Gran Turismo 7 Physics

[sonnyboychris]

I wish PD would do something about its tyres, especially the feedback.

Also, I have had, on a few rare occasions, an anomaly pertaining to the grip of a particular tyre and it happened again early this week. Basically, in a car I know well, on Mediums, I had a disaster of a race due to total lack of grip. It was like I was driving around on Wets. Seriously.

I thought I must just be having a seriously bad day. However, I saw a YouTube vid from the great Martin “Tidgney” Grady yesterday. He was experiencing the same thing - on Wets at Spa but felt like he was still on slicks!

Anyone else experienced this?

I haven't Tidgney's video but I did learn (yesterday) that there's more grip off of the racing line in the wet. I tested it out (after learning about it in Sport/Spa) and it worked.

I was running intermediates and the water meter was about where you need to run Wets. Braking/accelerating on the racing line was terrible, it felt slick/greasy. But off of it, I had loads more grip.

 

[snc]

I haven't Tidgney's video but I did learn (yesterday) that there's more grip off of the racing line in the wet. I tested it out (after learning about it in Sport/Spa) and it worked.

I was running intermediates and the water meter was about where you need to run Wets. Braking/accelerating on the racing line was terrible, it felt slick/greasy. But off of it, I had loads more grip.

Yes wet lines are simulated in gt7

 

[wheelhp]

I drove the GT2 cars around the Red Bull Ring in ACC last night for an upcoming race and it highlighted the shortcomings of GT7's tyre model like never before. I know the Red Bull Ring very well as it's one of my favourite tracks, and the GT2 cars are unique in that they have less downforce than a GT3 car but produce more power, so the mechanical grip is more noticeable. I recall Martin Brundle saying that a certain amount of "slip" is required to get the car turned, and last night I understood what he was on about. As I steered through the corners, I could feel the tyres slipping across the surface of the road in a lot more detail compared to GT7. I've always known about the physical tyre model that ACC uses but I've never been able to get a proper feel for it because the downforce takes precedence over mechanical grip on a GT3 car. As a GT2 car has less aero, the quality of the tyre model really shines through and it's an absolute revelation. I was then reminded of the tyre model in the standard AC, which, despite being worse than ACC, is still ahead of GT7. To reach that next level of simulation, GT needs to change it's tyre model to a beam and node setup, with multiple points of contact feeding back into the physics engine. A faster refresh rate is also needed.

I'm not sure why this is still a revelation for people. You should know by now that GT7 is far behind the curve when it comes to racing simulations and driving physics. whats the point of laser scanned tracks if the physics aren't matching in fidelity?

Nobody even talks abouthow many points of contact are in the GT7 tyre model. Either it sucks or isnt known because it sucks. Every real sim has an ongoing debate on the tyre model. Yet you ask any bog standard GT7 player and they dont have a clue what a tire model is or what a good one looks like. They're likely also 12 years old. Majority of sim players moved on from GT7 a long time ago when they experienced the lack of detailed physics.

The only way GT7 stays relevant is on a console where the players are mostly stuck to a controller and couldn't tell a clean pass from a dirty one. Bigshot PC sims like ac acc and iracing hell even Live for speed... So many PC sims just completely embarass GT7 since day 1

 

[LeGeNd-1]

Yes wet lines are simulated in gt7

Wet lines are simulated yes, but only if the race starts dry and then progressively gets wetter. Apart from the normal line being slipperier due to the rubber buildup, your tyre also picks up marbles off line and this sorta gives it more "grooves" to clear the water better.

However, if the track is wet from the start (i.e. it has been raining for a while), it's faster to stick to the usual line. At this point the rubber on the normal racing line and the marbles off line has been washed off completely, so just take the normal racing line as usual to open up the corners. No extra grip to be had driving funky lines. As proven in this wet Spa TT a few months back, all of the top laps drive normal lines.


Also, I reckon the gap between inters and wets in GT is too small under full wet conditions (either that, or the track never gets to fully flooded conditions where inters are useless). Even at the 2nd bar of wetness there's only like 1-2 secs difference between inters and wets. But as soon as the track starts to dry, the wets just loses multiple seconds to the inters and degrades quickly. Combined with the accelerated weather, the inters is just a more versatile tyre overall because you'll be okay driving it anywhere from 1/3-2/3 wetness. Whereas the wets are only slightly better at 80% plus wetness (which rarely happens).

------------------

Moving on to another topic, I'm surprised no one noticed the physics has been slightly changed with the last update. Now if you mostly drive race cars with wings and slicks, it can be hard to detect. But I drive road cars on a daily basis on the Nordschleife on my route to tune every car in the game, so I noticed a few things has changed. Initially I thought it's just placebo effect but I have also been re-doing the Master Licenses recently and it's especially noticeable on the old cars with soft suspension and on dirt/snow. Last week's Daily A (MX5 at Willow Horse Thief) also shows quite a difference in car behaviour (I was rank 180 ish at the end so I spent quite some time here and can compare before/after update).

