Gran Turismo 7 Physics

[NevilleNobody]

This video might help:


What car and what time are you trying to get at Spa?

Thanks. As for the car, I am doing the track test.

So here are three videos, one on controller and two with wheel. I used chase so you can see the lines better.

I went with controller first, this was the only flying lap after messing up 4. A few more laps and get gold easily. Then the wheel was about half an hour's work as one video shows how often I lost it.

Obsservations:
- There just SO MUCH understeer, it is absolutely joyless. Relentless understeer. All my lines have changed from early 2023. Just brutal understeer on every turn, car just refuses to turn.

- tc1 on controller is tolerable but was faster with tc2. Needed tc2 on wheel

- The judder you see on controller is because I use dpad

- I am very distracted by the force feedback, I dropped it all down to 1 because it's so strong

As you can see I'm a mess on the wheel, just a mess. After this I did lap after lap on the wheel and as I got more comfortable with the throttle I began to struggle again with the steering as I did with the T150, I never really k ow when the grip is or isn't there like on the controller.

 

[Nebuc72]

Thanks. As for the car, I am doing the track test.

So here are three videos, one on controller and two with wheel. I used chase so you can see the lines better.

I went with controller first, this was the only flying lap after messing up 4. A few more laps and get gold easily. Then the wheel was about half an hour's work as one video shows how often I lost it.

Obsservations:
- There just SO MUCH understeer, it is absolutely joyless. Relentless understeer. All my lines have changed from early 2023. Just brutal understeer on every turn, car just refuses to turn.

- tc1 on controller is tolerable but was faster with tc2. Needed tc2 on wheel

- The judder you see on controller is because I use dpad

- I am very distracted by the force feedback, I dropped it all down to 1 because it's so strong

As you can see I'm a mess on the wheel, just a mess. After this I did lap after lap on the wheel and as I got more comfortable with the throttle I began to struggle again with the steering as I did with the T150, I never really k ow when the grip is or isn't there like on the controller.

From a quick look you're understeering like mad because you're carrying way too much speed into the corners, and are to be brutally honest, just not driving very well. This doesn't seem like a "new physics" problem at all more than it seems like you've just forgotten how to drive fast after both a year off and on a new piece of kit. Which is normal, but it's better to understand that than bemoan it being the games fault.

Pretty much every corner I see you just brake way too late, and you fly past the apex and compromise the whole corner. Almost every single time.

Remember slow is smooth, smooth is fast. Brake a little earlier than you do, turn in a little earlier than you do, straighten the car for exit a little earlier than you do, and you'll find you can accelerate out without being in a random part of the track with the car pointing in the wrong direction.

It's also worth letting off the brake a bit more gradually than you are, most of the corners you're doing here you are just hamming it 100% then letting off completely, you're not in control of where the car is going at all doing this and you end up reacting to where the car is putting itself rather than where you are putting it.

I know you've moaned about how GT7 was never meant to be as hardcore driving wise as others etc. but ultimately this was never true - the game markets itself as a simulator and really isn't that different from how it used to be.

 

[NevilleNobody]

Yeah to be clear I feel the discussion had moved from a physics thing to why I suck so bad with a wheel. Though to be fair the understeer is real compared to two updates ago, even with a controller my brake points are different and I am coasting what feels like forever.

On the brake thing I agree 100pc, I'm learning to use the load cell which is surprisingly stiff, like a stone, so I need to develop muscle memory of pressure release. That's also unsettling the car on entry and causing more understeer because it's all locked up.

To your point on braking, when I brake earlier I am bleeding so, so, so much time, maybe just a matter if practice there to find the right point. I've lost all my markers I had memorized. Like entering the right hander after eau rouge, I used to brake just after the kerb started and was a demon through malmedy, but now I am pulling up well before the kerb.

 

[Kriptical]

Make sure to adjust the brf on your wheel. Finding the right value for your set up will help building the correct muscle memory.

 

[NevilleNobody]

Thr load cells take a bit to get used to. They're quite difficult to get to 100pc so I think I have 100pc at 55pc pressure (so to speak) and thisblack of range makes careful lift off difficult. I'll play around a bit, see if I can make it easier to come off gradually.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

I saw in another thread you’ve recently got a Fanatec setup, is it the CSL pedals that you’re using? I had those pedals for a few months and, I know it comes down to personal preference in the end, but I think I had mine set to around 75%, any lower and I found the pressure hard to modulate. They’re a very stiff pedal, that’s for sure, but the elastomer does soften up after a bit of use.

