Gran Turismo Sport Cross Over To A Real Simulator To Satisfy The Wheel Market

[mirial]

Woulda coulda shoulda, IF…
Imo inability to adapt to the character of the car vs someone adapting to it and being faster demonstrates the second driver has more overall skill.

Well, I mentioned previously I couldn't be bothered. It would have been a bit like unlearning riding a bike for many years without stabilisers to going back to using stabilsers again for the sake of those learning to ride a bike.

A good driver can observe the cars behavior and provide inputs to be fast.

I can observe that, but if I find what is required to be fast means unlearning habits that have been acquired over years, I won't be bothered.

You are playing the “I’m superior in my own mind”
It’s in effect “if my cars were setup to be faster than everyone else’s I’d be on the world tour”

I believe in driving with a degree of refinement and finesses to be superior to driving using trickery to win at all costs which numb the brain. Just speculating, but I'd think this is why Verstappen and Norris are so good because they have probably been conditioned early to driving properly, partly by the sims as they have routinely employed good driving habits. If you were to get into a racing car or kart tomorrow you'd want to at least want to make the experience easier (and safer) for yourself by being able to adapt very quickly because you have mastered good driving habits.

ABS default caused a ton of understeer when we had the Notdschleife races with the street 911 new vs old last time.
For my style weak was far superior and on default I couldn’t rotate.

Indeed it is, which demands more finesse and skill, so secretly it sounds like you agree with a lot I've said already.

^^^^^^^^^^

This! You have the outliers on both ends, but generally I always felt those who where willing to invest in the wheels and such are more likely to spend more time using it, meaning they are likely on the quicker side of the driver spectrum.

And relevant to the OP, dividing GTS into two: "Real" vs "Arcade" would resolve so many issues, including technical ones for the developers. I'm sure almost everyone in "Real" would be a wheel user whilst Arcade would be a good mix.

PD have incorrectly assumed beginners with a DS4 want to be a World Tour finalist, when in reality 99.9% of DS4 users just want to play the game by virtue that they are just not as in to it as the wheel users.

 

[Redneckchef]

PD have incorrectly assumed beginners with a DS4 want to be a World Tour finalist, when in reality 99.9% of DS4 users just want to play the game by virtue that they are just not as in to it as the wheel users.

I vowed I wouldnt return to comment, but this right here is why this is all wrong. By virtue of this statement you show yourself to be disparaging anyone who doesn't play the way you think is correct. I have monetary and housing constraints that realistically prevent me from investing in gear. By your reasoning I dont have the same interest in the game because I prefer to put a roof over my children's heads and food on their plate over investing $1k or more in a wheel setup. (This is a realistic cost, and on the cheap side where I live)

I take the game very seriously, work to improve my driving, car controls and my ability to adapt my driving to what the cars or track require. This is what good racing drivers do, adapt to get the best out of the car as it is. The teams do work to improve how the cars are set up, but when the race begins they have to get the best from what they've got.

I may not focus on maximizing my DR and practicing for hours for an FIA race, but I take my racing seriously and work very hard to improve and race better every time.

If you believe that my investment in the game is measured only by financial terms by looking at whether or not I have bought a wheel then you are behaving as an elitist gatekeeper and I would believe GT Sport and it's philosophy that racing is for everyone is the wrong game for you.

 

[RacingGrandpa]

This thread is so full of elitist bs. It runs me all the wrong way.
I too take the game serious, too serious at times.

What I don't do is put myself on a pedestal and think that I am somehow better than some one else.

Now, wheel elitists, don't come back to communicate here before you all invested hundreds of thousands of dollars in your rigs. Otherwise you really don't take this seriously.

 

[MaxAttack]

Oh, please - wheel plebians getting uppity again?

It just grinds my gears that I'm expected to play this game with stupid little children on their dinky toy controllers - I'm playing immersed in an electrically active gel, controlling the game via brain impulse and receiving force feedback thru direct electrical stimulation of the nervous system... Any other "pretend" way to play this game just shows you don't know sweet FA about cars going fast, kid.