Summarising the changes:

• Weight transfer seems to have been toned down again.
• Tyre grip loss is more progressive e.g. blending between trail braking to cornering is less severe than before, and also on comfort/sport tyres when you oversteer it's easier to hold a nice 4 wheel drift.
• The Master License with Countach at last sector of Grand Valley is prime example of this (or any old car on undulating track). Pre update the heavy rear is very hard to tame and when you do breakaway it's very snappy. Now it's more progressive and you can maintain slides better. Still tricky to drive, but not manic and OTT like before.
• The MX5 at Willow is also obvious. The first turn with a dip at the apex can unsettle the car dramatically pre update, now it's less severe. Also coming out of all those 2nd gear hairpins it's very easy to induce oversteer before, now you can get away with a lot of throttle and if a slide does occur it's much smaller.
• A lot less understeer on snow/dirt. I suspected something changed when I did the Urus weekly challenge, but put it down to the SUV being exceptionally good offroad. Then I redid the snow license (Celica at last sector Lake Louise) and it's so easy to rotate the car now. No more terminal understeer, you can use scandi flicks to set up the car for corners as in real life. The car grips under acceleration and actually moves forward instead of just pinging off the rev limiter.

Now the bad part: I feel like the FFB has been toned down again. For reference I'm using T-GT, FFB Torque 3, FFB Sens 1. Road feel seems to be less detailed and there's a lot of centering spring feel. Tried increasing FFB Sens but it doesn't do much (seriously, I have never detected any difference with this setting between 1-10). It's not as numb as GT Sport, but pre update it was the best GT's FFB has gotten. Now it's kinda meh again. The cynic in me feels this is due to the new Fanatec GT DD Extreme's FullForce implementation and PD trying to get people to upgrade by nerfing FFB with other wheels. Or (more likely) the new more sedate suspension physics have muted the road feel. Either way, as people have said FFB is still miles behind titles such as AC/ACC. The new physics is a step in the right direction, but PD really need to get a leg up on FFB (and give us more adjustment sliders) in GT8.

Just my 2 cents. Maybe it's all just in my head but as a "road car specialist" some of the behaviour pre and post update are quite stark. I did drive a few Gr.3/4 and the GT-One TT (2 secs off top time, for reference), and the changes are much harder to detect with these stiffly sprung high grip cars. It's there, but only if you already know what to look for. If I only drive race cars (like a lot of people here) I probably would have missed the changes.

 

[Kriptical]

Wet lines are simulated yes, but only if the race starts dry and then progressively gets wetter. Apart from the normal line being slipperier due to the rubber buildup, your tyre also picks up marbles off line and this sorta gives it more "grooves" to clear the water better.

However, if the track is wet from the start (i.e. it has been raining for a while), it's faster to stick to the usual line. At this point the rubber on the normal racing line and the marbles off line has been washed off completely, so just take the normal racing line as usual to open up the corners. No extra grip to be had driving funky lines. As proven in this wet Spa TT a few months back, all of the top laps drive normal lines.


Also, I reckon the gap between inters and wets in GT is too small under full wet conditions (either that, or the track never gets to fully flooded conditions where inters are useless). Even at the 2nd bar of wetness there's only like 1-2 secs difference between inters and wets. But as soon as the track starts to dry, the wets just loses multiple seconds to the inters and degrades quickly. Combined with the accelerated weather, the inters is just a more versatile tyre overall because you'll be okay driving it anywhere from 1/3-2/3 wetness. Whereas the wets are only slightly better at 80% plus wetness (which rarely happens).

------------------

Moving on to another topic, I'm surprised no one noticed the physics has been slightly changed with the last update. Now if you mostly drive race cars with wings and slicks, it can be hard to detect. But I drive road cars on a daily basis on the Nordschleife on my route to tune every car in the game, so I noticed a few things has changed. Initially I thought it's just placebo effect but I have also been re-doing the Master Licenses recently and it's especially noticeable on the old cars with soft suspension and on dirt/snow. Last week's Daily A (MX5 at Willow Horse Thief) also shows quite a difference in car behaviour (I was rank 180 ish at the end so I spent quite some time here and can compare before/after update).

Summarising the changes:

• Weight transfer seems to have been toned down again.
• Tyre grip loss is more progressive e.g. blending between trail braking to cornering is less severe than before, and also on comfort/sport tyres when you oversteer it's easier to hold a nice 4 wheel drift.
• The Master License with Countach at last sector of Grand Valley is prime example of this (or any old car on undulating track). Pre update the heavy rear is very hard to tame and when you do breakaway it's very snappy. Now it's more progressive and you can maintain slides better. Still tricky to drive, but not manic and OTT like before.
• The MX5 at Willow is also obvious. The first turn with a dip at the apex can unsettle the car dramatically pre update, now it's less severe. Also coming out of all those 2nd gear hairpins it's very easy to induce oversteer before, now you can get away with a lot of throttle and if a slide does occur it's much smaller.
• A lot less understeer on snow/dirt. I suspected something changed when I did the Urus weekly challenge, but put it down to the SUV being exceptionally good offroad. Then I redid the snow license (Celica at last sector Lake Louise) and it's so easy to rotate the car now. No more terminal understeer, you can use scandi flicks to set up the car for corners as in real life. The car grips under acceleration and actually moves forward instead of just pinging off the rev limiter.

