Gran Turismo 7 Physics

Do you want more detailed and realistic physics on the next GT

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Ignoring the above.

Dirt tires on the asphalt section of Catalunya Rallycross seem to be roughly approximate to Sports: Soft tyres in terms of grip and characteristics... Though it's a sector that consists of a very small hairpin, a straight and a left hand corner that immediately cuts back onto the dirt. I would imagine Snow tyres might have less grip on the tarmac as they're much more specific in design, but we'd need more mixed surface tracks to know for sure. Specifically tracks like Cathedral Rocks/El Captain where you have one sector that is consistent in both layouts. It'd make comparing performance super easy as you could just go back and forth on a single setup (swapping tires, mind you) and seeing what road tire maps to the dirt/snow tire. Catalunya RX is not great because it runs reverse on the main circuit.
 
SS tyres are said to be like that on the 911 GT3 RS in real life, so maybe it's a realistic enough interpretation of it for rallycross.

Either we get more mixed surface tracks or someone feels like running a rallycross endurance to get a feel for it. It's one of the ways to know for sure what it resembles
 
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AlexWilmot
Honestly mate you should step away from the computer/mobile and take a walk outside because you’re looking silly right now
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Well said! I have no idea how a random nobody thinks it's acceptable to question the world's only real driving simulator! He should be ashamed of himself (and he also shouldn't expect any Christmas presents this year - it's well known that Santa doesn't like naughty boys!)

@wheelhp You better go watch the new Gran Turismo documentary - it's explained several times that Gran Turismo is the most accurate racing simulator ever!
 
Skinny McLean
Well said! I have no idea how a random nobody thinks it's acceptable to question the world's only real driving simulator! He should be ashamed of himself (and he also shouldn't expect any Christmas presents this year - it's well known that Santa doesn't like naughty boys!)
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Oh nice to see you didn’t read any of the messages then, cheers mate
 
wheelhp
Cafe menus never interested me. It got boring quick having your hand held when you already know what you want from the game. "put a wing on a mini" or some bs.
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Oh yeah, this is indeed really bad game design!

I remember my inner dialogue like this:

ME: Yeah, thx for showing me, now I know how to get a wing. Can I continue now?

PD: Sorry, but no, you actually have to do it. Buy the wing now.

ME: But I don't want a wing on this car and I'm low on credits anyway.

PD: Well, we don't care. Buy the wing or your progress stops here.

ME: Dude, WTH? OK, OK, so I will get this medium wing, it doesn't look as awful as the big one on this car.

PD: Uhm, no, you have to buy the big one.

ME:????

PD: Buy the damn wing now!



Seriously, if other games do something like this it's at least free, but here you actually have to buy something you don't want with your own "money".
 
Sir Crashalot
Oh yeah, this is indeed really bad game design!

I remember my inner dialogue like this:

ME: Yeah, thx for showing me, now I know how to get a wing. Can I continue now?

PD: Sorry, but no, you actually have to do it. Buy the wing now.

ME: But I don't want a wing on this car and I'm low on credits anyway.

PD: Well, we don't care. Buy the wing or your progress stops here.

ME: Dude, WTH? OK, OK, so I will get this medium wing, it doesn't look as awful as the big one on this car.

PD: Uhm, no, you have to buy the big one.

ME:????

PD: Buy the damn wing now!



Seriously, if other games do something like this it's at least free, but here you actually have to buy something you don't want with your own "money".
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Yeah I don't like the dumbing down of game mechanics like this, but they've shown that their intent is to get you to spend away your money on various customisation. In GT6 and previous titles I don't remember being forced to upgrade any of my cars in this exact manner. Must just be a trend from mobile gaming, making it's way onto all the console games. It'll likely make a return in GT8 ;/
 
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Is not given the opportunity to use the snow tires on asphalt, because the snow tires present now on GT7 are snow/ ice tires with nails highly specific for those extreme situations, tires that in rallies use ONLY on slopes completely snowy and glued, not with asphalt parts. Thin tires with nails, what do you think would happen to use them on asphalt?

Also I do not share with wheelhp even the part on the road tires, indeed the game helps you by mounting the most performance tires of reality.
We can understand it by going to observe videos and documents of the time, concerning such a car, especially comparing the lap times, at the Nurburgring North there are many official videos and times, from Honda NSX Type R '02 to Skyline R34 to Alfa Romeo Giulia gtam to Porsche etc....try to use the same cars, especially those that are 20 or more years old and you will see that with the hard sports you will go much faster than the real times, you’ll have to downgrade to soft comfort to have a feeling and road times.
 
