GT and Microtransactions

[MasterGT]

"Be careful what you ask for because you just might get it."

Lots of people wanted downloadable content and, now, it looks as if you're going to get it.
If these pricing rumours are true, I can't think of anyone who thought it would be quite like this.

Cheers,

MasterGT

 

[The Vanishing Boy]

you start with a complete package (lets say 2.000 cars and 100 tracks) and then PD puts aditional models for download after the game is released. (not holding back content)

^ I think option #2 is the best and most logical choice, and I hope PD will follow the same way too. If in any way PD stray away with this plan, consider PD hits its way back to the stoneages and let MS and Forza succeeds all the way.

-> So far as I read multiple pages of threads regarding GT HD, so far I'm still 50/50 especially on microtransaction (on which is based on this topic right now). So far, people have been griping about pay-as-you-download feature that PD is encouraging to future PS3/GT gamers, but as far as I concerned, I'm not really into panic mode just yet. All I say it takes time to really see on what GT5's juiciness really shows. (:

 

[Grayman222]

And paying for those downloads is another thing, haven't they already taken enough money off us by selling the game itself? (answer by them would of course be no).

I read somewhere that the game was to be sold at or barely above physical production cost. Thats like 5 dollars. So if you were to buy it and only play the premium part and not download for it Kaz gets no moneyhats.

 

[SkylineObsession]

Yeah just read that on IGN or somewhere before. It is a slightly better idea, but then there is still the issue of paying to get everything else.

They should just stick to the norm - release a full game with everything in it and then allow (free) downloads. That is something i'd be happy with.

And at the time of posting there has been exactly zero votes for the first option in the poll - 99.9% chance this won't change PD's mind if they happen across this topic.

 

[Wolfe]

It doesn't matter if the game costs $5 or $50, the problem is that the cars and tracks are too expensive. As PjotrStroganov put it in the other (much larger) GTHD thread...

You have seen the prices of the content didn't you? Not being ripped off would be paying less than 1/750th of the price of GT4 for one car in HD. It's not that the total amount of money we spend, will be less than that of the original GT4. It's the principle that we will be paying much more per car/track. Even for a completely new game this wouldn't be right, let alone a glorified port. Saying it again or not; it's a bleedin' convincing argument.

If the "rumored" prices that have been floating around here turn out to be vastly exaggerated, then there may not be any problem after all. But as it stands, the cars and tracks cost too much to be worth it.

 

[BuzzOrHowl]

Ok... I'm the one (!) guy who picked option one.

Why?
For starters I like it when people throw things at me...

Mission Accomplished! (ducks)

But seriously, I think it will be fun to start out with nothing and gradually build up a garage. I like collecting things... and I'll drive the hell out of every car I get. I just don't care if I spend $5.00 a week on cars from now to armagedon. It's really not that much.

I know that one of the strengths of GT2 and GT4 was the depth of car selection, but this is a different game... with different strengths.

As far a pleading poverty, if you can afford a PS3 and a HDTV to use it, you can probably afford my weekly car budget, especially if the game is only $5 or $10 to start out with.

Worried about losing online races to someone who bought a better car? Spend your first $.50 on something like the Sauber Mercedes or the F1 car... Problem Solved!

As far as the marketing wisdom of this choice goes, the Famine brings up some strong points, but only time and the market will really tell...

Consider, though, that Parents will be thrilled to find a game for under 10 bucks... which might lead to massive initial sales... and they'll probably be willing to ante up the credit card for 10-15 cars a week, which will probably keep junior happy.

Also, don't discount the aquisitive nature of kids... look how crazy they got about Pokemon cards... parents were driving all over to find the one card thier kid was hysterical for because nobody else at school had it.

If pokemon had come with all the cards initially, It would have made a lot less money... it was the drive to "get them all" the got people hooked and drove profits...

So maybe microtransactions are marketing suicide... but this could be marketing genius...


Finally, regarding the whole "wahh, I'm being ripped off/Raped/Bentover/ life is so unfair to me!!!" type posts, read my post from the GTHD thread, reproduced below.