Now the bad part: I feel like the FFB has been toned down again. For reference I'm using T-GT, FFB Torque 3, FFB Sens 1. Road feel seems to be less detailed and there's a lot of centering spring feel. Tried increasing FFB Sens but it doesn't do much (seriously, I have never detected any difference with this setting between 1-10). It's not as numb as GT Sport, but pre update it was the best GT's FFB has gotten. Now it's kinda meh again. The cynic in me feels this is due to the new Fanatec GT DD Extreme's FullForce implementation and PD trying to get people to upgrade by nerfing FFB with other wheels. Or (more likely) the new more sedate suspension physics have muted the road feel. Either way, as people have said FFB is still miles behind titles such as AC/ACC. The new physics is a step in the right direction, but PD really need to get a leg up on FFB (and give us more adjustment sliders) in GT8.

Just my 2 cents. Maybe it's all just in my head but as a "road car specialist" some of the behaviour pre and post update are quite stark. I did drive a few Gr.3/4 and the GT-One TT (2 secs off top time, for reference), and the changes are much harder to detect with these stiffly sprung high grip cars. It's there, but only if you already know what to look for. If I only drive race cars (like a lot of people here) I probably would have missed the changes.

I can tell you that full force is not, in any way, implemented with the dd extreme yet and also that pd nerfed the ffb on the extreme the previous patch. With not a peep about it. Really have no idea whats going on with PD / Sony…

 

[LeGeNd-1]

I can tell you that full force is not, in any way, implemented with the dd extreme yet and also that pd nerfed the ffb on the extreme the previous patch. With not a peep about it. Really have no idea whats going on with PD / Sony…

Ok that's good to know the problem applies to all wheels and not just PD favouring Fanatec. But still perplexing why they decided to suddenly nerf the FFB. It's a real shame because somewhere beneath it the physics is as good as it's ever been, but there's no road feel and the center spring force just overpowers all the other useful physics information. I tried bumping up the Torque to 4 but you just get too much clipping. Down to Torque 2 and the wheel is limp like it's broken. So frustrating.

 

[Yes No]

Ok that's good to know the problem applies to all wheels and not just PD favouring Fanatec. But still perplexing why they decided to suddenly nerf the FFB. It's a real shame because somewhere beneath it the physics is as good as it's ever been, but there's no road feel and the center spring force just overpowers all the other useful physics information. I tried bumping up the Torque to 4 but you just get too much clipping. Down to Torque 2 and the wheel is limp like it's broken. So frustrating.

They put a cap of around 7nm on the Logitech G Pro and claimed it was for "safety" reasons.

It's bs and really have no clue why they would do that. Other games like ACC and Wreckfest do not have a cap on the Logitech and probably don't have a cap on the Fanatec either(don't have it so I can only assume).

I'm using a drivehub with my G Pro for GT7 since my wheel is pc only. Drivehub added a feature starting with beta 13 that will increase the FFB up to the full 11nm torque for the G Pro. I've been using it for a month at the full 11nm torque along with trueforce at 100, controller vibration at 125, FFB torque and sensitivity (in game) at 10 and have not felt anything unsafe so far. The only thing I've noticed was a high amount of oscillation when using a high downforce car like the Porsche 962C.... I was able to get rid of most of the oscillation by setting the FFB filter to 1.

I guess I could understand if they put a disclaimer and agreement in the game that warns players of a possibility (though very low) of injury before allowing them to go to full torque. Putting a locked cap in the game just doesn't make any sense to me.

I have no clue if the current firmware for the drivehub supports Fanatec wheels getting past the cap, but I'd imagine that it would be possible. Here is a link to the drivehub thread if anyone wants to go over there and ask if they could add the torque boost feature for Fanatec wheels (I've never used Fanatec so I really don't have a clue if it's even possible but wouldn't hurt to ask).

Drive Hub Racing Wheel Converter

Drive Hub Racing Wheel Converter (see my review & score Drive Hub for yourself) From Collective Minds, the clever people behind the CronusMax Plus PS4 Wheel Edition comes the Drive Hub Racing Wheel Converter. "Drive Hub is a revolutionary, industry-first cross over gaming adapter that makes...

www.gtplanet.net

 

[LeGeNd-1]

They put a cap of around 7nm on the Logitech G Pro and claimed it was for "safety" reasons.

It's bs and really have no clue why they would do that. Other games like ACC and Wreckfest do not have a cap on the Logitech and probably don't have a cap on the Fanatec either(don't have it so I can only assume).

I'm using a drivehub with my G Pro for GT7 since my wheel is pc only. Drivehub added a feature starting with beta 13 that will increase the FFB up to the full 11nm torque for the G Pro. I've been using it for a month at the full 11nm torque along with trueforce at 100, controller vibration at 125, FFB torque and sensitivity (in game) at 10 and have not felt anything unsafe so far. The only thing I've noticed was a high amount of oscillation when using a high downforce car like the Porsche 962C.... I was able to get rid of most of the oscillation by setting the FFB filter to 1.

I guess I could understand if they put a disclaimer and agreement in the game that warns players of a possibility (though very low) of injury before allowing them to go to full torque. Putting a locked cap in the game just doesn't make any sense to me.

I have no clue if the current firmware for the drivehub supports Fanatec wheels getting past the cap, but I'd imagine that it would be possible. Here is a link to the drivehub thread if anyone wants to go over there and ask if they could add the torque boost feature for Fanatec wheels (I've never used Fanatec so I really don't have a clue if it's even possible but wouldn't hurt to ask).

