Gran Turismo Sport Cross Over To A Real Simulator To Satisfy The Wheel Market

[Kermit_2142]

Yes, but IMO the races would be better to be split into 3 basic groups with increasing levels of difficulty. Since the beginning of GTS, all races including dailies are for all abilities to take part and they're all easy. There's hardly any progression from one car class to the next in GTS because if you've noticed, the higher the PP, the more the cars have been dumbed down so that beginners can take part without it being too difficult.



Because of what Pigems said above:

"Steering yes, throttle and brake I’m not so sure. GTS’s ABS helps everyone equally in this game, it’s waaaaay overpowered regardless of input device. You can literally just floor the brakes in any car in the game, without ever even having to think about breaking traction from brake pressure."

For beginners, how can they possibly learn how to get better if all the feedback and car response is cancelled out completely for them?

In karting, you learn how to brake properly straight away. At a good racing school, they make you drive a tail-happy car straight away so you get confident and in to good habits right away. Good habits being looking ahead the right amount of every given task; braking, rotation, acceleration etc.

"World tour" drivers get round the excessive ABS and understeer by downshifting into a much lower gear mid-corner and then short-shifting back into the correct gear. You can call it skill, but there is no real penalty if you get this "trick" wrong either, unlike in reality. Even though it's "just a game" it should bear some resemblance to reality...reality or close to it is much more fun, and it makes you much sharper and better.

Sorry but I completely disagree.

The DR system is very good at putting drivers with appropriate competition no matter the car class being raced. I also fail to see how the “faster cars” are dumbed down, gr1 is the most difficult class to get right. The technique differences between classes is also distinct enough that you must alter your style of driving to suit.

With regards to critiquing world tour drivers, I would prefer actual footage with a proper description. An off the cuff remark doesn’t really cut it imo.

I’ve not seen any world tour drivers simply floor the brakes just because abs will save them. Trail braking and minimising abs use is exactly what generates a faster lap time. Also a lot of race cars use abs these days so having that off wouldn’t really make sense, and karts have only rear brakes (I think?) so that comparison is irrelevant too.

I do agree the game should teach the player “how” to drive by using more substantial licensing.

As for the downshifting on apex “trick” , I believe that’s down to the fact races are using frozen gear boxes which obviously won’t be optimised per circuit. I would anticipate given this option in real life a driver may do the same if they were also given the same kind of setup.

I think your leaning more on the side of - problems with the physics or car setups, more than - any problems with which controller input is used, and what assits the game offers for that input.

 

[Groundfish]

It sounds like you’re just not playing the right game, the game you are describing is already out, and has been since 2008, it’s called iRacing. GT is a “for everybody” game, it will never be 100% sim, and it would lose too much of its player base by going to far towards a full sim.

This. +1000.
Also, in GTS, in my experience you can reach a point, where you end up without too many people to race, IF you dial in to a combo…
Imo honestly B S is a really nice sweet spot.
It’s about the people you race and how they drive. GTS can be very grindy as you get up around top 1.5 % and up and imo sometimes more arcade. This is due to the mindset and arcade game style and hyper competitive nature of the players. If they can gain arcade advantage over you they will. They will take advantage of the physics engine-at that point it’s LESS of a sim and more of just an arcade get ahead at any and all costs bs mess.
Mid level GTS is much more realistic in my experience.
Great comment though re full sim.
I still haven’t got iracing yet, I have been enjoying RF2 and AMS2.
I think it’s worth saying-if a person is on the fence regarding pc titles-if you like ffb and realism it’s well worth it. You may never have anymore interest in the console tbh.
Thing is pc demands more from you than console.
The driving is far far better but it is not as simple as turning on the game and immediately driving.
Once it’s setup it is, more or less.
I’ve always said and still believe GTS is great, for everyone.
It’s most definitely not slanted towards an enthusiast though.
After driving gts at a pretty decent level the inputs on pc sims are the same pretty much. In fact I’m many ways pc is EASIER to drive than GTS.
At any rate…
I really hope Fanatec pumps out a metric ton of csl dd and the new affordable lc brake so more folks can experience sim driving in gts on good gear.