 

[NevilleNobody]

Yes the csl load cell. OK I'm at 55 and thr guy I bought them off put that yellow spongy elastometer in to get more travel but man she's a tough gal! I'll play with the settings tomorrow as you suggested.

 

[NevilleNobody]

Pretty much every corner I see you just brake way too late, and you fly past the apex and compromise the whole corner. Almost every single time.

So I just revisited the the third video which is my fast lap on the wheel and I feel like I hit my marks and make my apexes on every corner from T1 to Pouhon except Bruxells where I fail to tuck the nose in. So it's about half the lap and whilst neat and tidy and I monumentally slow (especially through Les Combes/Malmedy where I am CRAWLING), that's the rub I guess, when I try and add some pace I fall apart in a hurry. Freezing day here, gonna kick the kids off the PS5 and practice

 

[jrbabbitt]

Suggestion: this worked for me as someone told me this way to nail the APEX properly is to use the APEX MARKERS in the drivers aids and play "connect the dots" with them, brake before entering turn, turn in on touching the first marker, coast or gentle throttle to maintain speed and touch middle APEX marker, then gently accelerate out as you would while touching the exit marker. i will post an example video tonight when i get home from work.

 

[KAlex122]

Half of topic but maybe best to ask here:
I just realised that Sport Soft and Intermediate tires share the exact same PP (at least at a lot of cars). What does that mean performance wise? I would interpret that on dry tarmac performance is the same and in the wet the inters outrun the Sport Softs...? If so what does that mean suspension wise? If not, please explain.

 

[NevilleNobody]

OK so I had a bit of time today, did about half an hr each on the wheel and the controller. It's pretty clear the physics have changed a lot and there is more understeer on the controller than there was 18 months ago, Eau Rouge is no longer flat, neither is Blanchimont.

In saying that I still find I can brake considerably later with the controller and tuck the nose in nicely to clip the apex vs the wheel where I need to start my braking several metres earlier.

I was about 6 to 7 tenths faster on the controller, i can live with that but I am also way less consistent on the wheel which hurts. All I can do is practice and see how it goes, may need to get the muscle memory going.

 

[NevilleNobody]

Shivers and giggles i decided to try ACC. Interesting comparison, the FFS is definitely better, I can feel weight transfer and the FFB is very adjustable. The sound in cockpit view is epic. I am in beginner mode so with that caveat the rear end of the car feel much more secure than on GT7, definitely trust the back end more but not sure if this all goes to hell in harder modes.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

You can really carry the brake right into the corners in ACC, so you might find it suits your driving style.

Also, it’s a bit of a myth that the “hardcore” sims are any more difficult than GT7 (unless you’re jumping straight into a car with a high learning curve, like iRacing’s Australian Supercars). An experienced GT player should have little issue getting up to speed.

 

[B80]

Shivers and giggles i decided to try ACC. Interesting comparison, the FFS is definitely better, I can feel weight transfer and the FFB is very adjustable. The sound in cockpit view is epic. I am in beginner mode so with that caveat the rear end of the car feel much more secure than on GT7, definitely trust the back end more but not sure if this all goes to hell in harder modes.

You can really carry the brake right into the corners in ACC, so you might find it suits your driving style.

Also, it’s a bit of a myth that the “hardcore” sims are any more difficult than GT7 (unless you’re jumping straight into a car with a high learning curve, like iRacing’s Australian Supercars). An experienced GT player should have little issue getting up to speed.

Yes, i tried ACC, before vr2 was released.

I had grown bored of gt7, abd had been playing ACC for 2 or 3 months instead.

The perception I had was acc is hard-core, therefore difficult. People saying stuff like it's tough completing 1 clean lap . Perhaps If trying to be fast competitive online. I'm only a B level driver online with gt7, so hardly some sim racing god. Although I haven't bothered with any online races for couple of years now.

But as I only play v cpu... they have that great granular feature, where yku can toggle cpu driver 'quickness' and aggressiveness. So start low, gradually increase to reflect your ability.

