Gran Turismo Sport: General Discussion

[jm79]

It's from Kaz's presentation during the Japan reveal.

No way, totally missed that then... This kind of validates his quote eh.
I'm more positive about this now.

 

[BrainsBush]

If this is already covered then my apologies for re-asking...

In all video footage of the races the HUD has three displays. Why do the displays show the same identical information? E.g. speed on disp 1&2, transmission on 2&3, and also speed on display 1 is both analog and digital.

Can you select out of these displays or is it fixed? Are they showing all displays on the same screen just for demo purposes (hopefully).

 

[Aussie_HSV]

No way, totally missed that then... This kind of validates his quote eh.
I'm more positive about this now.

Well, I guess it's something in it's favour.
Of course, someone will come along and say it's just a place-holder and therefore should be totally disregarded.

Anyway, here's the clip from Japan if you want to take a look.

 

[jm79]

Well, I guess it's something in it's favour.
Of course, someone will come along and say it's just a place-holder and therefore should be totally disregarded.

Anyway, here's the clip from Japan if you want to take a look.

Thanks for the link man

Also that next segment, with the plain white toyota just ready for a bloody good livery-ing, got me all excited

 

[sircarltonlotus]

Personally I can't believe these numbers at present. Kaz and PD didn't tell the western world about this. All that was said in the U.S and European reveals about DLC was firstly, there was going to be DLC, and secondly, they are already preparing it to be added once the game releases.
I'm just hopeful now that it's looking like a much better possibility that additional classes are added. I'd think if that does happen we will see a mix of brand new machines and cars we've seen in GT6 within the same DLC packs. Having said that I have no idea if it'd be feasible to add 30 cars in just one pack. Can't wait to hear more about this to be honest.

 

[Marron]

Perhaps this 'news' makes this image more understandable.

256 cars seemed odd at the time.
Maybe not so odd after all.

I it looks on the number in the garage. Or the sum of the buy cars ...

 

[chrisspeed281]

I'm sure they will not stop to upgrade premium cars to super-premium cars because they also can use them for the next game after GT Sport

 

[Samus]

PD do not build 3d cars one by one, they build them all concurrently ( the only sensible way to do it )

How do you know that? If they still do the one man one car thing I don't see how it's sensible to let them start one, get it 70% done and then start on another one. Neither are ready until they're 100% done which is going to take the same time.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

How do you know that? If they still do the one man one car thing I don't see how it's sensible to let them start one, get it 70% done and then start on another one. Neither are ready until they're 100% done which is going to take the same time.

That's how proper resources management works in IT field, if you have to wait one car to finish to start another, that would be ( insert suitable words here ).

Each car build starts from data gathering, that could be from CAD data, 3D scanning, photos, lots of photos, this process alone could take long time, so it's best done first for all cars ( sending crews around the globe, scanning cars, taking pics, recording the sounds too ) if possible. Doing this process alone one by one, by one man is insane task. After this, the actual 3d modelling takes place at the office, and one man may do everything on one car, from lights, interior, wheels, hood, windows, body etc, but if he needs 6 months to finish one, a sane manager would allow 5 or more people to help share the load, so it can be done in 30 days for example.

One man one car statement ? Who said that ? One man could have more than one car under his workload, it's called sharing workload for efficiency. I don't think PD is that stupid to get one man to do one car from start to finish, and not allowing him to do anything else in the process, that would waste time, a lot of time even in PS3 days.

Modern 3d model project management with lots of cars to build in a time frame would require the most efficient way of using resources, that means concurrent building process shared among the modelers ( each modeler still can be assigned with unique cars of their own that will be their responsibility ), allowing the manager to prioritize certain cars to be finished first while still allowing other cars to be worked on on slower pace. It's common sense IMO.

Have anyone checked how many PD employees now ? There's the Tokyo office, LA office and another one in Europe, the Tokyo office has about 100+ ?

 

[Aussie_HSV]

I it looks on the number in the garage. Or the sum of the buy cars ...

For Gran Turismo it usually represents the number of cars in your garage.
That would mean almost 2 cars of every one of the 140 available.
Which in some way could make sense, if it's possible to own the 'stock' version along with the 'Gr.' version of each car.