SamX
Is not given the opportunity to use the snow tires on asphalt, because the snow tires present now on GT7 are snow/ ice tires with nails highly specific for those extreme situations, tires that in rallies use ONLY on slopes completely snowy and glued, not with asphalt parts. Thin tires with nails, what do you think would happen to use them on asphalt?

Also I do not share with wheelhp even the part on the road tires, indeed the game helps you by mounting the most performance tires of reality.
We can understand it by going to observe videos and documents of the time, concerning such a car, especially comparing the lap times, at the Nurburgring North there are many official videos and times, from Honda NSX Type R '02 to Skyline R34 to Alfa Romeo Giulia gtam to Porsche etc....try to use the same cars, especially those that are 20 or more years old and you will see that with the hard sports you will go much faster than the real times, you’ll have to downgrade to soft comfort to have a feeling and road times.
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SS tyres are not given to you from the dealership like they should be on some cars that have VERY grippy tires.

SH tyres are used instead. It's part of the game design of making you pay for things.
 
newmedia_dev
In the real world, if your gonna pay 5k for wing shields then 1.5k on cup sport tires should be a given.

In GT though....economy comes first when it comes to things you can charge for.
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Strange argument...you also get tyres in GT7, just like in the real world-and with the faster cars you also get sport tyres...

If those tyres are SS, SM or SH doesn't rally matter in the end...that's just a thing of personal preference
 
Obelisk
Ignoring the above.

Dirt tires on the asphalt section of Catalunya Rallycross seem to be roughly approximate to Sports: Soft tyres in terms of grip and characteristics...
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What?! No.

Dirt tires on asphalt have grip characteristics like that of a CS tire, or worse. SS tires have TONS of grip, dirt tires have almost none laterally. That sweeping left in the RC layout leads to every car understeering away unless you're going very slow or in a bunch of oversteer.

This isn't just my opinion either. The RC layout and dirt tires grip on asphalt is something that has long been complained about. IRL dirt tires on tarmac would be much better than it is represented in game.


EDIT: just got done making a video about this using a stock '04 WRX and isolating only that corner at Catalunya. I'll post it and the results when it's uploaded.


EDIT dos: The results are mostly what I expected, but there's definitely more to it than just a decreased amount of grip. It seems like the dirt tire on asphalt does have a bit of accelerative grip, but the lateral grip of them is very, very low. They were faster through the corners than I thought they would be, but they also numb the feedback from the wheel and you lose all steering feel.

In my opinion they feel like a comfort hard/medium with feedback turned down to almost nothing. The mph through the corners is similar between them, as well as how easy it is for the car to overwhelm them into wheelspin. You can see just how much the car struggles to overwhelm the grip of the tires as they get grippier/stiffer.

If you're bored by all that, then you can just watch what amounts to me beating on a WRX and doing a bunch of e-brake turns for 40 minutes, haha. It was a super fun video to make.

 
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newmedia_dev
In the real world, if your gonna pay 5k for wing shields then 1.5k on cup sport tires should be a given.

In GT though....economy comes first when it comes to things you can charge for.
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Agree there. Plenty of people have been talking about it. There are quite a few cars that should come with SS tyres if GT7 wants to be remotely realistic there..but no they come with SH instead, this could be for a variety of game design reasons. Originally thought SH tyres worked better in wet than SS so they didn't want people freaking out not being able to drive it in the wet, but that theory fell through.. SS tires do okay enough in the wet, better than most the slicks anywho.

Everyone puts racing tyres on everything so it's a very minor thing in favor of spending MTX.. but still would've been nice to have that extra realism.. and of course free high performance tyres for a high performance car
 
Batschisane52
Strange argument...you also get tyres in GT7, just like in the real world-and with the faster cars you also get sport tyres...

If those tyres are SS, SM or SH doesn't rally matter in the end...that's just a thing of personal preference
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But all sports tires are not made equal.

In GT they are. The difference is that most Ferraris, Lambos, massers, Porsches at the top end come with premium tyres. I mean you opt out of them.

The issue is that the difference in car handling is stark with say a Valkyrie on SM or an MC20 on SM vs sports hards.

99% of those owners wouldn't have navigated the first roundabout on those tires.

Genuinely would you buy a super car on GT7 selected tires?
 
A lot of things in GT7 have still not been corrected from a "realism" standpoint.. same with other gran turismo games.

Also the way swaybars work is still a bit iffy. I find many GT7 tuners prefer dead even swaybar values. This is completely wrong to how it should be.

For me the other main physics culprit is rear mounted differential working a lot differently than it should. In combination with the tyre model and overal physics, it's actually better to drift with less initial torque than fully welded/locked... the tyres grip up too much and you can't control the car. This comes down to the tyre model lacking more detail and progression in grip loss... overall Much different drift tuning than IRL. On a wheel it's probably much better but on a controller you have to find some very weird physics exploits to get desired control of the car.