Tbh, if it wasnt for vr2, which has spoiled me, and I can't, or rstger don't want to, play flat screen anymore, I may have barely touched gt7 past 18 months.

Acc is much more visceral. Sounds, ffb, sense of actually being in a race. And it really isn't that tough at all to be competitive/stay of track v cpu. It's much, much more engaging and gets blood pumping, in bumper to bumper racing. Why PD can't make gt series games closer to this experience, is a crying shame tbh. Instead we have to tolerate mediocre at best racing experience still, after all these years.

It may not look as pretty, on console, as gt7. But I'd take lesser visuals, in favour of feeling 'proper' racing and sound, ffb every day.

And yes, cars actually 'easier' to stay on track with. They don't totally lose grip and difficult to correct/countersteer, as tends to be the way in gt7.

I think you need a wheel iirc for acc. Perhaps that's changed, but maybe that's where perception of it being 'hardcore'/difficult to do a clean lap came from. People using controllers, which are/were poorly optimized, before.

 

[jrbabbitt]

Suggestion: this worked for me as someone told me this way to nail the APEX properly is to use the APEX MARKERS in the drivers aids and play "connect the dots" with them, brake before entering turn, turn in on touching the first marker, coast or gentle throttle to maintain speed and touch middle APEX marker, then gently accelerate out as you would while touching the exit marker. i will post an example video tonight when i get home from work.

Here is the video, I'm not perfect but watching this i think you can get the idea of what it was saying in post above.

 

[sonnyboychris]

Shivers and giggles i decided to try ACC. Interesting comparison, the FFS is definitely better, I can feel weight transfer and the FFB is very adjustable. The sound in cockpit view is epic. I am in beginner mode so with that caveat the rear end of the car feel much more secure than on GT7, definitely trust the back end more but not sure if this all goes to hell in harder modes.

You're not exaggerating. The FFB in ACC is beyond what GT7 has ever been. You can actually feel what the car is doing and the track itself becomes a main character of the game, because the road surface truly comes through via the FFB.

When it comes to FFB, GT7 can't hold a candle to ACC.

 

[Nebuc72]

GT7 has some of the worst FFB in the market in my opinion. Almost no real feedback, barely any adjustability and what feedback they do give you is practically just noise you have to figure out yourself.

 

[JDMKING13]

As a T-GTII user GT7 FF feels good to me and it’s very commutative. I can feel everything and with a game with so many different type of cars it always impresses me how different the cars feels when driving. In VR the FF is even better imo.

 

[ZevZoq]

GT7 has some of the worst FFB in the market in my opinion. Almost no real feedback, barely any adjustability and what feedback they do give you is practically just noise you have to figure out yourself.

I don't find that to be the case at all. I just have a crummy G29 and I get all sorts of feedback and really none of it feels like noise. I get road details and weight transfer and the feel of the back end getting loose. All of it. One of my favorite little things to do when I'm running laps at Nord is to weave slowly back and forth across the track on the long straight to feel the incredibly subtle little pull on the wheel as the front tires cross over the long cracks that run along the surface of the track. I find it really pretty remarkable actually.

 

[Nebuc72]

I don't find that to be the case at all. I just have a crummy G29 and I get all sorts of feedback and really none of it feels like noise. I get road details and weight transfer and the feel of the back end getting loose. All of it. One of my favorite little things to do when I'm running laps at Nord is to weave slowly back and forth across the track on the long straight to feel the incredibly subtle little pull on the wheel as the front tires cross over the long cracks that run along the surface of the track. I find it really pretty remarkable actually.

There's good feedback from the track surface, but, speaking from a standpoint of comparing it to any other sim on the market - not from what the car is doing.

 

[ZevZoq]

There's good feedback from the track surface, but, speaking from a standpoint of comparing it to any other sim on the market - not from what the car is doing.

again, I disagree.

 

[Scaff]

again, I disagree.

What other titles are you comparing it to? As I have to agree with the other members posting here, in comparison to a number of other titles, GT7 is quite a way behind in terms of FFB and physics.

 

[ZevZoq]

What other titles are you comparing it to? As I have to agree with the other members posting here, in comparison to a number of other titles, GT7 is quite a way behind in terms of FFB and physics.