Waitaminute... did someone bring up principle? are you kidding?

You're invoking Principle because a business that has developed a product wants to sell it to you at a profit?

Do you complainers think you are entitled to set Sony and PD's prices for them? If you don't think the product is worth the price, don't buy it! Problem solved!

Want to hear about principles? In a couple of months you'll be sitting in your safe homes playing GTHD on a thousand+ dollar gaming system (PS3 + HDTV) moaning about "having" to pay $.50 for each virtual car you want to drive...

Meanwhile all over the world men, women, and children are dying because they can't get $.50 worth of clean water.

I hate to sound melodramatic, but it's true...

It's pathetic that some of you think you have it rough in life because you have to pay for your entertainment.

I'm really losing respect for many of the posters on this board.

 

[Grayman222]

re: mustang-man
At least how I am looking at it and from what I read over TGS week, GTHD isn't really a fullgame anyways. So it's not like skipping it is a big deal.

Classic mode:
basically online with arcade mode and the nicer graphics. This doesn't even replace gt4. You can buy all the cars and tracks from GT4 + more to use online.

Premium:
a demo of gt5. Some of the new physics, ai, courses, and a look at the new graphics but probably not as good as gt5s. comes with a small amount of cars and two tracks.


This is how I can justify HD personally:
-they need to pay for an online service
-they are supposedly giving the game very cheap
-for racing other people online I can deal with confining myself to 10 or less cars and then in a few weeks or months getting a few more. Keep in mind that this is complete chump change even if they are at the upper suggested price of 80cents.
-tracks are that hardest part. I would probably log in and buy whatever the most popular track that i enjoyed was.
-so I thought about it and it would be a game to make me happy for less than gt4 costed new.

realistic Things that would make me a lot happier:
-variations of tracks(short, east, west, wet) being included in the single purchase of the main track.
-the rare envy intended cars being special paint jobs and settings tunes or very minor improvements at most. these cars shouldn't be cars like the enzo or the mac f1. If they are pace cars or tuned by gran turismo models that isn't so bad to the people who don't get them.


-you have to be able to race against cars you don't own. This is the deal breaker for me.

 

[Wolfe]

As far as the marketing wisdom of this choice goes, the Famine brings up some strong points, but only time and the market will really tell...

Consider, though, that Parents will be thrilled to find a game for under 10 bucks... which might lead to massive initial sales... and they'll probably be willing to ante up the credit card for 10-15 cars a week, which will probably keep junior happy.

Also, don't discount the aquisitive nature of kids... look how crazy they got about Pokemon cards... parents were driving all over to find the one card thier kid was hysterical for because nobody else at school had it.

There's a difference between buying Pokemon cards at a store and sending a credit card number to a videogame company over the internet. Namely, the fact that many more parents will be willing to do the former than the latter.

One can't underestimate the apprehension that many parents/adults have when it comes to dealing with credit card numbers over the phone or on the internet.

 

[HoffY]

That was a good point i was thinking about that got mentioned two posts up. ABout buying a track and that traack includeing all directions and variations. I hate it when sales ppl (or game creators) say "oh we have 50 tracks". Which actually means 5 tracks but reversed, mirrored, in rain, at night, half course, 1/4 course lenght, blah blah. Thats bollox. One track = one track with all varations. Simple.

I woudlnt mind paying a bit more for tracks as they take lots more work. But this would only be made sweet if they had some kind of public vote for which are the most requested and wanted tracks and in due time they create them using that wish list. And then make it a download for so many dollars (with all said variations) ala XBL PGR3 does (though they've only done cars afaik).

 

[ixnay]

How much profit does PD make on average per GT full release? Or, how much from GT3 or GT4? Does anyone have total sale figures and total budget? Or maybe even a company release detailing it? Just curious how much it costs for the company to model say 5 cars a month for a few months after release.

My post is not meant to relate to any side of this argument.

