Gran Turismo Sophy: Sony AI x Polyphony Digital
- Thread starter Magog
- 1,719 comments
- 194,674 views
- 1,330
- Canada
- the-1st-hawkeyez
They should work on equalizing PP. We always make sure we are similar PP and exact same tires. Sometimes it works but generally one of us has the fastest car. So we resort to running the exact same car/tune/setup(stock) and that yields the best results.
I get that sometimes somebody is just running faster but I remember GT Legends having classes and it seemed like whatever you chose, it was close racing. Some cars had the handling, some had the straight line speed. I suspect they did some extensive testing and made sure the cars were pretty much equal and competitive.
It might just be the tuning/setup in GT7 where people are getting the edge. I know they supposedly fixed the add weight glitch or whatever it was but we will still get somebody in a room, with limit on PP and one tire selection, the flag drops and they’re gone never to be seen again during the entire race! Haha. Not saying it’s cheating but people always seem to hav to find that edge over other players. I wish I could set up a room that disables all car settings to stock and forces everybody to run the same car, tune and setup (stock). I don’t think that BoP does that accurately.
- 143
- Arkansas
That's a good point. Man I feel old.😭It's understandable that someone might have a different perspective on Polyphony if they didn't play through the PS3 era. People who started playing with GTS probably have a fairly positive impression of them as developers. There were issues, but the quality and level of support was high if you were into the type of game that it was.
I think it's easy for those of us who have been around for a while to forget that GT6 was 9 years ago, GT5 was 12 years, and GT4 was 17 years. There are adults playing GT7 now that were too busy filling their diapers to play when GT4 came out. While it hasn't been that many releases in real terms, the slow pace at while Polyphony puts games out means that there's always going to be a decent amount of people who have heard of Gran Turismo but haven't been around for a game release.
Also, damn kids, skateboards, rock music, yadda yadda.
So, I started with GT2 and stuff just worked. I never thought the off road races worked and felt too great in GT, but that dont matter to me anyway. Funny tho, they still feel absolutely the same in GT7 as they did in GT2.
I fully agree. As an option for training, learning how to race in a pack, it would be awesome! Totally havent thought about it from this perspective. But again: Too much attention for a single player optional thing.
I fully agree. As an option for training, learning how to race in a pack, it would be awesome! Totally havent thought about it from this perspective. But again: Too much attention for a single player optional thing.
- 1,330
- Canada
- the-1st-hawkeyez
I just saw a sponsored ad the other day about if you buy this guitar amp today you get the footswitch for free!!
Most people were saying it should come free with the amp, one kid said to everyone complaining you’ve never gotten footswitches for free and Marshall has never ever included their footswitches. I felt old because I listed three or four amps I have including Marshall’s that all came with the footswitches included no extra cost.
Anyway not related to GT7 i guess but yeah I’ve noticed that with games too. Some stuff they just think it’s normal regular run of the mill stuff. It’s taken me a bit to get used of how games are updated so often. At least my internet is faster now so it’s less annoying but there were many times years ago I’d sit down to play a game with friends, all of us… ummm it’s updating or needs updating. ok let’s try this game, nope same thing. Wtf it just updated last night?!?! Haha
- 1
- Finland
PC2 had AI that was driving invisible tracks while ignoring actual physics of the game. The percentage setting was done poorly, in my opinion, because it mostly limits straight line speed of the AI. As a result, you can easily pass the AI even after driving previous corner slower than the AI.
It still has better AI than many other driving games but the AI that doesn't follow the physics in the game cannot ever feel truly correct.
- 2,099
- Zimbabwe
Yes. It's PD.
They will brutally overcorrect an "issue" one way or the other like they have done to the physics and the tuning and the penalties and the game's economy.
I have no confidence that PD would be able to replace the game's current AI with Sophy with any level of finesse (if that's what they choose to do).
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- 1,330
- Canada
- the-1st-hawkeyez
It could just be me but besides graphics and physics I really don’t think they’re touched the AI all that much. I used to say it feels like they’re on a predetermined track, I still feel that way only sometimes now they give way. but not always, I’ve had them turn hard right into me as they try to pit. lol They don’t let up either, unless you accelerate past or brake they just keep turning into you.
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- 3,035
- Kingston, Jamaica
- pj-gm
- PJwasHere876
Gran Turismo's AI and events are by design. Whether we like it or not, one must consider that the majority of less serious players probably don't feel as negatively about it as we do. Sophy can't replace GT's AI and have the events remain the same. They would have to be completely changed, too, which is basically rewriting an entire game's progression. It feels like a safe bet that it isn't happening.
- 2,099
- Zimbabwe
Pretty much.