Drive Hub Racing Wheel Converter

Drive Hub Racing Wheel Converter (see my review & score Drive Hub for yourself) From Collective Minds, the clever people behind the CronusMax Plus PS4 Wheel Edition comes the Drive Hub Racing Wheel Converter. "Drive Hub is a revolutionary, industry-first cross over gaming adapter that makes...

www.gtplanet.net

The problem isn't the strength, it's the detail. I'm using T-GT at Torque 3 and it's already powerful enough for me. Anything more than that and the FFB starts to clip. Anything lower and it's too weak. So Torque 3 is perfect. The problem is before the update I get good road and suspension feel, whereas now it's back to old numb GT FFB where the track feels like glass, coupled with this weird centering spring effect that makes the FFB feel non-linear.

Maybe on DD wheel it's different but the actual wheel torque itself has never been an issue for me (even back when I was using a dinky old Logitech G25). It's the detail that has always been missing in GT. Playing AC/ACC with G25 it gives me more detail than playing GT7 with T-GT.

 

[Yes No]

The problem isn't the strength, it's the detail. I'm using T-GT at Torque 3 and it's already powerful enough for me. Anything more than that and the FFB starts to clip. Anything lower and it's too weak. So Torque 3 is perfect. The problem is before the update I get good road and suspension feel, whereas now it's back to old numb GT FFB where the track feels like glass, coupled with this weird centering spring effect that makes the FFB feel non-linear.

Maybe on DD wheel it's different but the actual wheel torque itself has never been an issue for me (even back when I was using a dinky old Logitech G25). It's the detail that has always been missing in GT. Playing AC/ACC with G25 it gives me more detail than playing GT7 with T-GT.

Yeah I totally understand. I just figured I'd mention that part about the DD wheels. I haven't had any issue with clipping or loss of detail with my setup... Trueforce is a very different experience that really focuses on the detail (at least in my opinion). If full force ever gets implemented, I'd be willing to bet that it will feel very similar to the trueforce. I really can't think of any good advice to give you about the loss of detail in your wheel, I guess that's just how it's going to be unless PD does something to fix it.

 

[sonnyboychris]

The new physics is a step in the right direction, but PD really need to get a leg up on FFB (and give us more adjustment sliders) in GT8.

Naw, they need to give it to us now. We've sat through two generations of garbage FFB and I'm tired of saying "maybe next time". Before we know it, we'll be on here saying "maybe we'll get it in GT12...".

BTW, I loved everything about your post in its entirety.

 

[Td04]

Just come back on the game After 1 year and doing some session,on both gt7 and AC, with same Cars on Laguna seca to comparing them (ps5).
Are people still here saying bull****s about the better ac's tyre and suspension model?
Are we playing the same game? Cause gt7 is way better than ac.

Tyre and suspension model are both a disaster on ac.

 

[LSFDRX]

I'm not sure why this is still a revelation for people. You should know by now that GT7 is far behind the curve when it comes to racing simulations and driving physics. whats the point of laser scanned tracks if the physics aren't matching in fidelity?

Nobody even talks abouthow many points of contact are in the GT7 tyre model. Either it sucks or isnt known because it sucks. Every real sim has an ongoing debate on the tyre model. Yet you ask any bog standard GT7 player and they dont have a clue what a tire model is or what a good one looks like. They're likely also 12 years old. Majority of sim players moved on from GT7 a long time ago when they experienced the lack of detailed physics.

The only way GT7 stays relevant is on a console where the players are mostly stuck to a controller and couldn't tell a clean pass from a dirty one. Bigshot PC sims like ac acc and iracing hell even Live for speed... So many PC sims just completely embarass GT7 since day 1

Oh boy, we're twelve year olds? Says the guy whining on a forum about video games. You know, I think the median age for GT7 is the oldest it's ever been, so take that for what it's worth. You'll find the kids playing FH5, and that game has the worst physics of any "driving" game in existence.

I don't think anyone is saying that GT7 has physics that rival iRacing or ACC, but it's still a great driving game with a decent handling model that can inform good race craft. It can serve as a jumping off point for those who want to get into more serious racing titles, or be the only car game someone plays. It is also well documented that GT7s tire physics make traction blending a lot sharper, making oversteer snappy, quick, and hard to catch which informs fast reactions and correction which leads to players jumping from GT7 to other titles being pretty good at dealing with more realistic slip-angle management. I.E. GT7 teaches better car control, even if it is based on less realistic traits.

There are many things you don't seem to understand about GT7 and sims in general. GT7 is a bridge game, accessible to basically anyone with a PlayStation, and it can be a good tool for getting better at driving/sim racing. It also facilitates players like me that have real life experience driving cars on tracks and use a nice wheel in VR... that's a broad scope. I'm not even going to get into how many copies of GT have sold in comparison to other "sim" titles, as that is a blowout in favor of GT by miiiiles. And you talk about "relevance"... haha.

GT7 is also a car enthusiast platform, with many things to do that don't involve driving cars. Car nuts like me love that stuff, even if there is still a lot of things we desire in this area as well.