 

[Grayman222]

How much profit does PD make on average per GT full release? Or, how much from GT3 or GT4? Does anyone have total sale figures and total budget? Or maybe even a company release detailing it? Just curious how much it costs for the company to model say 5 cars a month for a few months after release.

My post is not meant to relate to any side of this argument.

I don't know where to find the factual evidence but I think they said it took a week to do a GT3 car compared to 1 day for a GT2 car. Thats a weeks wages/salary for at least one artist. I might not have that right though.

The premium stuff of course is just getting paid for GT5 work earlier. Classic might be a near zero cost because they may just be using the photomode models that already exist and doing minimal "work". If the photomode options are just a straight copy/paste then the cost is only attributed to the online infrastructure. Although, if a players ps3 can't host an online game and polyphony has to, that is hugely expensive, but I think the players probably will host their own games on their ps3 and bandwidth while sony is just the backend for game finding, match making, stats, sales, authorization.

 

[fasj6418]

Ok... I'm the one (!) guy who picked option one.

Why?
For starters I like it when people throw things at me...

Mission Accomplished! (ducks)

But seriously, I think it will be fun to start out with nothing and gradually build up a garage. I like collecting things... and I'll drive the hell out of every car I get. I just don't care if I spend $5.00 a week on cars from now to armagedon. It's really not that much.

I know that one of the strengths of GT2 and GT4 was the depth of car selection, but this is a different game... with different strengths.

As far a pleading poverty, if you can afford a PS3 and a HDTV to use it, you can probably afford my weekly car budget, especially if the game is only $5 or $10 to start out with.

Worried about losing online races to someone who bought a better car? Spend your first $.50 on something like the Sauber Mercedes or the F1 car... Problem Solved!

As far as the marketing wisdom of this choice goes, the Famine brings up some strong points, but only time and the market will really tell...

Consider, though, that Parents will be thrilled to find a game for under 10 bucks... which might lead to massive initial sales... and they'll probably be willing to ante up the credit card for 10-15 cars a week, which will probably keep junior happy.

Also, don't discount the aquisitive nature of kids... look how crazy they got about Pokemon cards... parents were driving all over to find the one card thier kid was hysterical for because nobody else at school had it.

If pokemon had come with all the cards initially, It would have made a lot less money... it was the drive to "get them all" the got people hooked and drove profits...

So maybe microtransactions are marketing suicide... but this could be marketing genius...


Finally, regarding the whole "wahh, I'm being ripped off/Raped/Bentover/ life is so unfair to me!!!" type posts, read my post from the GTHD thread, reproduced below.

well, GT is not really for kids. i often compare this board to some other games boards, and i can safely say that the gran turismo fan is a grown up man that loves cars. not a pokemon-teen age buyer.

and that´s a big difference since we´re talking microtransactions. old and critic players will be more difficult to trick than kids that don´t have to work to get their money.

a lot of guys that i know here are in their 30´s and only have a PS2 to play GT.

also, the game is not easy to learn if you not like cars. i don´t have a single friend that can play GT, they just don´t know how to drive, too hardcore for then. so, although the 47 million number on sales says one thing, i´m still not convinced that GT fan base is made up by casual gamers.

25/40 year old car enthusiast + critic consumer = no microtransactions rip off

 

[yeti]

How much profit does PD make on average per GT full release? Or, how much from GT3 or GT4? Does anyone have total sale figures and total budget? Or maybe even a company release detailing it? Just curious how much it costs for the company to model say 5 cars a month for a few months after release.

My post is not meant to relate to any side of this argument.

This is a very tricky question to answer...

Consider these points for profit/loss accounting...

1) Intended Release Date
2) Actual Release Date (slippage -> Lots!)
3) Amount of new code written
4) Amount of code reusable (Think Tourist Trophy -> GT:HD -> GT5)
5) Amount of code rewritten (Maintanence - upgrading/fixing)
6) Amount of code already written (From GT3,2,1)
7) Replace "code" in the above 3 with "models", "sounds", "graphics".
8) Amount of testing (regression, unit, release, full)
9) Cost of Manufacture (Physical manufacture)
10) Cost of Shipping
11) Sponsorship/Donations from Sony

C.

