Gran Turismo Sport: General Discussion

[eran0004]

It will be interesting to follow the e-sports part of the game. The worldwide finals will have the fastest of the fastest of the fastest players, and being able to watch those races from spectator mode might even be one of my favourite new features.

It's actually not. It's located in the centre of the car, and the car model is invisible. It catches a lot of people out because it's really unintuitive.

Someone did a bunch of math with geometry and camera angles to prove it in GT6 once, but I forget where.

That would be me

The normal view is essentially a centered cockpit view, with the interior stripped away.

An actual bumper view camera would be difficult to use, as you'd be racing very close to the ground and have a poor overview of the track.

And having a camera at the very front of the car would lead to another issue: when getting close to another car in front of you, the other car would fill most of your screen, as it would be about a decimeter from the camera rather than perhaps a meter or two. So with that in mind it makes sense to have the camera a little further back.

Edit: For reference, a real life bumper camera.


Another example, racing bumper to bumper:

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

I don't drive. I did once drive an Escort XR3i Cabriolet on private grounds when I was 14-15 but I doubt that counts for much.

Whaaa ... why not drive ? or maybe you have a chauffeur doing it for you

 

[nowcontrol]

Whaaa ... why not drive ? or maybe you have a chauffeur doing it for you

No such costly luxury's for me sadly.....

I live in London and this or public transport is sufficient means to get from A to B.

The old Roof over my head vs Car to drive anywhere choice is a simple one if you want to live here on lowly wages.

 

[Speedster911]

It will be interesting to follow the e-sports part of the game. The worldwide finals will have the fastest of the fastest of the fastest players, and being able to watch those races from spectator mode might even be one of my favourite new features.



That would be me

The normal view is essentially a centered cockpit view, with the interior stripped away.

An actual bumper view camera would be difficult to use, as you'd be racing very close to the ground and have a poor overview of the track.

And having a camera at the very front of the car would lead to another issue: when getting close to another car in front of you, the other car would fill most of your screen, as it would be about a decimeter from the camera rather than perhaps a meter or two. So with that in mind it makes sense to have the camera a little further back.

Edit: For reference, a real life bumper camera.


Another example, racing bumper to bumper:

I'm glad this is being actively discussed. There are hardly any racing games on consoles today with a proper (PROPER) bumper cam that's practically hugging the tarmac. I remember using the bumper view only back in my PC simming days as those angles used to sit on the bumper and made for some very exciting racing, superb sense of speed, amidst limited visibility. However, once you know the track, you can take corners like a pro using the true bumper cam.

GT and Forza have used a pseudo bumper cam view all along: a view with the hood or cockpit removed. You get good visibility but then it feels like you're hovering higher over the track than you should. All cars will use the same height so in Forza i.e. when you drive the Mclaren F1 using the hood view, it looks nice and low. When you shift to the bumper cam, it actually sits higher. Some cars feel like you're driving a mini-truck because the camera placement is not on the bumper itself but deliberately altered to make driving easier.

The fact that cars would block almost the entire screen is a non-issue; you're not going to be driving right behind them the entire time. If anything, you'll be looking for overtaking opportunities, trying to sneak past them on every straight and turn, with a fair amount of slip-streaming I imagine. Still, if you know the track, it is a non-issue.

I wish GT and Forza would bring back the pure bumper cam to give you that thrill, sense of danger and over the edge feeling that comes with driving from that view. Would do wonders for improving sense of speed and both games need that.

Would be nice to have two bumper cam views like we have two for chase.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

We need front grille cam in games, now

 

[eran0004]

I'm glad this is being actively discussed. There are hardly any racing games on consoles today with a proper (PROPER) bumper cam that's practically hugging the tarmac. I remember using the bumper view only back in my PC simming days as those angles used to sit on the bumper and made for some very exciting racing, superb sense of speed, amidst limited visibility. However, once you know the track, you can take corners like a pro using the true bumper cam.

GT and Forza have used a pseudo bumper cam view all along: a view with the hood or cockpit removed. You get good visibility but then it feels like you're hovering higher over the track than you should. All cars will use the same height so in Forza i.e. when you drive the Mclaren F1 using the hood view, it looks nice and low. When you shift to the bumper cam, it actually sits higher. Some cars feel like you're driving a mini-truck because the camera placement is not on the bumper itself but deliberately altered to make driving easier.