My wife doesn't want anything to do with me and every time I say babe, I'm jumping in the gel for FIA she tears up and asks what happened to the man she married - and I tell her to do one and get dinner on like a REAL racer. Anyone who's making compromises based on their life situation that affect how much they can play a videogame is basically filth trash as a human and it's an insult I'm asked to share a track with them.

Honestly without the game being delivered direct to your optical nerve along with intravenous injections of powerful hallucinogenic drugs, I don't see how anyone could enjoy it at all, let alone claim to be serious about it or a good driver - lmao, my kids can't look me in the eye, and you think you're committed?

Absolutely morally reprehensible that after spending the entire science budget of a major nation on my simulation rig I'm still asked to play with dinky baby daffins on his little Fanatec and now all of a sudden they can actually go faster than me... Umm what?

 

[mirial]

I vowed I wouldnt return to comment, but this right here is why this is all wrong. By virtue of this statement you show yourself to be disparaging anyone who doesn't play the way you think is correct. I have monetary and housing constraints that realistically prevent me from investing in gear. By your reasoning I dont have the same interest in the game because I prefer to put a roof over my children's heads and food on their plate over investing $1k or more in a wheel setup. (This is a realistic cost, and on the cheap side where I live)

I take the game very seriously, work to improve my driving, car controls and my ability to adapt my driving to what the cars or track require. This is what good racing drivers do, adapt to get the best out of the car as it is. The teams do work to improve how the cars are set up, but when the race begins they have to get the best from what they've got.

I may not focus on maximizing my DR and practicing for hours for an FIA race, but I take my racing seriously and work very hard to improve and race better every time.

If you believe that my investment in the game is measured only by financial terms by looking at whether or not I have bought a wheel then you are behaving as an elitist gatekeeper and I would believe GT Sport and it's philosophy that racing is for everyone is the wrong game for you.

Maybe a bit disparaging because (provided you don't have a disibility) it's something that can be helped...I mean, a PS4 is considerably more expensive than a basic wheel and you could easily pick a used one up for double figures and just cobble something together using old furniture and bits of wood to get started. This is what I did before seats and rigs even existed, so it's a question of will.

You guys get so upset about something that can be helped. But that seems to be the trend amongst the GT community, most would rather struggle and languish in all the problems they are encountering than focus on improvement. And I've proven this in the past by trying to give tips to others where it either gets ignored or there's no interest.

 

[MaxAttack]

Maybe a bit disparaging because (provided you don't have a disibility) it's something that can be helped...I mean, a PS4 is considerably more expensive than a basic wheel and you could easily pick a used one up for double figures and just cobble something together using old furniture and bits of wood to get started. This is what I did before seats and rigs even existed, so it's a question of will.

You guys get so upset about something that can be helped. But that seems to be the trend amongst the GT community, most would rather struggle and languish in all the problems they are encountering than focus on improvement. And I've proven this in the past by trying to give tips to others where it either gets ignored or there's no interest.

Tip - if you've tried to give multiple people advice in the same kind of tone you write your posts in, your problem in not being well received is not the quality of your advice, it's your tone. Redneck said clearly he doesn't have the space for a wheel... I barely do, but then I don't have kids. If you're going to be snarky, at least do the courtesy of reading people's posts first.

I should fall back really though, since you do claim to have been racing since before the invention of the chair, which is pretty nuts numbers it must be said.

 

[mirial]

Tip - if you've tried to give multiple people advice in the same kind of tone you write your posts in, your problem in not being well received is not the quality of your advice, it's your tone. Redneck said clearly he doesn't have the space for a wheel... I barely do, but then I don't have kids. If you're going to be snarky, at least do the courtesy of reading people's posts first.

I should fall back really though, since you do claim to have been racing since before the invention of the chair, which is pretty nuts numbers it must be said.

Sometimes you have to more direct when dealing with technical issues otherwise things get confused. If remarks have got disparaging on here, then it's because topics and issues that have been raised have unexpectedly hit raw nerves which don't even undermine anybody barring a disability because almost everyone can improve and overcome problems with driving. It's a question of will again. I mean it's not just me, but the Wheel vs DS4 war is a lot more devisive and sensitive than I thought.