Or, there were more than 140 cars available to Kaz as per the latest 'news'.

Or, of course, it's a random number added to that 'Car' section for the presentation image.
But it's a little odd when other numbers shown are all more than realistic, and it was announced and well known that only 140 cars will be in the game.
So why put in a number that goes well beyond that limit?

The interpretation of what you think is more probable is up to you.

 

[Johnnypenso]

That's how proper resources management works in IT field, if you have to wait one car to finish to start another, that would be ( insert suitable words here ).

Each car build starts from data gathering, that could be from CAD data, 3D scanning, photos, lots of photos, this process alone could take long time, so it's best done first for all cars ( sending crews around the globe, scanning cars, taking pics, recording the sounds too ) if possible. Doing this process alone one by one, by one man is insane task. After this, the actual 3d modelling takes place at the office, and one man may do everything on one car, from lights, interior, wheels, hood, windows, body etc, but if he needs 6 months to finish one, a sane manager would allow 5 or more people to help share the load, so it can be done in 30 days for example.

One man one car statement ? Who said that ? One man could have more than one car under his workload, it's called sharing workload for efficiency. I don't think PD is that stupid to get one man to do one car from start to finish, and not allowing him to do anything else in the process, that would waste time, a lot of time even in PS3 days.

Modern 3d model project management with lots of cars to build in a time frame would require the most efficient way of using resources, that means concurrent building process shared among the modelers ( each modeler still can be assigned with unique cars of their own that will be their responsibility ), allowing the manager to prioritize certain cars to be finished first while still allowing other cars to be worked on on slower pace. It's common sense IMO.

Have anyone checked how many PD employees now ? There's the Tokyo office, LA office and another one in Europe, the Tokyo office has about 100+ ?

Once the modeling process beings in studio, how do you know it's more efficient for more than one person to work on one car? Where do these efficiency gains come from? Completing a single car faster isn't a measure of efficiency, it's total output/time that measures efficiency. How do they increase their output/time by having more than one modeler working on one car?

Don't remember the source but the last figure I saw for PD was 200. It came from Kaz IIRC.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Once the modeling process beings in studio, how do you know it's more efficient for more than one person to work on one car? Where do these efficiency gains come from? Completing a single car faster isn't a measure of efficiency, it's total output/time that measures efficiency. How do they increase their output/time by having more than one modeler working on one car?

Don't remember the source but the last figure I saw for PD was 200. It came from Kaz IIRC.

Efficiency can be had in many ways, if one modeler doing a Supra MKIV, and he's not good doing the lights, but much faster doing the simple body shapes like bonnet or hood or wheels, he can get other modelers who specializes in light cluster to do it faster. The efficient way to get the 140 cars done early is to assign more modelers to do these 140 cars as quick as possible. Anyway, what I meant was having 5-10 modellers to do each car is much faster if the load is prioritized on certain group of cars, like the 140 cars for release. Say, PD have 100 modelers, 70 of them do 7 cars that can be done in 3 weeks, the other 30 do other cars not in 140 group, each 5 on 1 car from GT5/6 ( 3 weeks per car target ) which already have the photos, scanning, master data completed ( low polygon models for PS3 ) - which I assume would be quicker than doing a brand new car that never been made. 14 cars per month, for 3 years, 140 prioritized would be done in about a year, leaving close to 2/3 years doing the 260-360 cars ( 10-20 cars per month ) - just my rough calculation. I think I saw PD use Maya, and GT5/6 premium would not likely take the same time as ground up build. I'm not good in explaining this stuff in details, it's all just what I would do if I'm managing a group of modelers doing cars within time frame.

Maybe someone like @Griffith500 can chime in on how modelers share workload ?

 

[azeeza]

There could be any number of reasons for having to remodel the cars to super premium really or it could just be a case of 'must have best quality cars EVER!' reasoning from PD.

Anyway I would be reasonably surprised if we had to pay for the reworked GT6 premiums, although they could package them with paid DLC as a sly way of doing so - maybe a 3 or 4 new to series car pack that has 6 or 7 reworked premiums included 'free'...at an inflated price. Dang it! Must stop giving PD ideas.