 

[Yard_Sale]

I play iRacing all the time now, and the inputs required to drive the same tracks, in the same cars, as GTS, is about the same in iRacing. So I think GT has it more right then you believe, since iRacing is supposed to be the most realistic simulator and all. The biggest difference between the two it the throttle, GTS has way more wheel spin than iRacing out of slow corners.

I agree with you on this. I think GTS has it more right than people think. The one thing that is super unrealistic about GTS is how hard you can hit kerbs in the chicane's ect.

I think people that want true sims, already play those games too...or will eventually find there way too them. However, I do think that the Gran Turismo franchise has the opportunity to be more or less a "1 stop shop" for a wide array of players.

To achieve this, you HAVE to keep the physics accessible to the masses. If they added one daily race that has some tuning and a more sim feel, PD could easily do it and not have it be intimidating to someone that doesn’t know anything about cars.

This is what I would do:

TCS - adjustability same as now
BB - same as now
Fuel Mapping - same as now
ABS - default, weak, off (same as now)

New tuning adjustments that you have the OPTION of altering:

• Longitudinal weight Bias
• fuel load adjustment for start of race (will play into handling and strategy)
• suspension damper adjustment - default (per car), soft, firm

- brake duct opening - would play into strategy and ever so slightly alter the Aero’s
- tire pressure adjustments - for very slight handling tweaks and possible strategy gains

Those adjustments I think would give the “sim guys” what they want, and be easily understandable by the masses if the so CHOSE to alter them. And most of the above new adjustment settings are more related to strategy anyways and/or to further tailor a car to your driving style

 

[Kermit_2142]

This. +1000.
Also, in GTS, in my experience you can reach a point, where you end up without too many people to race, IF you dial in to a combo…
Imo honestly B S is a really nice sweet spot.
It’s about the people you race and how they drive. GTS can be very grindy as you get up around top 1.5 % and up and imo sometimes more arcade. This is due to the mindset and arcade game style and hyper competitive nature of the players. If they can gain arcade advantage over you they will. They will take advantage of the physics engine-at that point it’s LESS of a sim and more of just an arcade get ahead at any and all costs bs mess.
Mid level GTS is much more realistic in my experience.
Great comment though re full sim.
I still haven’t got iracing yet, I have been enjoying RF2 and AMS2.
I think it’s worth saying-if a person is on the fence regarding pc titles-if you like ffb and realism it’s well worth it. You may never have anymore interest in the console tbh.
Thing is pc demands more from you than console.
The driving is far far better but it is not as simple as turning on the game and immediately driving.
Once it’s setup it is, more or less.
I’ve always said and still believe GTS is great, for everyone.
It’s most definitely not slanted towards an enthusiast though.
After driving gts at a pretty decent level the inputs on pc sims are the same pretty much. In fact I’m many ways pc is EASIER to drive than GTS.
At any rate…
I really hope Fanatec pumps out a metric ton of csl dd and the new affordable lc brake so more folks can experience sim driving in gts on good gear.

There’s a video on YouTube somewhere (I couldn’t find it to share it, sorry) that shows how even rf2 can be broken physics wise by setups that make no sense, and to compete at top levels those “cheats” have to be used. All sims are nothing more than arcade games with more, less, or differing physics depth.

 

[Groundfish]

GTS will never be able to compete with more specialized titles that require better hardware.
Plus the pen system lol

edit @Kermit_2142

Imo any sim-at absolute top level is unreal.
Im not saying unrealistic setups don’t work-my main point is the difference between driving GTS and say iracing or RF2 or ACC even.
The difference is NIGHT AND DAY.
I dunno about realism and I haven’t messed with setups on pc as of yet.
But it’s so much better on pc as to be laughable to compare.
Just framerate alone is a huge diff, plus fov adjustments, everything is so much better.
I like GTS though. It’s really great for what it is-it just can’t compare to the driving you get in something more specialized for that.
That said there’s a lot to be said for the polish on GTS menu music liveries screensaver etc those adders make a difference too

 

[Kermit_2142]