These sim titles you say are so much more "relevant" aren't. They are very niche. If you aren't into sim racing, you don't even know they exist. Yes, ACC and iR have much more detail in track surface, temps, setups and steering feedback, but they are also severely limiting titles with either a lack of car content (ACC is only GT cars, AC is old, both need wheels) or have steep barriers to entry (iR payout model is expensive and gatekeepy, also need a wheel and decent rig to play). Let's not forget that there are many well documented issues with those games too, and one only needs to wade into their forums for a moment to see people like you complaining about nuanced details like it's the end of the world, and that don't really matter at all.

I guess you're free to keep ranting about how GT7 stacks up as a "sim" title, but you're yelling into the ether. "Real" sim racers (lol) will stick to serious titles, and most casuals will stick to games like GT7, BUT there will always be a LARGE cross over between the two, because those of us with open minds don't feel the need to bash either based on what they can/can't do. I love the detailed handling that ACC provides, and ALSO love the whole world of automotive enthusiasm that GT7 represents and have a lot of fun with the physics within it.

Remember, comparison is the thief of joy, so go ahead and hang out with the "adults" in the forums related to those "real" sim games and leave us "kids" alone. Haha.

 

[Iso Octane]

Moving on to another topic, I'm surprised no one noticed the physics has been slightly changed with the last update.

Summarising the changes:

• Weight transfer seems to have been toned down again.
• Tyre grip loss is more progressive e.g. blending between trail braking to cornering is less severe than before, and also on comfort/sport tyres when you oversteer it's easier to hold a nice 4 wheel drift.

• 
  Until I saw your post, I thought it was just me improving my drifting skills and adapting to the game better. Genuinely, that's what I've been thinking! Maybe it was improvements in the game after all.
  
  One of my favorite things to do is drive around stock road cars with CS tires on to accentuate the way they lose grip and enjoy their different characters. Sliding them around is always on the menu. I didn't notice any physics changes as I've always been able to previously, but I can definitely hold, modulate, and power out of slides much better these days. So maybe it was physics changes... Regardless I'm finding it really enjoyable to drive around in GT7 as od late.

 

[PlanetJanet]

Spoiler alert: I'm currently on a train, bored and what I would call 'moderately pissed'.

But it fascinates me that people have such strong opinions about the physics model of GT7 vs other sims. I suspect I am quite representative of the GT player base: a man, in the 30+ age bracket, and from a fairly well developed economy. I have a car, and have driven many others, but rarely in anger and never truly in the pursuit of speed around a track (not sure a track day counts when I was 21 and crapping my pants ).

GT7 feels natural and pretty good to me. I can't really argue for its accuracy, or argue its merits vs other sims, since I neither race real cars nor play other sims. But if you listen to the opinions of those who do, and admittedly I am talking about streamers for the most part, it seems that the general consensus on GT7 is that the physics are pretty good. Not perfect, and clearly elements of real driving have been simplified in order to cater for as wide an audience as possible, but the actual experience of driving a car seems to have been simulated quite effectively.

I therefore find it incredibly interesting that certain sections of the sim racing community continue to pour such scorn on GT7. Clearly there are differences between all games but is GT7 really so different from iR and ACC in terms of the skills required to be good?

 

[sonnyboychris]

I therefore find it incredibly interesting that certain sections of the sim racing community continue to pour such scorn on GT7. Clearly there are differences between all games but is GT7 really so different from iR and ACC in terms of the skills required to be good?

I don't necessarily want or feel that GT needs to be IR or AC/ACC. I feel that the GT series is positioned properly in the console space, it's easy to get into and offers a relatively high ceiling in terms of simulation.

However, my agitation with GT7 comes from my perceived lack of improvement in certain areas over the last 6 years. For me, a big area where I've negatively compared it to ACC (PS5) is in terms of how communicative the FFB is for wheeled users. ACC really communicates what the car is doing through my DD Pro and offers a more immersive experience as such. I feel like there's less guess work in certain situations because the steering isn't as numb.

I think a lot of the scorn (great word btw) you see comes from a place of frustration. I was joking in another thread about how people are always poo-pooing grievances and replying with "just wait for GT<insert iteration here>". And when that iteration arrives, those legacy problems somehow aren't remedied lol. Hell, for us wheeled users, FFB has gotten worse in GT7 lol.

But some people just jerks and want to cry and complain but I try to explain why I'm down on an aspect of the game. And some people are annoy fans who would be happy if PD made you taken out auto loans for vehicle purchases lol.

 

[PlanetJanet]

I don't necessarily want or feel that GT needs to be IR or AC/ACC. I feel that the GT series is positioned properly in the console space, it's easy to get into and offers a relatively high ceiling in terms of simulation.

However, my agitation with GT7 comes from my perceived lack of improvement in certain areas over the last 6 years. For me, a big area where I've negatively compared it to ACC (PS5) is in terms of how communicative the FFB is for wheeled users. ACC really communicates what the car is doing through my DD Pro and offers a more immersive experience as such. I feel like there's less guess work in certain situations because the steering isn't as numb.

I think a lot of the scorn (great word btw) you see comes from a place of frustration. I was joking in another thread about how people are always poo-pooing grievances and replying with "just wait for GT<insert iteration here>". And when that iteration arrives, those legacy problems somehow aren't remedied lol. Hell, for us wheeled users, FFB has gotten worse in GT7 lol.

But some people just jerks and want to cry and complain but I try to explain why I'm down on an aspect of the game. And some people are annoy fans who would be happy if PD made you taken out auto loans for vehicle purchases lol.

