Gran Turismo Sport Cross Over To A Real Simulator To Satisfy The Wheel Market

[RacingGrandpa]

Excuse me sir but Zaphop Beeblebrox was president of the galaxy, not emperor.

Absolutely correct! Sorry for my lapsus. Must have been a second head mistake.

 

[Samus]

when I use Simulator controls in a competition race against other drivers , why can I not be called a Sim Driver. That can be said for the DS4 user why can’t they be called Sim Drivers.

You can. But you're both still playing a game.

 

[Darla Starch]

Why is there so much out cry to make me a gamer, when I use Simulator controls in a competition race against other drivers , why can I not be called a Sim Driver. That can be said for the DS4 user why can’t they be called Sim Drivers.

...are we reading the same thread here?

Nobody said you couldn't call yourself a quote-unquote "simulator racer". The point we've been trying to hammer home for the past month has been that:

• Your best best to have a race just for wheel users isn't going to come from the developers because SHOCK not everyone has the space for a rig. You're gonna have to do the legwork on this: open up a league for GT Sport that mandates wheel usage.
• Perhaps you're taking the game way too seriously. It's cool that you do; hell, I take Crusader Kings 2 seriously enough I've spent several hours over the course of a week outlining my family tree in a save in the Game of Thrones mod for literally no reason other than my own enjoyment. However, no matter what they're still games at the end of the day. Perspective.

 

[Redneckchef]

Maybe you are on to something Apple is the name of a computer that using a different OS then a PC computer. They are “BOTH” using the same internet. You could say the only difference is there OS. We call the people who use them by different names Mac user and PC user. Why is there so much out cry to make me a gamer, when I use Simulator controls in a competition race against other drivers , why can I not be called a Sim Driver. That can be said for the DS4 user why can’t they be called Sim Drivers.

But, the buttons and sticks on the DS4 are being used to SIMULATE the control inputs used to drive a car.

I press the R2 and L2 smoothly and gradually or stomp on them hard like pedals.

I gradually turn the L3 stick in varying stages to simulate the degree of input on a steering wheel and I shift gears with buttons, the input being the same electrical pulse to the gearbox to initiate a shift like happens when you use the shifter paddles in real cars.

I'm a SIM racer. As Simulation means NOT the Real thing but a facsimile using artificial inputs and an artificial environment.
And I have a blast playing my racing game.


Get over that ego and it can be lots of fun. Or is that not why we spend all that time on the GAME?

 

[ScottPuss20]

That can be said for the DS4 user why can’t they be called Sim Drivers.

Ha! You have got to be kidding me mate. I've beaten WHEEL USERS on merit, and I'm by no means the fastest driver to ever use a controller. I'm not even "normal" as I have a crippling muscle condition which is only going to get worse (unless I can be cured, which is unlikely), so I just laugh off these ignorant claims. People have praised me for my efforts despite all my troubles. I have played soo many games and driven soo many cars across the board, from Need For Speed to Forza Horizon to Assetto Corsa. I don't limit myself to certain games because I'm on a controller.

 

[AwfulDriver]

I'm not going to waste time arguing the difference or similarities between the term sim racer vs gamer. To me, the logic is the same as the square vs rectangle comparison - A rectangle is a square but a square is not a rectangle (i.e. A sim racer is a gamer but a gamer is not necessarily a sim racer).

Now back to the reason I'm writing this post...

I sort of understand and somewhat agree with the original post. GT Sport should experiment with an input based race where wheel/pedal players and controller players are separated. Just as some people would argue a mouse vs controller players should be separated on FPS games. The effort required to maintain top speed on a controller is significantly less work than a wheel/pedal setup. As some have mentioned, you need to exercise both feet and hand coordination, change gears while maintaining proper steering rotation, fight against a force feedback motor and potentially driving with the hand and steering wheel being directly in front of you and obstructing your view. The controller on the other hand does not provide any friction like a force feedback motor and is purposely designed to give mostly all players the ability to race in any ergonomic position with minimal physical activity. To say there is no difference and that it's all the same is a little ignorant.

When GT Sport introduced FIA races - it seemed to me the competition aspect should be held to a higher degree of scrutiny in order to provide a fair playing field as a potential esport. Just as in real sports - competition is highly regulated by the equipment used to perform any particular task. Why is this not a consideration for Racing Games?

I assume there is not enough wheel/pedal users to justify having separate lobby's or maybe they want to avoid excluding controller based gamers from certain experiences.

It doesn't really matter to much to me personally but I can see merit in the idea and would encourage GT Sport to experiment and potentially edge closer to a pure simulation experience rather than a "simcade".

 

[O604]

Pretty sure internet connection quality is more significant than device input. I would think the average PS consumer is on wireless not wired. So unless that changes, is there a point?