 

[MaxAttack]

Sometimes you have to more direct when dealing with technical issues otherwise things get confused. If remarks have got disparaging on here, then it's because topics and issues that have been raised have unexpectedly hit raw nerves which don't even undermine anybody barring a disability because almost everyone can improve and overcome problems with driving. It's a question of will again. I mean it's not just me, but the Wheel vs DS4 war is a lot more devisive and sensitive than I thought.

It's not "sensitive" at all, to be honest. I think the main problem is that your argument, resting on your "question of will" proposal, isn't that far removed from this one;



If you're not willing to take into account that everyone has a unique situation in their life and has their own unique motivation for playing the game and what they want out of it - and that this is exactly the playerbase PD wants to have - then you simply aren't having the same discussion as everyone else here.

 

[Kermit_2142]

Sometimes you have to more direct when dealing with technical issues otherwise things get confused. If remarks have got disparaging on here, then it's because topics and issues that have been raised have unexpectedly hit raw nerves which don't even undermine anybody barring a disability because almost everyone can improve and overcome problems with driving. It's a question of will again. I mean it's not just me, but the Wheel vs DS4 war is a lot more devisive and sensitive than I thought.

Coming from you who….is world tour fast but “can’t be bothered to get good because I don’t like the base car setups”

edit: where’s your will at??

 

[Redneckchef]

I can sound grumpy in my post, and there is a reason. The wheel brigade who keeps clamoring for a way to split the player base along a reasonably arbitrary line want to use financial investment instead of anything actually skill related. The general drift of the argument is that you dont want to race against me not because of my skill level, pace, racecraft or car choice. You dont want to race people like me because I havent spent as much money as you.

That
Is
Elitist
Gatekeeping.

Sure, I can do a lot of things and cut a lot of money to get a wheel. Currently a very old and used thrustmaster t80 is going for the very low price of $450 where I live. That is serious money when you have to budget tightly to ensure you provide for a family. That doesnt include anything else I need to make a set up.

I feel there are advantages and disadvantages to both inputs. But the DS4 loses out in most categories. I get killed in most heavy tire wear situations as I have little to no feedback to help manage what is going on. I still work my butt off pushing my skills to manage those things best I can. The fact you feel the time and energy I devote to develop my racing skills isn't good enough and unless I spend money I'm not worthy to race you speaks volumes. Money isnt the determing factor in whether I'm a good racer or not. It doesnt determine whether I am focused or serious enough. It determines how much money I've spent.

Get over it. Go play iRacing or ACC where you do get speed advantages by spending large for setups. Both of the main people arguing for wheel separatism claim to like GTS for pick up and play and full grids and frequent races. All of those go away if you divide by input.

I say again. GTS is based on the idea of racing for everyone. You don't agree with that even remotely so why are you playing the game?

 

[RacingGrandpa]

It's clear to me that you think that wheel gamers are better than pad gamers. If it's because the pad users are given help to be better by PD and you find that injust or if it's because you think that I and all the other pad users are unworthy to race you because we haven't spend enough money or we are inadequate as opposition because we lack the will to do things your prefer the way you prefer is unclear.
It is however clear that you feel your cult is more.worthy than everyone else.

I think you would fit better in iRacing.
But reality is you would probably not be faster there.

Now I have said mine and I choose to rise.above this discussion, It's in my opinion unworthy of my intellect
Goodday to you sirs.

 

[FrankieStail]

Strangely enough there’s plenty in iracing, acc and others not only using pad but use keyboard and are scary fast. While I enjoy using wheel in sim racing, I prefer to kickback with pad for flight sims and let me tell you the gatekeeping in flight sim community is much worse than the sim racing.

In saying that I take my flight simming as serious as sim racing but just choose a different way of enjoying each. But I respect that my horses for courses is different to others, each as valid as each other.

At the end of the day we’re just nerds enjoying our toys!
Peace and love

 

[kilesa4568]

I'd love a million pound simulator (and somewhere big enough to put it) but I'm stuck with my T300.