The only other titles I could compare to are the rally games on the PS5 (Dirt and WRC). I haven't tried any of the others. I'm not saying the FF in GT7 is the best there is. I'm just disagreeing with the idea that the FF in GT7 doesn't provide any good useful info about what the car is doing.

 

[Scaff]

The only other titles I could compare to are the rally games on the PS5 (Dirt and WRC).

OK, it's not really easy to do a like-for-like with those.

I haven't tried any of the others. I'm not saying the FF in GT7 is the best there is. I'm just disagreeing with the idea that the FF in GT7 doesn't provide any good useful info about what the car is doing.

It provides the basics, but honestly, in comparison to most of the genre, it's honestly quite a way behind, even to the point of getting one area wrong in contrast to reality (understeer should make a wheel go light, not start vibrating/shaking). Keep in mind that the other members were not saying it doesn't provide anything, but rather that it provides less (at times a lot less) than other titles.

 

[ZevZoq]

OK, it's not really easy to do a like-for-like with those.

It provides the basics, but honestly, in comparison to most of the genre, it's honestly quite a way behind, even to the point of getting one area wrong in contrast to reality (understeer should make a wheel go light, not start vibrating/shaking). Keep in mind that the other members were not saying it doesn't provide anything, but rather that it provides less (at times a lot less) than other titles.

For me, understeer DOES make the wheel go light. And I don't really get any vibrating or shaking from understeer. That's the thing - some of what people describe they are getting from the FF in the game is really different from what I'm experiencing. Although, I would suggest that understeer could cause some vibration and shaking if the tires are scrubbing rather than just outright slipping.

The FF was described as "noise that you have to figure out for yourself." That's the sort of description I'm disagreeing with.

 

[imChris]

It provides the basics, but honestly, in comparison to most of the genre, it's honestly quite a way behind, even to the point of getting one area wrong in contrast to reality (understeer should make a wheel go light, not start vibrating/shaking).

I borrowed a G29 for a few weeks and was actually appalled when the wheel started shaking to simulate the feel of understeer. I thought something was broken with the wheel at first.

 

[ZevZoq]

I borrowed a G29 for a few weeks and was actually appalled when the wheel started shaking to simulate the feel of understeer. I thought something was broken with the wheel at first.

again, not really my experience. Any chance the torque was maxed out or something?

As far as comparing to other sims - when you (well, "we" actually as this isn't directed at anyone in particular) say "on the market" are we talking other sims on the PS5 or is that including Iracing and ACC on PC and so forth? Because afaic, comparisons to the top PC sims don't really matter much. I was an Iracing subscriber many years back - in fact I was an alpha/beta tester when Iracing was being developed. But I have a PS5 now and haven't been a "PC guy" for a while. All I'm concerned about is what I can run on the PS5. So the fact that ACC or Iracing on the PC might (and probably do) have better FF is not real important to me. But just in a general sense, GT7 certainly has FF as good as what I remember from Iracing back then lol. Or from Grand Prix Legends even further back when I had my treasured MOMO wheel.

 

[imChris]

again, not really my experience. Any chance the torque was maxed out or something?

I tried different torque settings, it would still vibrate/shake on very low settings

 

[Kriptical]

Just read a post on the fanatec boards saying they have had a new sdk available for games to implement for about a year now and the only ones to actually have implemented are forza.

..everytime pd releases another one of these ‘free,’ updates.. i think of that…

 

[Scaff]

For me, understeer DOES make the wheel go light. And I don't really get any vibrating or shaking from understeer. That's the thing - some of what people describe they are getting from the FF in the game is really different from what I'm experiencing.

Which is odd, as it should be, reasonably, consistent.

Although, I would suggest that understeer could cause some vibration and shaking if the tires are scrubbing rather than just outright slipping.

Agreed, but after going light, not at the same time, self-aligning torque has to reduce before a tyre is going to skip/scrub.

The FF was described as "noise that you have to figure out for yourself." That's the sort of description I'm disagreeing with.

It's been a while since I used a G29, but from my past experience with a T300 (a similar class of wheel), I would have to agree that it's harder to sort out the noise in GT7 than in many other titles.