GTS will never be able to compete with more specialized titles that require better hardware.
Plus the pen system lol

edit @Kermit_2142

Imo any sim-at absolute top level is unreal.
Im not saying unrealistic setups don’t work-my main point is the difference between driving GTS and say iracing or RF2 or ACC even.
The difference is NIGHT AND DAY.
I dunno about realism and I haven’t messed with setups on pc as of yet.
But it’s so much better on pc as to be laughable to compare.
Just framerate alone is a huge diff, plus fov adjustments, everything is so much better.
I like GTS though. It’s really great for what it is-it just can’t compare to the driving you get in something more specialized for that.
That said there’s a lot to be said for the polish on GTS menu music liveries screensaver etc those adders make a difference too

Can I assume you agree that the simulation drivers in this thread would be best racing in a game other than gts??

 

[Groundfish]

Can I assume you agree that the simulation drivers in this thread would be best racing in a game other than gts??

No, I think that’s what’s great about sport mode. I can be in cockpit view with my racing wheel-on my wooden stand I made and get smoked by a player on ds4 if they are faster-it’s the same for all in sport mode.
If a person runs a lobby or league than they can have exclusivity…
I think it’s uncool to say anyone should leave a game…
Like really? You’re that entitled to think you ought to be able to say that? So, no I don’t think the fellow who started this thread should avoid GTS.
I think he should play what he likes, like everyone else does.
He should use a wheel if he chooses and whatever settings too.
Just race fair.
Jmo

 

[Kermit_2142]

No, I think that’s what’s great about sport mode. I can be in cockpit view with my racing wheel-on my wooden stand I made and get smoked by a player on ds4 if they are faster-it’s the same for all in sport mode.
If a person runs a lobby or league than they can have exclusivity…
I think it’s uncool to say anyone should leave a game…
Like really? You’re that entitled to think you ought to be able to say that? So, no I don’t think the fellow who started this thread should avoid GTS.
I think he should play what he likes, like everyone else does.
He should use a wheel if he chooses and whatever settings too.
Just race fair.
Jmo

No not at all, I couldn’t give a rats what anyone does with the game.

Their premise is that they don’t want to race with ds4 users because they are gamers and not sim racers.

With your response of how GTS can not compete with pc games, it would make sense to me if someone were trying to be a simulation driver they would choose an appropriate software.

I haven’t played on pc, sadly I am a ds4 gamer.

 

[Groundfish]

With your response of how GTS can not compete with pc games, it would make sense to me if someone were trying to be a simulation driver they would choose an appropriate software.

I haven’t played on pc, sadly I am a ds4 gamer.

Yeah but last time we raced it was an epic contest at Laguna Seca.
That’s why GTS is as good as it is.
I guess you are referring to the OPS ridiculous distinction-tbh I literally forgot about that nonsense.
I don’t consider his definitions anymore than a fantasy.
But everyone’s uptight about anything anyone posts anymore

 

[Kermit_2142]

Yeah but last time we raced it was an epic contest at Laguna Seca.
That’s why GTS is as good as it is.
I guess you are referring to the OPS ridiculous distinction-tbh I literally forgot about that nonsense.
I don’t consider his definitions anymore than a fantasy.
But everyone’s uptight about anything anyone posts anymore

Yep totally agree.

This thread died, it is since back from the dead. 🤦‍😂

 

[mirial]

Sorry but I completely disagree.

I also fail to see how the “faster cars” are dumbed down, gr1 is the most difficult class to get right. The technique differences between classes is also distinct enough that you must alter your style of driving to suit.

Well, if you fail to see how they are dumbed down, I could give you a setup of a particular car that is in the ball park of what I, and quite a few others believe they should be rather than try to put it into words.

With regards to critiquing world tour drivers, I would prefer actual footage with a proper description. An off the cuff remark doesn’t really cut it imo.

Watch a typical replay in TT or any other of the top ten in another event. This is the technique used to compensate because the ABS almost completely eliminates rotation and the understeer really sets in mid corner. And this stuff about ABS being acceptable in GTS is cobblers because you can adjust the ABS in ACC and still get rotation.