The person doing the controlling decides how good the controller is anyway.

 

[O604]

If you want to act elite, you should be on PC.

Remember this meme? Us dirty console peasants would really like it if you PC master race people stuck to PC if you think you're so great.

 

[mirial]

It's not "sensitive" at all, to be honest. I think the main problem is that your argument, resting on your "question of will" proposal, isn't that far removed from this one;



If you're not willing to take into account that everyone has a unique situation in their life and has their own unique motivation for playing the game and what they want out of it - and that this is exactly the playerbase PD wants to have - then you simply aren't having the same discussion as everyone else here.

Which is why I originally suggested for the diplomacy of not offending the player base by grouping sport mode into maybe 3 groups by making it progressively more difficult, with the elite group catering for maybe 50-100 players. I still don't know why there is this fixation with driving for everybody because even when they try to make things as equal as possible, you'll still get the status quo anyway.

Anyway, like most conversations on forums, this isn't going anywhere and only causing anger. I've raised some very valid points which doesn't even invite inquiry from allegedly intelligent people who are sufficiently into their favourite game.

I can sound grumpy in my post, and there is a reason. The wheel brigade who keeps clamoring for a way to split the player base along a reasonably arbitrary line want to use financial investment instead of anything actually skill related. The general drift of the argument is that you dont want to race against me not because of my skill level, pace, racecraft or car choice. You dont want to race people like me because I havent spent as much money as you.

That's just an assumption and I'd argue the wheel brigade wants the split because the brakes, stock settings, choice of car etc etc, very much has the DS4 user in mind and not the wheel user, and many wheel users, like me don't want to drive cars that drive straight on and refuse to slide simply because PD and the DS4 users want everyone all racing together. Heck, some even drive straight on when you max everything towards oversteer. This is stupid and I don't care for the separation of players based on the equipment we use, but on the conditions that everyone is forced to accept.

And as for a wheel, you could get something ok from the US or Europe for less than $100. There's nothing to stop you from asking around in the GT community for someone known who is selling something suitable.

To be fair, Sony has not helped as I've mentioned, goodness knows how many times now, that I don't think the DS4 is adequate for sim racing. It is ok and very versatile for a bit of craic on games like GTA etc. Even if everyone used a DS4, they would still be compromised anyway mostly because the sticks are far too short for precision and proper control. Sony or someone else could easily design a budget controller for sim racing that would be comparable to the average wheel.

BTW, my setup totals about 500 quid.

Get over it. Go play iRacing or ACC where you do get speed advantages by spending large for setups. Both of the main people arguing for wheel separatism claim to like GTS for pick up and play and full grids and frequent races. All of those go away if you divide by input.

I say again. GTS is based on the idea of racing for everyone. You don't agree with that even remotely so why are you playing the game?

I would, but to get started with something I'm not sure about I'd need to spend 2K to run the game to give it a proper chance for evaluation. ACC has hardly any numbers as far as I know and then there's an issue with the yaw speed relative to the pov which makes it tricky (PD has always had this right).

And I've not raced online for about two years.

Coming from you who….is world tour fast but “can’t be bothered to get good because I don’t like the base car setups”

edit: where’s your will at??

Using blunt tools is tiring having got so used to sharp tools and predicting what they can do.

And having got used to that, I'd far rather race for mid place positions in a split 3 or 4 with conditions I prefer than for higher placings in a higher split using games and tricks they have no resemblance to real driving. In previous GTs, if cars were well setup, they at least required similar skills to that of reality to be competitive. This is within the capability of GTS with just a few tweaks.

 

[Junkman55]

If I am understanding what is being said on this topic of Wheel and DS4, if you are a gamer you will win more if you are using a gaming controller then if you use a T300 or better wheel and pedal setup. If that is true maybe there should be one race for the gamers who spent and extra $500. For another controller just for the simulator side of GTS.

 

[Darla Starch]

If I am understanding what is being said on this topic of Wheel and DS4

Let's see....

If that is true maybe there should be one race for the gamers who spent and extra $500.