Well I think this is interesting, and entirely fair. FFB is obviously very important because that is a huge part of how any wheel user experiences the game. I don't have enough experience of other games so am happy to take your word for it; but I think FFB is separate to the physics model itself, right? You could have the most realistic physics of all time, but with terrible FFB it would be difficult to appreciate it. If anything this is more frustrating since physics are fundamental and FFB is just a question of implementing said physics effectively. Although I may be simplifying this to an extreme degree, I don't really have a clue lol

 

[Iso Octane]

...clearly elements of real driving have been simplified in order to cater for as wide an audience as possible...

Statements like this is the problem. It straight away creates a bias that GT as a series is lesser than a "real sim".

There's no reason a SIM can't be as realistic as possible AND at the same time cater to a wide audience.

There's no evidence (is there?) that GT has been intentionally handicapped to make it cater to a wide audience. ACC, nor Iracing, no LFS is any harder to drive than GT7 despite being more "hardcore".

People are swayed by marketing, their egos, tribalism, and are gatekeeping.

We should evaluate what's in front of us, and not make biased assumptions:

• does GT accurately represent a real car?
• does GT accurately represent the behavior of a real car under the full envelope of driver inputs?
• to what fidelity is GT accurately representing real life? To what degree does it affect the experience?

Everything else is besides the point.

...I'll add that IMO everything before GT6 really was utter crap driving-wise and I was not a fan of GT7 until the mid lifecycle update when they fixed the oversteer behavior. I'm a realism nerd as much as the next guy, and my opinion is not that of a GT "fanboy".

 

[PlanetJanet]

Statements like this is the problem. It straight away creates a bias that GT as a series is lesser than a "real sim".

There's no reason a SIM can't be as realistic as possible AND at the same time cater to a wide audience.

There's no evidence (is there?) that GT has been intentionally handicapped to make it cater to a wide audience.

People are swayed by marketing, their egos, tribalism, and are gatekeeping.

We should evaluate what's in front of us, and not make biased assumptions:

• does GT accurately represent a real car?
• does GT accurately represent the behavior of a real car under the full envelope of driver inputs?
• to what fidelity is GT accurately representing real life? To what degree does it affect the experience?

Everything else is besides the point.

I fully agree. What I meant by that statement was things like auto drive when in the pits.

 

[LSFDRX]

I therefore find it incredibly interesting that certain sections of the sim racing community continue to pour such scorn on GT7. Clearly there are differences between all games but is GT7 really so different from iR and ACC in terms of the skills required to be good?

Unfortunately in the case of wheelhp up there (based on his language and labeling us as "12 year olds") it's coming from a place of weak, misplaced superiority. Not from any place of subjective nuance or objective fact.

Yes, other sims provide more feedback, fidelity, metrics... whatever, but that doesn't have to mean that GT7 is some terrible thing that is miles off of replicating the driving experience. Could is use more detailed feedback? YES! Does that mean that what we have "sucks"? NO! GT provides things for us that love cars that no other titles do, and when it's combined with a perfectly capable driving physics model you have the kind of stuff most of us could only dream about a few years ago.

But that doesn't matter to someone who's sole goal is parading their preferences around like scripture while also seeing fit to deride a whole community based on those preferences.

I don't play iRacing because I'm not going to build a computer to run it then pay the many tiers of buy-ins to stay current ($13 a mo., each car 10-14 bucks, each track 10-14 bucks, moving up classes can cost nearly $200 depending on what you still have to buy to participate), and haven't played ACC in a long time (limited to GT class race cars, TCS the norm, only in 2D). They are both amazing platforms to be involved with, but that has literally nothing to do with GT7... and some people can't stand that I guess.

I engage with people like him because I'm a bit of an A-hole that likes it when others invite conflict, but we should also rest comfortably in the fact that his opinion doesn't really matter at all.

 

[Iso Octane]

I fully agree. What I meant by that statement was things like auto drive when in the pits.

And people shouldn't use that as a gauge of realism when it comes to physics. Auto drive isn't physics, it's a game mechanic. People need to learn to distinguish what realism means in context of physics.

 

[PlanetJanet]

And people shouldn't use that as a gauge of realism when it comes to physics. Auto drive isn't physics, it's a game mechanic. People need to learn to distinguish what realism means in context of physics.

Definitely, haed agree.

 

[Td04]

There's no evidence (is there?) that GT has been intentionally handicapped to make it cater to a wide audience. ACC, nor Iracing, no LFS is any harder to drive than GT7 despite being more "hardcore".

People are swayed by marketing, their egos, tribalism, and are gatekeeping.

This sums everything. I followed this topic since gt7 release,when the physics was kinda broken but showed a lot of good things under the hood.
The physics improved so much since that day,but the same people was whining 2 years ago are the same who are whining now.
Elitism and sunk cost fallacy bias are what i read here from some people. They invested so much saying how good are others Sims,how gt is for masses that now they can't go back.
I tested Ac and gt7 for so many sessions,using the same cars and tracks the games allow me to,and i never understand how can people keep saying some things.. speak about its console iteration,cars has literally no to just a lil weight shift and tyre model is worse than nowadays gt7 and by far. I could make video where i show what i am talking about..
I am not a gt fanboy. I think that gt7 is the first with good physics, while gt sport was a joke and GT6 was not bad. Gt3,4,5 are all quite bad physics wise.
The only gt where i can be called fanboy is GT2, the only chapter that i unconditionally love even today.