It sounds like you’re just not playing the right game, the game you are describing is already out, and has been since 2008, it’s called iRacing. GT is a “for everybody” game, it will never be 100% sim, and it would lose too much of its player base by going to far towards a full sim.

I know. From 2010 to 2017 we ran very competitive GT500 championships that were completely open like PURE. A sort of golden era of GT online. It gave the right balance of intense sim racing using good cars on good tracks without getting too complicated. That's all gone now.

I've toyed with the idea of iracing, but would have preferred along with many others that PD created made an exclusive SuperGT series or similar for very experienced racers.

I've also tried ACC which is very good (I think PD should think about incorporating some of it's options), but numbers are very low. They need to correct the speed of the car's yaw though as it's just too slow and this makes it very tricky with well balanced cars (you only realise the car is sliding a second after it has began to slide, when it should warn you a split second before it actually does).

 

[Pigems]

Well, if you fail to see how they are dumbed down, I could give you a setup of a particular car that is in the ball park of what I, and quite a few others believe they should be rather than try to put it into words.


Watch a typical replay in TT or any other of the top ten in another event. This is the technique used to compensate because the ABS almost completely eliminates rotation and the understeer really sets in mid corner. And this stuff about ABS being acceptable in GTS is cobblers because you can adjust the ABS in ACC and still get rotation.



I know. From 2010 to 2017 we ran very competitive GT500 championships that were completely open like PURE. A sort of golden era of GT online. It gave the right balance of intense sim racing using good cars on good tracks without getting too complicated. That's all gone now.

I've toyed with the idea of iracing, but would have preferred along with many others that PD created made an exclusive SuperGT series or similar for very experienced racers.

I've also tried ACC which is very good (I think PD should think about incorporating some of it's options), but numbers are very low. They need to correct the speed of the car's yaw though as it's just too slow and this makes it very tricky with well balanced cars (you only realise the car is sliding a second after it has began to slide, when it should warn you a split second before it actually does).

ACC just doesn’t have the player base unless you already have a community. iRacing is basically GTS done properly, with slightly less nice graphics, but way more stuff to do and people to race with.

 

[Kermit_2142]

Well, if you fail to see how they are dumbed down, I could give you a setup of a particular car that is in the ball park of what I, and quite a few others believe they should be rather than try to put it into words.


Watch a typical replay in TT or any other of the top ten in another event. This is the technique used to compensate because the ABS almost completely eliminates rotation and the understeer really sets in mid corner. And this stuff about ABS being acceptable in GTS is cobblers because you can adjust the ABS in ACC and still get rotation.



I know. From 2010 to 2017 we ran very competitive GT500 championships that were completely open like PURE. A sort of golden era of GT online. It gave the right balance of intense sim racing using good cars on good tracks without getting too complicated. That's all gone now.

I've toyed with the idea of iracing, but would have preferred along with many others that PD created made an exclusive SuperGT series or similar for very experienced racers.

I've also tried ACC which is very good (I think PD should think about incorporating some of it's options), but numbers are very low. They need to correct the speed of the car's yaw though as it's just too slow and this makes it very tricky with well balanced cars (you only realise the car is sliding a second after it has began to slide, when it should warn you a split second before it actually does).

It’s clear in all classes that cars aren’t optimised setup wise. Unless pd created the perfect setup for each car, at each track, this would always be the case no matter what they did. This doesn’t mean they’ve dumbed down the faster classes just because they require more steering input than what you think they should need.
Given sport mode uses fixed setups, it would make sense that these are designed to allow cars to have varying characters. Allowing players to pick what they like or what they are naturally fast. It also allows for progression as drivers move from cars that are easier to drive to cars that are more difficult to drive. It’s what gives the game some depth and why people enjoy the manufacturer series so much. Your forced to make the most out of what you have and that’s that.

Again, I appreciate your comments on top 10 laps but it’s hard to argue what your saying without footage of what you mean. If cars were setup in a way you would prefer, would a world tour driver still beat you with the same setup? If so, the setup itself is irrelevant.

 

[Yard_Sale]

That’s the good thing about GTS. Even at this stage in the games life where it’s growing very long in tooth…. I can log on and be in a full lobby in 2 minutes flat. The utter convenience is worth its short comings.