Full damage

 

[Samus]

Efficiency can be had in many ways, if one modeler doing a Supra MKIV, and he's not good doing the lights, but much faster doing the simple body shapes like bonnet or hood or wheels, he can get other modelers who specializes in light cluster to do it faster. The efficient way to get the 140 cars done early is to assign more modelers to do these 140 cars as quick as possible. Anyway, what I meant was having 5-10 modellers to do each car is much faster if the load is prioritized on certain group of cars, like the 140 cars for release. Say, PD have 100 modelers, 70 of them do 7 cars that can be done in 3 weeks, the other 30 do other cars not in 140 group, each 5 on 1 car from GT5/6 ( 3 weeks per car target ) which already have the photos, scanning, master data completed ( low polygon models for PS3 ) - which I assume would be quicker than doing a brand new car that never been made. 14 cars per month, for 3 years, 140 prioritized would be done in about a year, leaving close to 2/3 years doing the 260-360 cars ( 10-20 cars per month ) - just my rough calculation. I think I saw PD use Maya, and GT5/6 premium would not likely take the same time as ground up build. I'm not good in explaining this stuff in details, it's all just what I would do if I'm managing a group of modelers doing cars within time frame.

Maybe someone like @Griffith500 can chime in on how modelers share workload ?

I'm sure it's been reiterated more recently but I can't find it yet

https://www.gtplanet.net/new-track-vision-gt-x2014-discussed-at-taipei-game-show/

One particularly interesting thing revealed in the discussion is Polyphony Digital’s “one person, one car” policy. As the name implies, each car model in Gran Turismo is built from top-to-bottom by a single person, to promote the Japanese concept of “shokunin” – a master craftsman or artisan.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

I'm sure it's been reiterated more recently but I can't find it yet

https://www.gtplanet.net/new-track-vision-gt-x2014-discussed-at-taipei-game-show/

Back in the 90's I may believe that shokunin practice during Japan economy bubble, but these days, it may be just marketing speak. Anime industry for example have been changing a lot in Japan since early 2000's.

 

[Samus]

Back in the 90's I may believe that shokunin practice during Japan economy bubble, but these days, it may be just marketing speak. Anime industry for example have been changing a lot in Japan since early 2000's.

That wouldn't be "marketing", that would be flat out lying.

Yes Japan is changing and despite what some people (not you) claim outsourcing is not frowned upon in Japanese culture, it's very common, yet we know PD don't do that either (to date). They seem very set in their ways.

 

[Tornado]

And PD probably hasn't been worried about manpower costs anyway like your typical anime distributor has since the millennium.

 

[Marron]

For Gran Turismo it usually represents the number of cars in your garage.
That would mean almost 2 cars of every one of the 140 available.
Which in some way could make sense, if it's possible to own the 'stock' version along with the 'Gr.' version of each car.

Or, there were more than 140 cars available to Kaz as per the latest 'news'.

Or, of course, it's a random number added to that 'Car' section for the presentation image.
But it's a little odd when other numbers shown are all more than realistic, and it was announced and well known that only 140 cars will be in the game.
So why put in a number that goes well beyond that limit?

The interpretation of what you think is more probable is up to you.

I reason to own plurality of car, I think there are several. For example Scapes photography using multiple Livery or all the colors of the road car,.
If simple to input the "provisional data".

 

[SlipZtrEm]

People are underestimating PD so much in terms of 3D models outputs, the cars requires progress to make, who knows PD already have the rest of the cars - 260 to 360 cars in 50% to 75% state of completion, they may just need interiors or some parts like lights ( which are detailed/took longer to model ) Kaz may prioritize cars that are going to be needed for GT Sport mode, hence 140 cars from the start, these are the cars required for GT Sport mode competition to run. So, not holding back content, but strategic decision to output necessary models in timely manner.

I'm not underestimating at all, I'm going by the historical speed at which PD has produced Premium models or these so-called "Super Premiums". GT5 launched with slightly less than 250, and built upon that with DLC. GT6 added around 150 — closer to 100 considering duplicates — with a few dozen more post-release. That was in three years. GT Sport will arrive two weeks shy of three years after GT6, with 140 cars.