 

[wheelhp]

Wet lines are simulated yes, but only if the race starts dry and then progressively gets wetter. Apart from the normal line being slipperier due to the rubber buildup, your tyre also picks up marbles off line and this sorta gives it more "grooves" to clear the water better.

However, if the track is wet from the start (i.e. it has been raining for a while), it's faster to stick to the usual line. At this point the rubber on the normal racing line and the marbles off line has been washed off completely, so just take the normal racing line as usual to open up the corners. No extra grip to be had driving funky lines. As proven in this wet Spa TT a few months back, all of the top laps drive normal lines.


Also, I reckon the gap between inters and wets in GT is too small under full wet conditions (either that, or the track never gets to fully flooded conditions where inters are useless). Even at the 2nd bar of wetness there's only like 1-2 secs difference between inters and wets. But as soon as the track starts to dry, the wets just loses multiple seconds to the inters and degrades quickly. Combined with the accelerated weather, the inters is just a more versatile tyre overall because you'll be okay driving it anywhere from 1/3-2/3 wetness. Whereas the wets are only slightly better at 80% plus wetness (which rarely happens).

------------------

Moving on to another topic, I'm surprised no one noticed the physics has been slightly changed with the last update. Now if you mostly drive race cars with wings and slicks, it can be hard to detect. But I drive road cars on a daily basis on the Nordschleife on my route to tune every car in the game, so I noticed a few things has changed. Initially I thought it's just placebo effect but I have also been re-doing the Master Licenses recently and it's especially noticeable on the old cars with soft suspension and on dirt/snow. Last week's Daily A (MX5 at Willow Horse Thief) also shows quite a difference in car behaviour (I was rank 180 ish at the end so I spent quite some time here and can compare before/after update).

Summarising the changes:

• Weight transfer seems to have been toned down again.
• Tyre grip loss is more progressive e.g. blending between trail braking to cornering is less severe than before, and also on comfort/sport tyres when you oversteer it's easier to hold a nice 4 wheel drift.
• The Master License with Countach at last sector of Grand Valley is prime example of this (or any old car on undulating track). Pre update the heavy rear is very hard to tame and when you do breakaway it's very snappy. Now it's more progressive and you can maintain slides better. Still tricky to drive, but not manic and OTT like before.
• The MX5 at Willow is also obvious. The first turn with a dip at the apex can unsettle the car dramatically pre update, now it's less severe. Also coming out of all those 2nd gear hairpins it's very easy to induce oversteer before, now you can get away with a lot of throttle and if a slide does occur it's much smaller.
• A lot less understeer on snow/dirt. I suspected something changed when I did the Urus weekly challenge, but put it down to the SUV being exceptionally good offroad. Then I redid the snow license (Celica at last sector Lake Louise) and it's so easy to rotate the car now. No more terminal understeer, you can use scandi flicks to set up the car for corners as in real life. The car grips under acceleration and actually moves forward instead of just pinging off the rev limiter.

Now the bad part: I feel like the FFB has been toned down again. For reference I'm using T-GT, FFB Torque 3, FFB Sens 1. Road feel seems to be less detailed and there's a lot of centering spring feel. Tried increasing FFB Sens but it doesn't do much (seriously, I have never detected any difference with this setting between 1-10). It's not as numb as GT Sport, but pre update it was the best GT's FFB has gotten. Now it's kinda meh again. The cynic in me feels this is due to the new Fanatec GT DD Extreme's FullForce implementation and PD trying to get people to upgrade by nerfing FFB with other wheels. Or (more likely) the new more sedate suspension physics have muted the road feel. Either way, as people have said FFB is still miles behind titles such as AC/ACC. The new physics is a step in the right direction, but PD really need to get a leg up on FFB (and give us more adjustment sliders) in GT8.

Just my 2 cents. Maybe it's all just in my head but as a "road car specialist" some of the behaviour pre and post update are quite stark. I did drive a few Gr.3/4 and the GT-One TT (2 secs off top time, for reference), and the changes are much harder to detect with these stiffly sprung high grip cars. It's there, but only if you already know what to look for. If I only drive race cars (like a lot of people here) I probably would have missed the changes.

Going back to this. that urus update. I did notice something changed in road cars physics. Tyres felt more progressive and forgiving. The game finally felt good on a controller . A step in the right direction. Something that was needed for a long time was changed and simply not mentioned in the changelog to avoid players noticing the subtle change. Bizzare ommision.

I didnt want to be the first to report it on here. So good on you. Yes You were not the only one who noticed !

 

[Wannablackbee]

I just want to say I love where this thread is going. I like to analyse the cars behaviour during long sessions and I like to hear what others have to say about physics and what they have found with their own analysis. I also noticed cars won't turn when on brakes which was a thing in the past but was more subtle. Maybe could be linked with that toned down weight transfer people on here were talking about. The weight transfer caused by braking help to rotate the car. So I guess less drastic weight transfer could cause a feeling of more severe understeer when applying brakes.