If anyone has played Wreckfest on PS5, that game, an arcade game through and through mind you, might as well have the best drift handling on a controller, and additionally, gives you a button for the clutch. GT7 doesn't even come close to the sensation of progressive grip loss and sliding round corners in Wreckfest. Add to that Wreckfest even simulates snow and dirt fairly realistically on a controller... it's satisfying to master
 
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wheelhp
A lot of things in GT7 have still not been corrected from a "realism" standpoint.. same with other gran turismo games.

Also the way swaybars work is still a bit iffy

For me the other main physics culprit is rear mounted differential working a lot differently than it should. In combination with the tyre model and overal physics, it's actually better to drift with less initial torque than fully welded/locked... the tyres grip up too much and you can't control the car. This comes down to the tyre model lacking more detail and progression in grip loss... overall Much different drift tuning than IRL. On a wheel it's probably much better but on a controller you have to find some very weird physics exploits to get desired control of the car.
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100% agree. Anti roll bar physics is not quite correct.

The diff stuff is really weird as well. In that all the cars come with weird neutral diff settings which sort of negates the point of a diff in the first place.

Transfer boxes and 2 diff setups get the most love but the FF LSDs are so aggressive out of the box it's crazy. The latest TT in the civic shows that.

The RWD doesn't fair much better in that they are snappy, which is fine but recovery is much much slower. Where you could power out with the LSD in a real car in GT the tendency is to lock it at a certain point and that's fine but to catch the slip you have to lift off and ride the slide for a second or two. That's real world behaviour to be fair but without the feel in GT it is the norm rather than the optimum.

It just feels a bit off kilter if you've ever driven these sorts of cars in anger or at pace.
 
newmedia_dev
100% agree. Anti roll bar physics is not quite correct.

The diff stuff is really weird as well. In that all the cars come with weird neutral diff settings which sort of negates the point of a diff in the first place.

Transfer boxes and 2 diff setups get the most love but the FF LSDs are so aggressive out of the box it's crazy. The latest TT in the civic shows that.

The RWD doesn't fair much better in that they are snappy, which is fine but recovery is much much slower. Where you could power out with the LSD in a real car in GT the tendency is to lock it at a certain point and that's fine but to catch the slip you have to lift off and ride the slide for a second or two. That's real world behaviour to be fair but without the feel in GT it is the norm rather than the optimum.

It just feels a bit off kilter if you've ever driven these sorts of cars in anger or at pace.
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Yeah for me GT7 feels like it still needs a lot of polish, or they could do what they probably won't: Increase the detail and simulation of the tyre model, if they did that, I'd have much less to complain about. But as it stands GT7 really feels like GT Sport's phsycis model got an update where they removed the limits of some things and added in some new things to make it feel new, which it did work. But that's it in regards to physics. A somewhat expected Evolution instead of revolution unfortunately.

I would hope we get at least 2 more big updates to overhaul the tyre physics especially, because I can see what they're going for but it's clearly not perfect yet, that's a worry this far into the game's life, but as with GT6, physics updates late into a game's life is possible again. It's funny cause Cars in GT7 are a bit harder to drive than they should be, but in GT Sport, they were almost too easy. Maybe for GT7, that's a good thing according to Kaz, but damn, would prefer if they could get it bang-on instead, starting with an accurate tyre model..rather than the over-simplified model they've settled on because it's going to be better for the framerate of both consoles.
 
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newmedia_dev
100% agree. Anti roll bar physics is not quite correct.

The diff stuff is really weird as well. In that all the cars come with weird neutral diff settings which sort of negates the point of a diff in the first place.

Transfer boxes and 2 diff setups get the most love but the FF LSDs are so aggressive out of the box it's crazy. The latest TT in the civic shows that.

The RWD doesn't fair much better in that they are snappy, which is fine but recovery is much much slower. Where you could power out with the LSD in a real car in GT the tendency is to lock it at a certain point and that's fine but to catch the slip you have to lift off and ride the slide for a second or two. That's real world behaviour to be fair but without the feel in GT it is the norm rather than the optimum.

It just feels a bit off kilter if you've ever driven these sorts of cars in anger or at pace.
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Anti roll bar never work right. I always prefer to leave it at 1. Little bit of body roll but more natural feeling.