 

[FPV MIC]

I sort of understand and somewhat agree with the original post. GT Sport should experiment with an input based race where wheel/pedal players and controller players are separated. Just as some people would argue a mouse vs controller players should be separated on FPS games. The effort required to maintain top speed on a controller is significantly less work than a wheel/pedal setup. As some have mentioned, you need to exercise both feet and hand coordination, change gears while maintaining proper steering rotation, fight against a force feedback motor and potentially driving with the hand and steering wheel being directly in front of you and obstructing your view.

Less physical work maybe, but you still have to apply steering, throttle, brake and gears on both control methods. Perhaps coordination is even more important for the controller user as they have a much smaller range of movement to modulate their inputs.

And if your wheel is obstructing your view then you need to adjust your setup

The controller on the other hand does not provide any friction like a force feedback motor and is purposely designed to give mostly all players the ability to race in any ergonomic position with minimal physical activity. To say there is no difference and that it's all the same is a little ignorant.

That's actually a negative for the controller user. The FFB is designed to give the wheel user extra information the DS4/5 user doesn't get and from what I've heard about the traps many of the top guys run with very low FFB settings so they can react quicker anyway.

When GT Sport introduced FIA races - it seemed to me the competition aspect should be held to a higher degree of scrutiny in order to provide a fair playing field as a potential esport. Just as in real sports - competition is highly regulated by the equipment used to perform any particular task. Why is this not a consideration for Racing Games?

It is restricted to a certain degree in that only PlayStation licenced products are supposed to be able to be used (Drivehub does mess that up a bit though) and once it gets to the very top of the FIA Championship events everyone is restricted to the same setup.

I assume there is not enough wheel/pedal users to justify having separate lobby's or maybe they want to avoid excluding controller based gamers from certain experiences.

It wouldn't be wise for Sony and PD to exclude the control method that actually comes with the console, and yes I would think there'd be issues with player numbers if you split the devices. There's already some pretty poorly grouped races now.

It doesn't really matter to much to me personally but I can see merit in the idea and would encourage GT Sport to experiment and potentially edge closer to a pure simulation experience rather than a "simcade".

Edging closer towards simulation is down to the games physics, not the input method

 

[AwfulDriver]

To be clear, my post is not to argue the speed of inputs or the speed of the internet nor is it to say that top controller players perform better than top wheel/pedal players.

Also, I'm glad to hear the FIA Championship races acknowledge this aspect by restricting player setup so thanks for the info @FPV MIC. I also agree with the physics vs input comment as well.

Ignoring or brushing off the difference between the two does seem inappropriate though. There is a difference in the level and type of activity between the two inputs to suggest more experimentation on GT Sport. Seems like its currently matching the skill set of an RC Car racer with an Automobile racer. Potentially border-lining on an unfair competitive advantage for one or the other depending on the track and speed required. I believe GT Sport does a lot to remove the unfair advantage already. Just compare Assetto Corsa to GT Sports approach to using a controller. GT Sport does a couple things such as having a damper to the controller steering input.

Call of Duty and other online games have recently merged PC and console gamers and have provided options to choose who you would like to play against as well as displaying the input type of other users. I mention this because I believe they have identified other players concerns regarding a potential unfair advantage between one input over the other.

 

[O604]

To be clear, my post is not to argue the speed of inputs or the speed of the internet nor is it to say that top controller players perform better than top wheel/pedal players.

Also, I'm glad to hear the FIA Championship races acknowledge this aspect by restricting player setup so thanks for the info @FPV MIC. I also agree with the physics vs input comment as well.

Ignoring or brushing off the difference between the two does seem inappropriate though. There is a difference in the level and type of activity between the two inputs to suggest more experimentation on GT Sport. Seems like its currently matching the skill set of an RC Car racer with an Automobile racer. Potentially border-lining on an unfair competitive advantage for one or the other depending on the track and speed required. I believe GT Sport does a lot to remove the unfair advantage already. Just compare Assetto Corsa to GT Sports approach to using a controller. GT Sport does a couple things such as having a damper to the controller steering input.

Call of Duty and other online games have recently merged PC and console gamers and have provided options to choose who you would like to play against as well as displaying the input type of other users. I mention this because I believe they have identified other players concerns regarding a potential unfair advantage between one input over the other.

Keep in mind at competitions it's not just restricted to wheels. It's restricted to the T-GT only. There are "better" wheels and worse ones. There also mods for pedals. If any of this made a difference, I don't think it would be all lumped together into Sports Mode. ie. they track this stuff, they stopped allowing shifters because of it.

I mentioned earlier, it's down to the ones and zeros programmed. And since Sony doesn't sell a wheel, I think we can assume they program the limits for a controller.

Not directed at anyone and I don't speak for everyone but I feel GT has traditionally attracted car nerds, not necessarily racers. Players used to take pride in learning, besting themselves. But online racing has become popular and I guess it a big part of GT now. I really detest the alpha-male crap it brings out in people. It's been a real down-side to an otherwise great experience.