The fact that cars would block almost the entire screen is a non-issue; you're not going to be driving right behind them the entire time. If anything, you'll be looking for overtaking opportunities, trying to sneak past them on every straight and turn, with a fair amount of slip-streaming I imagine. Still, if you know the track, it is a non-issue.

I wish GT and Forza would bring back the pure bumper cam to give you that thrill, sense of danger and over the edge feeling that comes with driving from that view. Would do wonders for improving sense of speed and both games need that.

Would be nice to have two bumper cam views like we have two for chase.

I can't say for Forza, but in Gran Turismo the height of the normal view camera is at the height of the driver's head, which is different for different cars.

Having other cars blocking the entire view is not a non-issue, as in a race situation you'll often be at bumper to bumper with another car. Seeing absolutely nothing of the track in those situations is a big disadvantage. Look at the second video in my post, racing with that view would be impossible, no matter how well you know the track.

A bumper cam would be good for replays and spectator mode, but it would not be well suited for driving.

 

[7HO]

Don't you mean what you are seeing?

I'm not the only one, I didn't post that clip for example.

Yes, you told me that you're not basing it on information from the manufacturer, you're just making your assumptions up whole cloth. That sure is an improvement.

Actually you are saying that even though I detailed what I am basing it on.

It's actually not. It's located in the centre of the car, and the car model is invisible. It catches a lot of people out because it's really unintuitive.

Someone did a bunch of math with geometry and camera angles to prove it in GT6 once, but I forget where.

You do realise that you responded to the quote and not me?

You forget a point about the Bugatti Video, you judge the physic from the cockpit view, and we all know that the wheel is not reproduced at 1:1, that s why you ll find some weird behavior as watcher. And from what i saw, the driver is a beginner, so it s evident he s not smooth on the turn driving, and turned so much in these sections
It s not rocket science

That doesn't weaken the point, it only strengthens it.

 

[Griffith500]

As I feared, the pretence is strong surrounding this game. It's what ruined "Wreckfest", unbelievably - no we can't have a reincarnated Destruction Derby we need another GTR clone, because pretence.

 

[jm79]

No such costly luxury's for me sadly.....

I live in London and this or public transport is sufficient means to get from A to B.

The old Roof over my head vs Car to drive anywhere choice is a simple one if you want to live here on lowly wages.

Amen to that brother. London is not the place to be owning a car unless you're an oligarch.

Also, @7HO your posts are so long it makes my eyes tired You may be right about physics, but just personally, I'm inclined to sway towards the impressions of people who've played it, because to paraphrase @nasanu , you can watch YouTube or vid replays til you're blue in the face, but perhaps playing it might give you a different impression. I don't think anyone disagrees with you, per se, it's more that you seem to be completely dismissing it already. Which seems a tad harsh.

Also, as an aside, the Nurb looks better and better each time I see it.

 

[Zlork]

You can't judge physics via video.

I don't speak only for GTS but also for all other sims.

Also, as an aside, the Nurb looks better and better each time I see it.

Yeah

 

[Tassie_tiger]

No, not sarcastic. Boost is for online racing against other humans, rubber banding is built into the AI offline. Boost make you, as the car behind, much faster, with higher grip and straightline speed whereas rubber banding both speeds up the AI when they are behind and slows them down while they are in front. Your own car physics don't change like they do with boost. End result is somewhat similar but with a different path to get there.

I've done the odd race with Boost on GT6.
Not much granted, but we did use it a few times for a bit of fun.
From memory, Boost also tends to slow down the front drivers as well while the back runners are catching up.
I recall a few moans and groans from the front guys as I was catching up after recovering from a spin.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Anyone notice there was no tire selection screen in that Bugatti video?

 

[Tassie_tiger]

It's there, but he scrolls straight through it.
He's on Racing Hards.

 

[Mike_grpA]

It's there, but he scrolls straight through it.
He's on Racing Hards.

Wait, that's racing hards? How much grip do softs have then?

 

[McLaren]

You can't judge physics via video.

I don't speak only for GTS but also for all other sims.

So, if I'm watching a video & notice a car behaving unnaturally, I'm can't judge the physics based on what I'm seeing to some degree?

