becoming proficient at their craft. Anyone can go to an open day on a track with their own car and expect to very quickly be able to go around it at speed without plowing into a wall, you'll just be multiple seconds a lap slower than a professional would be.
I'd like to see GT become as realistic as it can be without alienating players, because that's a big part of what it presents itself as. I think that's a lot more realistic than it is right now, and is a far bigger step than we've seen between any two GT games with the possible exception of GT2 to GT3.
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- 51,168
- Australia
- SpacedustDaddy
The real telling point was the World Tour where he didn't realise the people buying his games and more importantly, th actual virtual athletes playing for big stakes, STILL played the earlier games.repeat He didn't realise players were still playing the older games and enjoying them!. *repeat*He forgot the joy in the older games. This, the man that made it his vision to make these games.
He obviously keeps thinking ahead at new possibilities and wasn't looking back. Yes, it could be down to him being told GT sales are good and keep making the next game. This would mean a bit of disconnect from what us consumers found to be the fun aspects of the past games. He thought the sport aspect of the newest GT game wouldn't be a problem for GT fans.
Maybe he wants to move forward, now he has to think back and see how to impliment the old games into a new era. Now, he has to back pedal with the tech and literally can't move forward due to being shackled to the old system. He might not be too happy during this cross generation.
He obviously keeps thinking ahead at new possibilities and wasn't looking back. Yes, it could be down to him being told GT sales are good and keep making the next game. This would mean a bit of disconnect from what us consumers found to be the fun aspects of the past games. He thought the sport aspect of the newest GT game wouldn't be a problem for GT fans.
Maybe he wants to move forward, now he has to think back and see how to impliment the old games into a new era. Now, he has to back pedal with the tech and literally can't move forward due to being shackled to the old system. He might not be too happy during this cross generation.
Scaff
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- He/Him
- ScaffUK
This.
Coaching someone to drive a car at say 8/10ths is not than hard, getting to 10/10th is hard, and getting to be able to do so consistently lap after lap is the hard bit, but the fundamentals of driving a car quickly (in reality) are not difficult, and a good (so-called) hard-core sim should be no different at all.
It's when the sim in question steps away from reality that the difference from what should be transferable skills start to be a problem, the GT series lack of Self Aligning Torque reduction is one such example, if you have the muscle memory that it should reduce as understeer builds and a sim doesn't model that it's going to make that title harder and more inaccessible (in comparison to the only benchmark we should actually care about, reality). Even the (so-called) hardcore sims can suffer from this, with the way iRacing's tyre model drops grip off a cliff as soon as the slip limit is reached being another example.
fernandito
(Banned)
- 797
- Spain
Well not having self-aligning torque is just as ridicuolous as telling.
This man seems to invest his always huge and preferent budget into car modelling, graphics and his so much beloved photorealism, which seems to be not only his dream but only focus in the series.
You cannot continue with that policy against the sims we have nowadays. You have to either improve on the physics and driving related stuff, or better evolve. This is not 1998-2005 anymore.
And just insist on the fact that if the huge budget he enjoys would be applied on those aforementioned departments, precisely, GT would come on top on driving simulators very easily, as no other driving sim developer has the Yamauchi's budget to produce their respective games. It is that easy.
I'm starting to think he's got a little old already and should be removed from the lead. Let he dedicate to his photo and event arrange hobbies, and let others with a more modern sim "thinking" to take control of the series, which I'm sure there's a nice bunch of these inside Polyphony capable of taking the series in a "new" direction.
This man seems to invest his always huge and preferent budget into car modelling, graphics and his so much beloved photorealism, which seems to be not only his dream but only focus in the series.
You cannot continue with that policy against the sims we have nowadays. You have to either improve on the physics and driving related stuff, or better evolve. This is not 1998-2005 anymore.
And just insist on the fact that if the huge budget he enjoys would be applied on those aforementioned departments, precisely, GT would come on top on driving simulators very easily, as no other driving sim developer has the Yamauchi's budget to produce their respective games. It is that easy.
I'm starting to think he's got a little old already and should be removed from the lead. Let he dedicate to his photo and event arrange hobbies, and let others with a more modern sim "thinking" to take control of the series, which I'm sure there's a nice bunch of these inside Polyphony capable of taking the series in a "new" direction.
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- 889
- NZL
- colinnola
By accessible I meant to new players, as in those who've never played a racing sim before. And to those who are playing on a controller, the default means of interacting with the console. I've always seen GT as a gateway racing sim. After playing it for a while, you know what you're looking for in your next racing game.
PD are going to have a difficult time with GT7, as they'll have to please those of us with a sim rig as well as those playing on a controller. I think they did a good job with GTS, even though I have drifted over to ACC of late.
Scaff
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- ScaffUK
With a controller, PD has always done a damn good job, which they more than deserve praise for, and I agree that some of the issues do become more noticeable with a wheel. However, some are still clear regardless of the input device.
Sim rig use has certainly become far more common over the last decade and accelerated even further since lock-down and both console mainstays (FM and GT) need to do more to address the issues they currently have to not lose some of the audience. while a much more extreme example, PD would do well to take note of what happened with SMS when they ignored their core audience, but that does also then raise the question of, does GT's core audience actually care if it's accurate or not? Is it the millions of people who buy a GT title and then abandon it after a very short time, or the significantly smaller number who play it over the long term? After all, only 5.5% of players have played in the last week and 84% have never played Sport mode.
Stats | Gran Turismo Sport | kudosprime.com
Stats | Gran Turismo Sport | kudosprime.com
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GT has never not been a graphical showcase for Sony, not sure why they should stop that now
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