Which begs the question: how will this current form of world beating Sophy benefit the playerbase or the game itself if it's only going to be contained to an isolated set of extreme difficulty Hamilton DLC-esque missions?
Sure, maybe it'll help train players to better abuse the physics but to what end? Offline players will still have to go back and race the normal AI in the rest of the game. Online players...would just continue race against actual people in the first place.
Is it just a way for PD to flex on their industry peers?
Or is the current roster of barebones singleplayer Cafe events just a hold over until PD is ready to release a GT League 2.0 designed around Sophy? Is that too much hopium?
- 3,035
- Kingston, Jamaica
- pj-gm
- PJwasHere876
Hot take, but maybe because it's fun?
It's still fun if they include it in a new series of events (albeit in a more 'beatable' form). There's still a gap between chase the rabbit we have now and racing online that Sophy can slot in to with its own events. As for how many, who knows, but like I said, it probably won't replace what GT mode is and has been for a while now, at least not in 7.
- 2,099
- Zimbabwe
I suppose it depends on how the Sophie missions are set up. Are they strictly a time trial? Or "pass Sophy with a 40 second head start in a single lap"? A 1v1 with a set car/track combo? An actual race against more than one Sophies?
How often would an average player go back to re-experience the fun of a License Test/Circuit Experience/Mission after completing them compared to a Daily Race or offline event?
My hang-up is how will Sophy, as a one-off novelty, address the issues that many have with the bad AI in GT7 and the events designed around it?
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- 126
- Sweden
- Bornhall
Well, that's the question, isn't it? I fully understand, and sympathize with, your qualms about whether PD actually can bring something to the table, but aside from the general negativity about PD (who are not, as far as I know, the instigator of the Sony AI venture) there is a myriad of things you could do with Sophy (...and, knowing PD, they will likely be half-assed and missing the target).
As you say, you could have a time trial where you compare yourself to various levels of Sophy.
Pass Sophy where the AI has a 40 second head start? This suggestion is ridiculous IMO, more suitable for the current AI. I would turn it around and give the player a 40 second head start against Sophy instead.
As to how Sopy will address the issue with the bad AI, I can personally see a variety of solutions that could be implemented. Let's say you have a lap race with 20 cars, where you start in 12th. Add 2 Sophy opponents with skill lower than your own a couple of places ahead, and 2 Sophy opponents with higher skill than your own a couple of places behind you. Fill the rest of the grid with the normal "AI" drivers, and off you go.
One possibility is to combine the traditional "AI" with a simple Sophy model. Both take input and translate it to output (throttle, brake, steering input). Weight the traditional "AI" against the Sophy model, say 50/50 for a decent opponent, or 20/80 for a harder opponent. For that matter, you could basically switch between the two depending on the situation an opponent is in; if the car is full tilt on a straight, no need to use the Sophy model until it's within reach of the next corner. Or if in close proximity to another car; use Sophy – if not, just be a dumb "AI" driver as it is now. It doesn't necessarily need to be black or white – Sophy or no Sophy.
Or, as has been mentioned before, have 10 of the opponents be a less trained Sophy that can make silly mistakes rather than the "on-the-rails" variant. Add 5 a little more skilled opponents and 4 really skilled opponents (with regard to the player's level of skill). I would go out on a limb and claim that even a less trained Sophy would be more fun to compete against in a single-player situation than most racing game "AI", just due to the fact that you can't predict where they opponent will go in regard to how you position yourself. As it is now, you basically "know" where all the cars in the "AI" train will go. Off the starting line, you know that you have to pass x number of cars, and how, if you're going to stand a chance at catching the rabbit car in P1.
I really don't get how so many write Sophy off as a "one-off novelty". It's like saying that the face recognition (possible privacy issues aside) feature of digital cameras and smartphones in its infancy was a novelty and no use in pursuing. Sure, the actual future implementation of Sophy in GT is a big unknown today, but as technology it is (as far as I'm concerned) very interesting research.
dabz343
(Banned)
- 950
- United States
- dabz343
Building on some intriguing ideas above, if at the heart of Sophy is it's autonomous learning ability coupled with our options to set specific parameters around the learning environment, then this could open the doors to Sophy being more than just a speedy AI.
A crude example. Could Sophy be tasked to review my 20 laps at Redbull and learn where I am fast, decent and slow? How, because it knows my inputs and all the telemetry. Then, Sophy will come race with me live, but with 3 versions of itself (that address various exploits against me) to try to learn even more about how I race. Rinse and repeat. Same track, different tracks, over time, Sophy will get better and better at knowing how I drive and offer customized events/content based on how I like to play.