 

[Junkman55]

Excuse my ignorance if I'm wrong but I believe the toy steering wheels have an option to change how far you rotate the wheel for full lock which doesn't sound realistic.

The wheel is not the problem the reaction time advantage it is in the DS4 braking

 

[Philtaylor17]

@Junkman55

If you give pad users 1 advantage ( IF btw ) against the many advantages of using a wheel, they are still at a disadvantage, just slightly less so wouldn't you agree. I dont understand why anyone would want controllers to be at an even greater disadvantage, thats just pay to win at that point. I could understand if controllers where the quicker method but they just aren't.

If the pad was the best control method in the game, almost all of the top players would be using it, because people are competitive like that.

If its possible to make controllers even more competitive with the wheel without having to do something to nerf wheel users then they should do it, you want to race people on equal terms after all right? Thats one of the great things about racing online, budget doesn't have to come into it like it does IRL.

You still get to have the enjoyment and extra realism of a wheel, but you get a more competitive grid to race against, which has always been one of GTS' big selling point.

 

[RacingGrandpa]

Yep totally agree.

This thread died, it is since back from the dead. 🤦‍😂

I blame the "Similar threads" listing after the update

 

[Junkman55]

PD has did a good job in blending driving skills using the two controller in GTS. The problem is the reaction time in driving between the two controller. if you are better on DS4 over the simulator controller you get an advantage over the sim driver . Reading similar threads most say they win more on the DS4 over the sim wheel setup for what ever reason. I happen to think if you are moving just your fingers your reaction time is better then someone using most of their body parts to do the same thing.

 

[El_Beardo]

PD has did a good job in blending driving skills using the two controller in GTS. The problem is the reaction time in driving between the two controller. if you are better on DS4 over the simulator controller you get an advantage over the sim driver . Reading similar threads most say they win more on the DS4 over the sim wheel setup for what ever reason. I happen to think if you are moving just your fingers your reaction time is better then someone using most of their body parts to do the same thing.

You are definitely trolling at this point.

Genuinely surprised that this thread hasn't been nuked from orbit.

 

[Samus]

PD has did a good job in blending driving skills using the two controller in GTS. The problem is the reaction time in driving between the two controller. if you are better on DS4 over the simulator controller you get an advantage over the sim driver . Reading similar threads most say they win more on the DS4 over the sim wheel setup for what ever reason. I happen to think if you are moving just your fingers your reaction time is better then someone using most of their body parts to do the same thing.

Now you think people can move their finger faster than their foot?

 

[El_Beardo]

Kudos to Famine, though.

If I was admin/mod, I'd have locked this thread months ago.

 

[watto79]

Reading similar threads most say they win more on the DS4 over the sim wheel setup for what ever reason.

Could you provide some examples of this?

 

[Philtaylor17]

So what we're saying is, if your better on a pad than you are on a wheel, you might win more on the pad? Well, yeah....

And maybe there is an advantage in reaction speed idk, but it doesn't counter the advantages you get on a wheel so there isn't an issue there.

 

[El_Beardo]

Could you provide some examples of this?

I'll be genuinely surprised if he does. He's provided no evidence whatsoever, for anything, so far.

 

[O604]

The wheel is not the problem the reaction time advantage it is in the DS4 braking

The wheel is not the problem, you are.

Anyways, for anyone else, I always post this clip but I just noticed how all the other drivers aren't calling foul on Villeneuve for using a controller. Like, what a cheater right?

 

[GOTMAXPOWER]

most say they win more on the DS4 over the sim wheel setup

Wanna swap setups? I'll even pay half of the postage.

 

[Darla Starch]

Kudos to Famine, though.

If I was admin/mod, I'd have locked this thread months ago.

If anything, I think Famine kinda enjoys the trainwreck and is content to let it play out.

 

[O604]

Wanna swap setups? I'll even pay half of the postage.

Somebody say yes. If we work together, we can take the controller away from GMP.

 

[Junkman55]

I would like to see one race added to the daily online racing program having choice of Controller, That’s it Nothing more.

 

[Darla Starch]

...in other words, keep things the same?

Gotcha, champ.