Releasing a game with 140 cars, while 260-360 sit partially complete, isn't efficient. I'm not saying Polyphony shouldn't be working on post-release content at all by now, because we're only three months away from the game going gold at the latest, but that ratio is all off, IMO. It's a long-perpetuated myth that multi-tasking is more efficient.

Am I correct in saying that the majority of the 140 cars included at launch are new models not seen previously? At least many are, and the VGT's for the most part have had full interiors that had to be created.
Presumably this is more time consuming than remodeling the existing GT6 premiums - I'm sure the base data would be usable at least. If most of the additional cars are remodeled GT6 premiums then the turnaround on those may be much quicker. I more think about it, the more I think the scenario I mentioned earlier could pan out - DLC car packs with a mix of new cars and reworked GT6 models with the 'old cars' being supposedly free.
Also another idea I put forward earlier is it could be possible that certain cars won't be usable in Sport mode with only bop'ed cars available for that and the rest for Arcade mode and any possible additional offline modes. A more traditional GT could be had with 500 cars.

Slightly less than half of the cars revealed so far were found in GT6, yeah (I counted 35). I'm just going by what Kazunori has stated — that every GTS car has been rebuilt from the ground up — but I too believe the PS3 era models were more than acceptable, so hopefully what you've suggested is true: that it'd be quicker to remodel based on the existing info than start completely from scratch. But that brings up another issue: if working off a PS3-era base is quicker, why would we still see 140 cars after three years? That'd lead me to think the "Super Premiums" are actually taking longer than the oft-quoted six man-months.

Yeah, packaging old and new together would make sense. I hope they get the ratios right though: FM5 was a great example of how not to do that! As for including cars that aren't eligible in Sport Mode: while possible, I personally think it'd undermine the whole point of the game, since the eSports push has been Polyphony's main goal.

These are all very negative conclusions bro. Why is that?

Can you not foresee an eventuality that will be a positive thing? I mean, purely for balance.

edit: I mean, the linked article is balanced, no offence meant. It's just that, personally, I see the 140 cars at launch, and then a steady stream of DLC and generally good post-launch support as a really good thing. I would love that.

And also, @Ridox2JZGTE hits the nail on the head, I think...

How are either "the team has gotten massively more efficient at modelling cars" or "they've resorted to outsourcing" negative? I'm being rational, using the information given to reach a conclusion. Kazunori claims the goal is up to 360 cars added in post-launch. There are only a few ways that sort of number is possible in anything approaching a reasonable amount of time. Either of those options, or using touched-up PS3 assets.

I too would love the sounds of a solid post-launch support plan. I've said on numerous occasions that if it were a good one, I would have no qualms about PD charging money for it either, unlike those that believe all post-launch content should be free. But charging for seemingly-recycled last-gen assets — if that were to happen — wouldn't sit well with me. It didn't when T10 did it in 2013, and there were similar claims back then: that everything was "rebuilt from the ground up". FH2 got better, with a mix of old and new like what @Nato_777 suggested. FM6's post-launch support was/is fantastic IMO, since it's been almost entirely new-to-franchise models.

Of course, you seem to have an issue with being able to separate criticism from dislike:

I wonder if I'll also turn into a GT-hater when I buy Assetto Corsa...

 

[Johnnypenso]

Efficiency can be had in many ways, if one modeler doing a Supra MKIV, and he's not good doing the lights, but much faster doing the simple body shapes like bonnet or hood or wheels, he can get other modelers who specializes in light cluster to do it faster. The efficient way to get the 140 cars done early is to assign more modelers to do these 140 cars as quick as possible. Anyway, what I meant was having 5-10 modellers to do each car is much faster if the load is prioritized on certain group of cars, like the 140 cars for release. Say, PD have 100 modelers, 70 of them do 7 cars that can be done in 3 weeks, the other 30 do other cars not in 140 group, each 5 on 1 car from GT5/6 ( 3 weeks per car target ) which already have the photos, scanning, master data completed ( low polygon models for PS3 ) - which I assume would be quicker than doing a brand new car that never been made. 14 cars per month, for 3 years, 140 prioritized would be done in about a year, leaving close to 2/3 years doing the 260-360 cars ( 10-20 cars per month ) - just my rough calculation. I think I saw PD use Maya, and GT5/6 premium would not likely take the same time as ground up build. I'm not good in explaining this stuff in details, it's all just what I would do if I'm managing a group of modelers doing cars within time frame.