Could Sophy become our content creator, our best racing partner, our coach, our little pet AI?
A crude example. Could Sophy be tasked to review my 20 laps at Redbull and learn where I am fast, decent and slow? How, because it knows my inputs and all the telemetry. Then, Sophy will come race with me live, but with 3 versions of itself (that address various exploits against me) to try to learn even more about how I race. Rinse and repeat. Same track, different tracks, over time, Sophy will get better and better at knowing how I drive and offer customized events/content based on how I like to play.
Could Sophy become our content creator, our best racing partner, our coach, our little pet AI?
- 87,105
- Rule 12
- GTP_Famine
I can't believe anyone truly put any stock in that Youtube comment. It should be pretty obvious Sony are not going to formally announce anything in that manner or that regional sections of Sony are going to have first hand knowledge of an unreleased feature.
It was just a random social media dude guessing and/or telling people what they wanted to hear.
But yes, until PD actually decide to talk about the system and how it'll actually be used, we're in the dark and guessing/hoping.
It was just a random social media dude guessing and/or telling people what they wanted to hear.
That all sounds very good, and something I've been saying they should have added a while back on top of the licence tests, a proper driver trainer.
But yes, until PD actually decide to talk about the system and how it'll actually be used, we're in the dark and guessing/hoping.
- 87,105
- Rule 12
- GTP_Famine
I have no idea, and can't see any reasonable way anyone would expect us to know the answer.
It's literally nothing to do with us at all. We merely reported that it was said by an official Gran Turismo source - the Italian language channel moderator. I expect they have a different job now though.
- 126
- Sweden
- Bornhall
Weeeeell, I wouldn't think we will have a learning AI on-console, so to speak. Sure, it's far from impossible, but there's a huge difference between training a model, and using a model. Training a model takes time, and it's not for the layman really. I'm sure we could get a parameter or two to tweak, but that's likely only in relation to what features Sophy have access to and at what sample rate. A model that can make decisions at 60 Hz can maybe handle situations that would cause a 5 Hz model to spin out. I'm sure there is someone better versed in machine learning than me who can explain it better, but the model (when trained) is not likely anything we can fiddle much with.
I believe this could be feasible at least. Sophy could compare the telemetry, steering input and such between its own run and yours, and give you hints on where you lose time, brake too soon or too late, gear choice and so on. I think it might be able to without too much effort train a player-specific model that is based on a given Sophy model, but with the added "quirks" of how you drive, say that you always take a more curve-like line in a hairpin, where the model would take a more V-shaped line. It basically adopts your flaws.
But, I think such an effort is in the future either way. If they can get better "AI" in the game, even if only by a little, that is a welcome addition in my book.
Maybe not Sophy, I'd say that model is limited to driving a car in a competitive manner on track. However, a machine learning algorithm could probably train a model that analyzes your races against the game's opponents, and tweak the difficulty of your opponents in a championshio to accomodate your skill level, taking into account how you approach tyre choice, pit strategies and so on. I assume most of us wants the challenge, not just sailing to P1 on lap 1.
To summarize, machine learning (which is in my opinion a much better term than AI) can be used for a lot of things, but don't make the mistake that Sophy as it stands can do all of the above.
dabz343
(Banned)
- 950
- United States
- dabz343
Yes exactly, this is the kind of scenario I was imagining too. As someone else mentioned above that a proper driver trainer would be valuable, I agree if PD could leverage Sophy to also inhabit a supporting role -- rather than just a speed demon -- then the fans may enjoy a very unique experience that does not currently exist in sim titles anywhere. If developed with clear intentions, the ML competency for GT could be the innovation they've been searching for. Dare I say, a single player experience unlike anything before.
As I suggest above, imagine a customized content for every user? How? Because it play the game along with you.
Yes, training an agent take loads of data, but if PD could offer a mature version and allowed an aggregated learning framework to evolve another version, and so on, then things cold really be accelerated. Take for example the original AlphaGo. That took years to develop, but once it was mature, the next version (think it was AlphaZero) became even more astounding in just a few weeks.
The broad world of ML and AGI is like the binary cosmos of mysticism, ethics and convoluted logic. So who really knows what Kaz is imagining.
- 1,475
- Texas
- JoshsoJB
A bit too much rear contact because they stayed so close to the car in front but really cool otherwise. Smooth inputs, not crazy aggressive except for what I mentioned, and no crazy track exploits.
A simple ballpark timeframe they're aiming for to implement this into GT or an update on where they're at with it currently would be nice.
A simple ballpark timeframe they're aiming for to implement this into GT or an update on where they're at with it currently would be nice.
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