 

[TheCracker]

I ticked two - who wouldn't?

But, as a stop gap game, I'd happily buy GT:HD with few or no cars or tracks on the disk and then download only what i wanted. I guess that it will be cheap or free anyway so £40 worth of tracks and cars, with online racing a greater field and possibly a paintshop will certainly keep me occupied until we get GT5.

I'm sure GT5 will follow previous full games with a large and complete selection of cars and tracks with the possibility of further cars and tracks available online.

GT:HD is merely PD and Sony testing the water with online downloads, seing what the fans do or don't want before they impliment a nicely sorted version for GT5.

GT:HD is a stop-gap for fan-boys like GT Concept and Prologue were. It doesn't matter to them whether it sells 1 million or 14 million copies, as long as it gives them an idea of what the fans like or dislike about online updates/downloads.

Although i bought and played Prologue, i was never even remotely interested in Concept - yet i still bought GT4. Whether people boycott GT:HD or not, GT5 will still sell everybit as well as previous versions. Wait until GT:HD comes out and people on these boards are raving about the latest Ferrari FXX they've just downloaded to race on the Monza track they bought last week against their mates from all over the world. Then you'll start seing all the doubters rushing to the shops, wad of cash in hand desperate to buy GT:HD.

 

[MasterGT]

Just curious how much it costs for the company to model say 5 cars a month for a few months after release.

Kazunori has said that each GT:HD car take 6 months, on average, to finish.

Cheers,

MasterGT

 

[CurlyDE]

I voted for option #2. Personally, I am completly against paying more for content that was previously available for $50. So what if you can buy the game for $10 ... if you still have to pay $0.50 per car you jump pass the price of GT1 - GT4 pretty quickly and on top of that you still have to pay for tracks also. It is more of a principle thing for me. Yes, I can afford $5 a week for a new track and a few cars ... am I going to pay it, nope. In ten weeks you would have racked up $50 and I played GT4 a lot longer than ten weeks (still playing it now).

If GTHD is released with very little content and a microtransaction system. I will stick with my PC (two years old and runs the racing sims I want perfectly). LiveForSpeed and rFactor feel more life-like than GT4 anyway and I only have to pay for them once ... and as someone else mentioned the expandable content is free.

 

[MasterGT]

If the "rumored" prices that have been floating around here turn out to be vastly exaggerated, then there may not be any problem after all. But as it stands, the cars and tracks cost too much to be worth it.

The prices listed in the Famitsu article are not so much rumoured as they are coming straight from Kazunori. I had the article translated by another person and the source of the pricing info has been confirmed. That's about as official as it gets, for now. Maybe this week's Famitsu will have a bit more news, after the show.

Now, with him having said that publically, and with our reaction since, at the TGS, SONY reiterated what else was said about prices: these prices are not set yet. So my advice is to spread the word to all of the GT fans you know and get them educated to what is happening to a favourite game of many.

Maybe, just maybe, we can at least soften the blow caused by these changes and the ridiculous prices.

Cheers,

MasterGT

 

[Dimitrov]

Kazunori has said that each GT:HD car take 6 months, on average, to finish.

Cheers,

MasterGT

That does not implies that only 2 cars/year will be released.

Something like:

Effort:
1 car modelling: 18 person/month
-> If 1 person works in modelling, it will last 18 months
-> If 2 people works in modelling, it will last 9 months
-> If 3 people works in modelling, it will last 6 months
...
-> If 18 people works in modelling, it will last 1 month.

To achieve that goal (5 models a month), we need 90 people working in modelling.

Sure that are tasks that cannot be parallelized, but if we throw it all in a Gantt Diagram it will be much clearer to understand.

 

[Dimitrov]

Double post.
Sorry.

 

[MasterGT]

Correct. I didn't mean to imply otherwise.

Cheers,

MasterGT

 

[fasj6418]

That does not implies that only 2 cars/year will be released.