See below:

I vowed I wouldnt return to comment, but this right here is why this is all wrong. By virtue of this statement you show yourself to be disparaging anyone who doesn't play the way you think is correct. I have monetary and housing constraints that realistically prevent me from investing in gear. By your reasoning I dont have the same interest in the game because I prefer to put a roof over my children's heads and food on their plate over investing $1k or more in a wheel setup. (This is a realistic cost, and on the cheap side where I live)

I take the game very seriously, work to improve my driving, car controls and my ability to adapt my driving to what the cars or track require. This is what good racing drivers do, adapt to get the best out of the car as it is. The teams do work to improve how the cars are set up, but when the race begins they have to get the best from what they've got.

I may not focus on maximizing my DR and practicing for hours for an FIA race, but I take my racing seriously and work very hard to improve and race better every time.

If you believe that my investment in the game is measured only by financial terms by looking at whether or not I have bought a wheel then you are behaving as an elitist gatekeeper and I would believe GT Sport and it's philosophy that racing is for everyone is the wrong game for you.

 

[05XR8]

This read eerily familiar as top winning racing teams, that wouldn't want to low budget teams on the same grid. Just because a low budget team can't afford the best engineers, tools, parts, drivers, doesn't mean they share the same passion for whichever motorsport.
If I've got the passion to buy a racing game and enter any one race just as the next gamer, I will do so.
Maybe someone should make their own game, specifically for wheel users.

 

[CBH]

If I am understanding what is being said on this topic of Wheel and DS4, if you are a gamer you will win more if you are using a gaming controller then if you use a T300 or better wheel and pedal setup. If that is true maybe there should be one race for the gamers who spent and extra $500. For another controller just for the simulator side of GTS.

No.

 

[HaydenFan69]

Just buy the damn wheel already! And if you don’t find anymore speed out of it, sell it. They are going for retail prices on eBay right now so it’s not a losing proposition.

 

[Darla Starch]

Maybe someone should make their own game, specifically for wheel users.

Someone should purely so I can see how quickly this requirement gets a hacked-together workaround.

 

[afc5150]

Let's go a step further here. Separate the TC users from the no TC users. Separate the A/T players from the M/T players. Separate the cheap rig users from the expensive rig users. Separate the belt and gear driven wheel users from the direct drive users. Separate the glove wearing users from the bare hand users. Separate the load cell brake users from the pleb-y potentiometer users.

See how silly this all sounds?

 

[CBH]

Let's go a step further here. Separate the TC users from the no TC users. Separate the cheap rig users from the expensive rig users. Separate the belt and gear driven wheel users from the direct drive users. Separate the glove wearing users from the bare hand users. Separate the load cell brake users from the pleb-y potentiometer users.

See how silly this all sounds?

And also don't forget to separate Automatic from Manual users.

 

[kungtotte_]

Which is why I originally suggested for the diplomacy of not offending the player base by grouping sport mode into maybe 3 groups by making it progressively more difficult, with the elite group catering for maybe 50-100 players. I still don't know why there is this fixation with driving for everybody because even when they try to make things as equal as possible, you'll still get the status quo anyway.

Do you picture yourself as part of that elite group of 50-100 players with only 52K DR?

 

[Kermit_2142]

Imagine just how salty you lot will be if PD make a race D for tuning, and you lot still get whooped by someone using X and [] or even someone pretending to use the ds4 as a wheel with motion control 😂😂😂😂

 

[AlexWilmot]

Just buy the damn wheel already! And if you don’t find anymore speed out of it, sell it. They are going for retail prices on eBay right now so it’s not a losing proposition.

The thing is… he has a wheel

 

[Darla Starch]

The thing is… he has a wheel

And the best part?

Wheel elitism from a D-ranked driver...

 

[Pigems]

iRacing is the most “Sim” you can get as far as I know, and they let people play with a mouse and keyboard if wanted.

 

[mirial]

Do you picture yourself as part of that elite group of 50-100 players with only 52K DR?

Well I was in top splits for for the first few months.

 

[Samus]

If I am understanding what is being said on this topic

No. No you're not. Not once.