 

[Td04]

I just want to say I love where this thread is going. I like to analyse the cars behaviour during long sessions and I like to hear what others have to say about physics and what they have found with their own analysis. I also noticed cars won't turn when on brakes which was a thing in the past but was more subtle. Maybe could be linked with that toned down weight transfer people on here were talking about. The weight transfer caused by braking help to rotate the car. So I guess less drastic weight transfer could cause a feeling of more severe understeer when applying brakes.

Didn't test on race Cars yet but Road Cars still turn while breaking,if you don't exceed with brake strenght.

 

[P-Courty]

I also noticed cars won't turn when on brakes which was a thing in the past but was more subtle. Maybe could be linked with that toned down weight transfer people on here were talking about. The weight transfer caused by braking help to rotate the car. So I guess less drastic weight transfer could cause a feeling of more severe understeer when applying brakes.

Didn't test on race Cars yet but Road Cars still turn while breaking,if you don't exceed with brake strenght.

If round 1 of the Gazoo Cup is anything to go by then, like @Td04 said, road cars certainly do still rotate on the brakes and the weight transfer is really usable.

The GR86 struggles to turn if you slam the brake straight down to maximum braking force (just like in a real car), but as soon as you lift off to just above half braking force the car turns in really well... If you lift of fully from there then you get a smooth rotation and a loose back end to get the car directed to where you want to go.

What I have noticed since the last two updates though, is that after around 2-3 laps (once the tires are warm, can see the temps on my phone) I seem to get more understeer, which is wierd. I first experienced this in the GT-One TT especially going into Coca-Cola and then again in the practice laps for the Gazoo Round 1, if I exited and went back in then lap one gave more grip.

 

[LeGeNd-1]

What I have noticed since the last two updates though, is that after around 2-3 laps (once the tires are warm, can see the temps on my phone) I seem to get more understeer, which is wierd. I first experienced this in the GT-One TT especially going into Coca-Cola and then again in the practice laps for the Gazoo Round 1, if I exited and went back in then lap one gave more grip.

The effect of tyre temps overheating on grip seems to be more and more pronounced with every update. This means your driving style will have a bigger effect on heat/wear and grip more than anything else.

Back in GT Sport for example a heavier car will always have more tyre wear than a lighter car. Also cars with more extreme weight balance (e.g. front or rear heavy) will wear that end more than a 50:50 balanced weight car. As a result of this some Gr.3 cars are just not viable in high tyre wear races because the car's weight/layout just puts it at a disadvantage from the start.

Now in GT7, the driving style has a bigger impact. If you're smooth and you don't slide around overheating the tyres, you CAN have less wear on a heavy car compared to someone driving a light car but drives roughly. Downforce also increases tyre wear a lot (because you're cornering faster and putting more energy into the tyres). The BRZ GT300 for example is a handling car that has lots of grip but it wears the tyre a lot more than the Castrol Supra that has less downforce. It feels like the Castrol is sliding around more but because it's cornering speeds are lower you're not overheating the tyres and it lasts longer.

It's good news if you're a smooth driver. But if you're a rough driver then you will overheat the tyres in 2-3 laps, start sliding around and heating it more, thus creating even more wear and it's a downward spiral.

 

[CarreraGT]

The answer to all of the questions above is to own both. I regularly flick between GT7, ACC, F1 23 and EA WRC depending on what I feel on the day. Does ACC feel the most realistic? Probably, but I can't recall every playing any of the others and thinking this feels nothing like driving a GT3 or a rally car or whatever.

There is no objective way to say one game is significantly more realistic than another. They are all "interpretations" of reality and each develop does it in a slightly different way.

The more the merrier I say!

 

[P-Courty]

@LeGeNd-1 these were my tires at the end of the Gazoo Cup Round 1 which is pretty good I think.

My driving style changes per car as some need that loose back end to rotate and others need trail braking.

Although all of what you said makes sense for races with tire wear, it doesn't make sense for the Toyota GT-One TT at Fuji as there isn't any tire wear but every time I entered lap 2 I could instantly feel the difference at Coca-Cola and lap 3 was always a waste. My first fastest gold time and my improved gold time were both on first laps and then exited at Coca-Cola on the second due to reduced front end grip.

I'm not sure why it happened but it was certainly noticeable.

 

[LeGeNd-1]

@LeGeNd-1 these were my tires at the end of the Gazoo Cup Round 1 which is pretty good I think.

View attachment 1351493

My driving style changes per car as some need that loose back end to rotate and others need trail braking.

Although all of what you said makes sense for races with tire wear, it doesn't make sense for the Toyota GT-One TT at Fuji as there isn't any tire wear but every time I entered lap 2 I could instantly feel the difference at Coca-Cola and lap 3 was always a waste. My first fastest gold time and my improved gold time were both on first laps and then exited at Coca-Cola on the second due to reduced front end grip.

I'm not sure why it happened but it was certainly noticeable.

I won the race and my tyres were at 30% ish. But tyre saving has always been my specialty ever since the early GT Sport days where every race has double digit tyre wear. I was doing 2:25s in the race and very little drop off in laptime even towards the end (except when I was battling the guy in 1st).

Even in time trial with no wear there is still tyre temps. If you have the tyre temp app you can see this. I remember the TT with Viper at Blue Moon, the tyres were mushy by the 2nd lap because it was sliding all over the place.