Height setting also is weird. Bottoming out on front wheel is a problem on breaking and tall setting are always better than low setting. (Orrible to see in replay :P)

Differential (ff car is always a no) but in rwd, work the same in all cars.
Open open open in breaking for turn in, and set step by step lose to hard in acceleration due to come from slipping and loose to neutral to Snap Oversteering in a click. (No Understeering due to Differential)

I've like the progression from gt7 release (a big mess) to now were with a proper setting you can enjoy drive but i lost hope they put a real change for better in this release. In gt8 we hope!
 
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In previous GTs someone got into the game code for ARBs, each axle had its own hidden ranges with proper kgf/mm ratings. The axles were not the same ranges (obviously this is car dependent). So a 4/4 ARB could actually mean the front was a lot stiffer, simply because the whole of the front's range was stiffer, pound for pound, than the rear.

From memory one axle data that was posted had a ~1.5 or 2x adjustment across a range i.e. max stiffness was around 1.5 or 2x min stiffness (for that specific axle and car).

Would be great if we had actual stiffness values in GT7.
 
bread82
In previous GTs someone got into the game code for ARBs, each axle had its own hidden ranges with proper kgf/mm ratings.
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Well that's a good start, I wouldn't have expected it. I'm glad But baffled as to why it's still not working properly in GT7.
 
Yeah they can be tricky to set, especially at higher stiffnesses. Hard to tell whether the physics model needs work or whether certain settings are just iffy vs what would be sensible in real life.

I always get springs set first, with ARBs either at default or just minimum 1/1. Then the ARBs can be used for small mid corner tweaks.

Apparently "big bar soft spring" is a thing in real life, I've tried it in GT but it's never been to my liking. A big rear bar on FF cars can help in GT though, and this is true to real life.
 
I drove the GT2 cars around the Red Bull Ring in ACC last night for an upcoming race and it highlighted the shortcomings of GT7's tyre model like never before. I know the Red Bull Ring very well as it's one of my favourite tracks, and the GT2 cars are unique in that they have less downforce than a GT3 car but produce more power, so the mechanical grip is more noticeable. I recall Martin Brundle saying that a certain amount of "slip" is required to get the car turned, and last night I understood what he was on about. As I steered through the corners, I could feel the tyres slipping across the surface of the road in a lot more detail compared to GT7. I've always known about the physical tyre model that ACC uses but I've never been able to get a proper feel for it because the downforce takes precedence over mechanical grip on a GT3 car. As a GT2 car has less aero, the quality of the tyre model really shines through and it's an absolute revelation. I was then reminded of the tyre model in the standard AC, which, despite being worse than ACC, is still ahead of GT7. To reach that next level of simulation, GT needs to change it's tyre model to a beam and node setup, with multiple points of contact feeding back into the physics engine. A faster refresh rate is also needed.
 
I wish PD would do something about its tyres, especially the feedback.

Also, I have had, on a few rare occasions, an anomaly pertaining to the grip of a particular tyre and it happened again early this week. Basically, in a car I know well, on Mediums, I had a disaster of a race due to total lack of grip. It was like I was driving around on Wets. Seriously.

I thought I must just be having a seriously bad day. However, I saw a YouTube vid from the great Martin “Tidgney” Grady yesterday. He was experiencing the same thing - on Wets at Spa but felt like he was still on slicks!

Anyone else experienced this?
 
Tuono_GT
I wish PD would do something about its tyres, especially the feedback.

Also, I have had, on a few rare occasions, an anomaly pertaining to the grip of a particular tyre and it happened again early this week. Basically, in a car I know well, on Mediums, I had a disaster of a race due to total lack of grip. It was like I was driving around on Wets. Seriously.

I thought I must just be having a seriously bad day. However, I saw a YouTube vid from the great Martin “Tidgney” Grady yesterday. He was experiencing the same thing - on Wets at Spa but felt like he was still on slicks!

Anyone else experienced this?
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Full wets should only be used when its fully wet meaning meter being blue otherwise they dont work properly iirc
 
Tuono_GT
I wish PD would do something about its tyres, especially the feedback.

Also, I have had, on a few rare occasions, an anomaly pertaining to the grip of a particular tyre and it happened again early this week. Basically, in a car I know well, on Mediums, I had a disaster of a race due to total lack of grip. It was like I was driving around on Wets. Seriously.

I thought I must just be having a seriously bad day. However, I saw a YouTube vid from the great Martin “Tidgney” Grady yesterday. He was experiencing the same thing - on Wets at Spa but felt like he was still on slicks!

Anyone else experienced this?
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I haven't Tidgney's video but I did learn (yesterday) that there's more grip off of the racing line in the wet. I tested it out (after learning about it in Sport/Spa) and it worked.

I was running intermediates and the water meter was about where you need to run Wets. Braking/accelerating on the racing line was terrible, it felt slick/greasy. But off of it, I had loads more grip.
 

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