 

[Junkman55]

It’s has been just 5 months since I posted on the wheel market place in Gran Turismo and look what we see Fanatec is building direct drive wheels and they are partnering With Sony and PD on making Gran Turismo wheel setups. The Simulator market has been growing bigger and with better products , let’s hope it will make it affordable for more people to participate in simulator online racing or just simulator driving on their computer or consoles

 

[Kermit_2142]

It’s has been just 5 months since I posted on the wheel market place in Gran Turismo and look what we see Fanatec is building direct drive wheels and they are partnering With Sony and PD on making Gran Turismo wheel setups. The Simulator market has been growing bigger and with better products , let’s hope it will make it affordable for more people to participate in simulator online racing or just simulator driving on their computer or consoles

You don’t need to buy one when you can make your own. Better for the environment too.

 

[CBH]

let’s hope it will make it affordable for more people to participate in simulator online racing

 

[Darla Starch]

Way ahead of y'all on the sustainable simulator racing thing

 

[mirial]

It has been a tease driving in GTS as a online Simulator driver, when there is No wheel and pedal race available . Don’t get me wrong DS4 Drivers are good competition. They are not driving a simulator they are Gamers , on a DS4 controller.

A Simulator driver is using hands ,legs, feet and fingers to compete were the Gamer is only using their fingers in the same competition race.

I understand to fill a online race in the 3 daily’s you might need both Gamers and Simulator Drivers to make a field of 12 or more for a line up. What I would like to see is one race from PD where the people who spent thousands to drive their race.

Maybe with the delay of GT7 it is GTS time for PD to experiment to make “The Real Driving Simulator” it advertised in their title for the Simulator Driver to have their race.

I think what you'd like to see is GTS divided into two groups; those that are experienced and want a challenge using a wheel, and who want refinement, and those who just want to have fun, regardless of what hardware they use...I'm willing to bet it's the top 1% vs the remaining 99%. PD have made some terrible assumptions in this game and have structured everything around a flawed strategy. But they are determined to get all abilities to try and fill all classes by being very timid with the regulations etc. It's a bit like the UCI changing the Tour de France from a 2000 mile race for pros to a 20 mile race for everybody where they have to use 200 euro mountain bikes in order to encourage beginners and to artificially keep things close. It's gonna be very boring for the riders and spectators.

Taking this in to account, those that are more serious and want a more immersive experience despite the cost of a wheel, or even space limitations will make the effort to actually get hold of a wheel from somewhere and cobble something together that allows them get the basic driving position and to be potentially more competitive.

When it comes to hardware, I wouldn't say there is a huge difference between a TGT and Fanatec's finest, but when compared to a DS4, there is no contest.

 

[Junkman55]

I think what you'd like to see is GTS divided into two groups; those that are experienced and want a challenge using a wheel, and who want refinement, and those who just want to have fun, regardless of what hardware they use...I'm willing to bet it's the top 1% vs the remaining 99%. PD have made some terrible assumptions in this game and have structured everything around a flawed strategy. But they are determined to get all abilities to try and fill all classes by being very timid with the regulations etc. It's a bit like the UCI changing the Tour de France from a 2000 mile race for pros to a 20 mile race for everybody where they have to use 200 euro mountain bikes in order to encourage beginners and to artificially keep things close. It's gonna be very boring for the riders and spectators.

Taking this in to account, those that are more serious and want a more immersive experience despite the cost of a wheel, or even space limitations will make the effort to actually get hold of a wheel from somewhere and cobble something together that allows them get the basic driving position and to be potentially more competitive.

When it comes to hardware, I wouldn't say there is a huge difference between a TGT and Fanatec's finest, but when compared to a DS4, there is no contest.

Let’s keep this simple moving fingers to control with a DS4 is not same as using most of your body parts to drive with a wheel and pedal setup. You are right “there is no contest”.

 

[RacingGrandpa]

 

[mirial]

Let’s keep this simple moving fingers to control with a DS4 is not same as using most of your body parts to drive with a wheel and pedal setup. You are right “there is no contest”.

The DS4 is totally inadequate to control a vehicle of any kind on a console, mostly because the control sticks are far too short to produce a precise, controlled output using the thumbs. You'll never quite get 100% linear motion with the steering, throttle or brakes either because the sticks will never be quite at 0,180, 90 or 270 degrees.

I don't think much will change for GT7 as the Dualsense controller carries over the same flaws as the DS4. Sony would have been better designing a budget controller specific for use with car games that give a similar level of precision to that of an R/C car transmitter. At least the level of precision would be comparable to a wheel, and PD would not have to compromise GT so much to suit the limitations of the DS4.