 

[PJivan]

Is this single player versus online LAN? I suggested earlier if there are graphical differences between the two modes currently to ensure a more stable race for the online stream? Maybe?

LAN is Local area Network... I don't believe the game will support it

 

[Speedster911]

I can't say for Forza, but in Gran Turismo the height of the normal view camera is at the height of the driver's head, which is different for different cars.

Having other cars blocking the entire view is not a non-issue, as in a race situation you'll often be at bumper to bumper with another car. Seeing absolutely nothing of the track in those situations is a big disadvantage. Look at the second video in my post, racing with that view would be impossible, no matter how well you know the track.

A bumper cam would be good for replays and spectator mode, but it would not be well suited for driving.

I see...

Change to hood or cockpit view. Solved. 👍

 

[eran0004]

I see...

Change to hood or cockpit view. Solved. 👍

Or keep the normal view as it is, since there is nothing wrong with it.

 

[7HO]

but just personally, I'm inclined to sway towards the impressions of people who've played it,

Would you be inclined to believe a fan who says something positive or a critical impression from someone who played it such as the one I linked and quoted? Just curious because on this board you can find positive impressions obviously but go elsewhere and you can find not so positive impressions like the one I linked and quoted.

 

[Famine]

LAN is Local area Network... I don't believe the game will support it

It technically does - it's what we've been doing in GT5/6 for years.

The consoles must be online in order to establish and maintain a connection to PSN to access online features, and the matchmaking and lobby creation is online, but after that all in-game inter-console communication is peer-to-peer by shortest route - in this case operating as a local network.

@Laffinassasin used the term "online LAN" to describe it. It's fairly appropriate.

 

[Tassie_tiger]

Would you be inclined to believe a fan who says something positive or a critical impression from someone who played it such as the one I linked and quoted? Just curious because on this board you can find positive impressions obviously but go elsewhere and you can find not so positive impressions like the one I linked and quoted.

On this board you also find very negative impressions.
Including those that have and those that haven't played it.
Actually, not so much from those that have played it.

What makes you think that those that have played it and given positive responses are simply 'fans' with an agenda?
Or do you dismiss those because it doesn't align with your impressions from YouTube clips?

 

[TS050]

This is the second time where reading the last few pages has made my brain hurt.

 

[7HO]

On this board you also find very negative impressions.
Including those that have and those that haven't played it.
Actually, not so much from those that have played it.

What makes you think that those that have played it and given positive responses are simply 'fans' with an agenda?
Or do you dismiss those because it doesn't align with your impressions from YouTube clips?

Generally I will dismiss non critical praise and absolute criticism. Not always but it is rare for something to be absolutely bad or good so if an impression isn't balanced it is more likely to be biased an unreliable. Generally I will consult multiple sources and make up my mind, this can also lead to a change of heart as more evidence is presented. If critical review matches up with other evidence that can be reviewed such as video and sound that strengthens the likelihood of it being correct.

Now knowing that the original broadcast races were part of the live broadcast service I initially wasn't critical of things like the pivoting of cars and more looked for events as I watched it live. At first I thought it looked good but later on review I started to question my initial impressions especially as I watched more videos. Unfortunately the more footage I see the more disappointed I have become and trust me when I say I am a fan of what PD are trying to do here and I want this to be good, this is a big let down for me at this point.

So when I read overwhelming positive comments that include things that are easily questionable from the evidence available or when people offering praise attack critical comments but then are unable to debate logically I am forced to consider those things when I weigh their comments and question their credibility. If other comments match what I am seeing that doesn't mean they are right but it is more likely.

I should also say the response you replied to was mainly to point out there are both positive and negative reviews due to his initial response inclining me to think he might be saying he is more likely to believe the positive review of someone who has played it than the non experienced arguments I am making. I just wanted to point out that there are experienced comments that are not so positive also.

 

[Jakedog23]

Edit: Deleted

 

[dr_slump]

It technically does - it's what we've been doing in GT5/6 for years.

The consoles must be online in order to establish and maintain a connection to PSN to access online features, and the matchmaking and lobby creation is online, but after that all in-game inter-console communication is peer-to-peer by shortest route - in this case operating as a local network.