Maybe someone like @Griffith500 can chime in on how modelers share workload ?

I think you're conflating faster production with efficiency. Putting 5-10 modelers on each car makes the individual car get faster, it can make a target group of cars get done faster, but doesn't change the total output/time equation unless there are actual production efficiencies involved. It may well be more inefficient to have more than one person working on a car because an individual modeler will be more dependent on the work of others to proceed with their own work and some additional coordination between modelers will be necessary that won't otherwise be needed for a modeler working alone. Add to this the fact that everything is done in house and many of the modelers working for PD have many, many years of experience, they likely are quite proficient at this point in all aspects of modeling, having built a great number of premium cars over the previous 12 years or so. They are also likely sharing their modeling techniques in a cooperative environment already.

 

[Samus]

I think you're conflating faster production with efficiency. Putting 5-10 modelers on each car makes the individual car get faster, it can make a target group of cars get done faster, but doesn't change the total output/time equation unless there are actual production efficiencies involved. It may well be more inefficient to have more than one person working on a car because an individual modeler will be more dependent on the work of others to proceed with their own work and some additional coordination between modelers will be necessary that won't otherwise be needed for a modeler working alone. Add to this the fact that everything is done in house and many of the modelers working for PD have many, many years of experience, they likely are quite proficient at this point in all aspects of modeling, having built a great number of premium cars over the previous 12 years or so. They are also likely sharing their modeling techniques in a cooperative environment already.

Indeed and remember, it still says on the website that each car takes 6 man-hour months.

In recent years, CAD data of actual cars are often provided to Gran Turismo thanks to our strong partnerships with automotive manufacturers and as a consequence, the time to understand the design of the car has been drastically reduced. The same cannot be said for the development time: a model will still take 6 months to create, and that is because the time and costs saved in the research phase are re-distributed into modelling to further improve the quality of the final product.

If you think in terms of short-time development costs, this style taken by Gran Turismo may sound inefficient. But the passion and professionalism of each members of the modelling team further strengthen the trust with auto manufacturers, and that is what ultimately leads to increased collaborations with them. Gran Turismo has evolved into a project involving the auto industry, going beyond the boundaries of a simple video game.

 

[jm79]

Of course, you seem to have an issue with being able to separate criticism from dislike:

Aaaaaaaaaaah come on buddy, was said in jest! I've pre-ordered AC - love all dem car games!

Also, agreed with @Ridox2JZGTE - would be interesting to hear @Griffith500 's take on this...

 

[Heavyduke]

Indeed and remember, it still says on the website that each car takes 6 man-hour months.

Now the modeling issues bother me, they use one person each car. To make 400 cars a year you would need 400 people wouldn't you?

(Streaming on twitch! My channel is Theheavyduke)

 

[sumbrownkid]

Sometimes I think how would the Fox Engine work with Gran Turismo, considering the Fox Engine is more or less just taking highly detailed photographs and then rendering them. It's one of the reasons why MGSV was modeled quickly compared to past MGS titles.

 

[Heavyduke]

Sometimes I think how would the Fox Engine work with Gran Turismo, considering the Fox Engine is more or less just taking highly detailed photographs and then rendering them. It's one of the reasons why MGSV was modeled quickly compared to past MGS titles.

I guess better trees, highly detailed cars - railings - tracks.

 

[sumbrownkid]

I guess better trees, highly detailed cars - railings - tracks.

And perhaps the driver models too, and if Ps4 permits, the spectators and pit crews.

 

[AKps3]

Now the modeling issues bother me, they use one person each car. To make 400 cars a year you would need 400 people wouldn't you?

(Streaming on twitch! My channel is Theheavyduke)

200 people and PD now have over 200 overall

 

[SlipZtrEm]

200 people and PD now have over 200

PD is over 200 total. Not 200 modelers.

 

[Heavyduke]

And perhaps the driver models too, and if Ps4 permits, the spectators and pit crews.

If F1 2016 have pit crews it will work. Same with the last gen Gran turismos. They had pit crews (kinda)

 

[AKps3]

PD is over 200 total. Not 200 modelers.

I know
They also have students. What are they doing?