 

[RacingGrandpa]

The DS4 is totally inadequate to control a vehicle of any kind on a console, mostly because the control sticks are far too short to produce a precise, controlled output using the thumbs. You'll never quite get 100% linear motion with the steering, throttle or brakes either because the sticks will never be quite at 0,180, 90 or 270 degrees.

I don't think much will change for GT7 as the Dualsense controller carries over the same flaws as the DS4. Sony would have been better designing a budget controller specific for use with car games that give a similar level of precision to that of an R/C car transmitter. At least the level of precision would be comparable to a wheel, and PD would not have to compromise GT so much to suit the limitations of the DS4.

That's all very well but not right at all. You should check out players like @GOTMAXPOWER and his youtube channel to see that precise control is perfectly possible on a ds4, even if you don't feel you can achieve it

 

[GOTMAXPOWER]

That's all very well but not right at all. You should check out players like @GOTMAXPOWER and his youtube channel to see that precise control is perfectly possible on a ds4, even if you don't feel you can achieve it

🤷‍♂️

 

[watto79]

🤷‍♂️
View attachment 1071902

The hand brake light comes on. Which means you did that on purpose. You were also doing a 3 stop strat in a 9 lap race.

You make me feel very inadequate sometimes.

 

[Famine]

What kind of mind looks at the 12 pages of absolute rinsing it got and decides it's a good idea to remind everyone of it?

 

[GOTMAXPOWER]

The hand brake light comes on. Which means you did that on purpose. You were also doing a 3 stop strat in a 9 lap race.

You make me feel very inadequate sometimes.

That was before they changed the pit length so a stop only cost around 2s. I play on a controller so am a handbrake yob not a serious gamer.

The toy steering wheels are quicker so I wouldn't be able to catch anybody decent on one of those anyway...

 

[fastone371]

That's all very well but not right at all. You should check out players like @GOTMAXPOWER and his youtube channel to see that precise control is perfectly possible on a ds4, even if you don't feel you can achieve it

There is no denying that there are many extremely fast players on DS4's just like there is no denying that DS4 users are getting help with car control unavailable to wheel users. If not for the extra help that Polyphony affords DS4 users it wouldn't be competitive between the 2 inputs so it's hard to make true comparisons. I have always wanted to sacrifice a DS4 or 2 and find a way to use my wheel base to drive with the PS4 thinking I am using a DS4, I think it would be an extremely fast input method.

 

[O604]

If not for the extra help that Polyphony affords DS4 users it wouldn't be competitive between the 2 inputs so it's hard to make true comparisons.

Extra help? It's the default controller. How does that even make sense?

 

[Skinny McLean]

I have always wanted to sacrifice a DS4 or 2 and find a way to use my wheel base to drive with the PS4 thinking I am using a DS4

If you own a PC, you can use a GIMX adapter instead - I'm sure it's both cheaper and easier. You can buy one already assembled, or you can build one yourself (it's an Arduino Pro Micro mated with a USB-Serial adapter.) It's small enough to fit in a matchbox, and allows any PC compatible input peripheral to work on the PS by masquerading as a Logitech wheel, a DS4 etc.

I think it would be an extremely fast input method.

While it could be interesting to experiment with, I doubt the DS4 low-pass filtered steering and speed-sensitive maximum lock is helpful when on a wheel.

 

[BigSarj]

Has anyone ever tried to use stick extenders like Kontrol Freek? I use one on the right stick for every game out there. I wonder how it would be on the left stick for racing.

 

[ImaRobot]

Extra help? It's the default controller. How does that even make sense?

It makes sense because the default controller gets additional aid's and dampening with steering input that aren't available to wheel users. It's to help with steering because of the obvious difference in lock-to-lock steering inputs. There's an obvious large gap missing for pad users compared to wheel users. It's like that for most of the major titles that' aren't heavy on physics and are trying to reach a wide audience, they want as many people to play the game so they give extra help with steering optimization and inputs, so they make it easier and widely accessible.

 

[O604]

I feel like I may burst a lot of bubbles for some wheel people so I'll stop. That's not my intention.

Kind of on topic but I'm training to use the D-pad on the wheel. So I can turn around quick when I go off track. I could do it with the wheel but I feel if I can learn to do it on the d-pad, it may be more consistent.

 

[mirial]

That's all very well but not right at all. You should check out players like @GOTMAXPOWER and his youtube channel to see that precise control is perfectly possible on a ds4, even if you don't feel you can achieve it

Yes indeed, but look at the compromises PD have had to make to all the cars to allow DS4 users to find the cars drivable and to be competitive.

Why do you think PD almost never allow open settings in weekly races for race cars, not even one little race, or FIAs? Because open settings allow the car to be setup within a smaller window of performance which is much harder for the DS4 user to control, never mind be competitive. The level of precision required, particularly with small steering corrections when a car becomes more nervous on race tyres would be on the next level.