By definition that's not a LAN.
LAN doesn't even require you to use peer-to-peer, don't know where you got that from.

Anyway, you're right in case of GT5 and GT6 supporting LAN, because those games do actually have a dedicated LAN mode. However, they decided to hide it by default.

 

[Famine]

By definition that's not a LAN.
LAN doesn't even require you to use peer-to-peer, don't know where you got that from.

Anyway, you're right in case of GT5 and GT6 supporting LAN, because those games do actually have a dedicated LAN mode. However, they decided to hide it by default.

I didn't say any of those things. Read it again.

 

[Tassie_tiger]

Generally I will dismiss non critical praise and absolute criticism. Not always but it is rare for something to be absolutely bad or good so if an impression isn't balanced it is more likely to be biased an unreliable. Generally I will consult multiple sources and make up my mind, this can also lead to a change of heart as more evidence is presented. If critical review matches up with other evidence that can be reviewed such as video and sound that strengthens the likelihood of it being correct.

Now knowing that the original broadcast races were part of the live broadcast service I initially wasn't critical of things like the pivoting of cars and more looked for events as I watched it live. At first I thought it looked good but later on review I started to question my initial impressions especially as I watched more videos. Unfortunately the more footage I see the more disappointed I have become and trust me when I say I am a fan of what PD are trying to do here and I want this to be good, this is a big let down for me at this point.

So when I read overwhelming positive comments that include things that are easily questionable from the evidence available or when people offering praise attack critical comments but then are unable to debate logically I am forced to consider those things when I weigh their comments and question their credibility. If other comments match what I am seeing that doesn't men they are right but it is more likely.

That's all well and good.
And I accept your approach.

But the ultimate source to 'make up your mind' is by playing the game.
Anything other than that is pure presumption.

If you haven't played it, even if it's an early build readied for public consumption, far too many assumptions need to be made.
Relying on those assumptions being correct is bad practise.

Let's not jump to early conclusions.
And let's not accuse those that have played it and given positive feedback as having bias towards the game and therefore their accounts aren't worthy.

At the end of the day we will all be given the opportunity to play the game.
And at that point we can all give criticism on the points we don't like.

Creating criticism when we haven't even played it, no matter what any of us deem as conclusive proof, is questionable at best.

 

[dr_slump]

I didn't say any of those things. Read it again.

You said "operating as a local network", which is wrong.

At the same time your conclusion was based on the peer-to-peer fact, which is pointless, because it has nothing to do with being a local network.

 

[Famine]

You said "operating as a local network", which is wrong.

I did indeed - because it isn't. As all of the in-game information exchanged between consoles occurs entirely within the confines of the local area network - consoles, patch cables and switch - it behaves AS a local area network.

I didn't say it IS one (it isn't - it requires an external internet connection to keep the lobby open and the players visible to one another), I didn't say LAN requires P2P and I didn't say anything about GT5 and GT6 having dedicated LAN modes.

"Online LAN", as @Laffinassasin phrased it, is an wholly appropriate term for how GT5, GT6 and, so far, GTS can operate a local lobby.

 

[7HO]

That's all well and good.
And I accept your approach.

But the ultimate source to 'make up your mind' is by playing the game.
Anything other than that is pure presumption.

If you haven't played it, even if it's an early build readied for public consumption, far too many assumptions need to be made.
Relying on those assumptions being correct is bad practise.

Let's not jump to early conclusions.
And let's not accuse those that have played it and given positive feedback as having bias towards the game and therefore their accounts aren't worthy.

At the end of the day we will all be given the opportunity to play the game.
At that point we can all give critisism on the points we don't like.

Some people will just buy it. Some will have an opportunity to try it. The rest of us will make up our mind based on what we see and read. As with most games there will be positive and negative reviews to read and we will need to sift through those and determine our impressions from those. As you can see on these boards there are plenty of people who have been burned enough that they have no faith at all and just a feature they want missing is enough to say "enough PD wont get my money". I really want this to be good but I'm not going to support it unless it is. PD are going to need to show me something much better. I'm fine with the features what I am not seeing is something that matches the authenticity Graham Stoker spoke of and now I'm even doubting that the service can provide a credible racing championship. This game has a lot of potential and I want to see it reach that potential.