Something like:

Effort:
1 car modelling: 18 person/month
-> If 1 person works in modelling, it will last 18 months
-> If 2 people works in modelling, it will last 9 months
-> If 3 people works in modelling, it will last 6 months
...
-> If 18 people works in modelling, it will last 1 month.

To achieve that goal (5 models a month), we need 90 people working in modelling.

Sure that are tasks that cannot be parallelized, but if we throw it all in a Gantt Diagram it will be much clearer to understand.

with almost 50 million sold copies, GT is THE franchise that can afford to have 500+ staff working in the game. that´s an excuse for jumping in the downloadable thing. everyother racing game can model the cars and still meet their required ship date. GT shouldn´t be an exception.

i´m pretty sure they have a huge staff to model the cars.

plus, in GT4, out of the 719 cars, i think the number of different models to render was 354. i counted that, just now i forgot. lots of lancers and skylines that share the same rending

 

[Dimitrov]

with almost 50 million sold copies, GT is THE franchise that can afford to have 500+ staff working in the game. that´s an excuse for jumping in the downloadable thing. everyother racing game can model the cars and still meet their required ship date. GT shouldn´t be an exception.

i´m pretty sure they have a huge staff to model the cars.

plus, in GT4, out of the 719 cars, i think the number of different models to render was 354. i counted that, just now i forgot. lots of lancers and skylines that share the same rending

Indeed.

That was just an example to illustrate the subject.

The PD development engineering must be way more complex than anything we said here. I remember when I completed 25% of the game, I gave up counting the amount of names that scrooled up onto screen.

And, like you said and someone else here, there is the reusability issue.

Modelling basic shapes and composing full models from these makes the job much easier.

Imagine modelling 751 types of tires. No way. Model just 40 of them and make 4 instances into each car. Same goes with doors, hoods and lights, specially in the Skylines as you said.

The more you develop, the easier is to develop new stuff. I guarantee that the first skyline ever modelled took, say, 3 months. the second one took 4 days, the third, 3 5/8 days and so on.

But you have the information density issue. Do they have tera-resolution models for reference (imagine 20TB on disk per model) and ps2 just abstracts most of the information to make a 500Kb model? If they were smart, they modelled a raw scheme with full information and version to version they would use more of this model.

To make myself clearer, imagine that GT4 model of Nissan Silvia is just 13% of stored model into PD's archives. GT5 will be 38%. There will be a time when they will surely need to "re-model the model", because the system capacity to make an output of a 20TB model will be reached (perhaps 17 years from now).

Or not. Our imperfect eyes need glasses. Who cares?

The moral is that you can model a Bora from scratch and then a Golf from Bora. And then a Golf Variant from Golf, and then.... and then...

 

[JTSnooks]

Here's a question. What if they release GT:HD with few cars (as they've said), and release a lot of additional cars available for download (as they've said). Then, when they release GT5, the game will have hundreds of cars, tons of tracks etc., but not all of the models that have been released online. But, you will be able to use the models you've already downloaded from GT:HD in GT5. In other words, they could release special models in the interim that would allow you to build a diverse yet small garage full of vehicles that won't be initially available in GT5. That way you spend $20 on GT:HD, another $20 on cars, then you buy GT5 and already have all of the cars that aren't included in the game brand new.

Or, as they develop new cars/tracks from GT5, they release some of them for GT:HD, so GT:HD is more like being able to test drive GT5 before it's released, only you only have to buy the cars/tracks you really want. That way, you can get an idea of the graphics, physics, and style of GT5, you can drive the cars you want in HD, around tracks you want in HD, and when GT5 comes out you can get the whole shebang for one bundled price of $50 or $60! Sounds like a good idea to me. How many of you can say that if you'd had the opportunity to buy more cars online for GT4rologue you wouldn't have done it?

Anyway, I voted for #2 since the thread seems to be about GT5, and from what I've heard, they do plan on releasing a very large game (likely close to GT4 scale) when it finally comes out. For GT:HD, I have no problem with it being small with lots of online content, although it will make my decision about whether to buy a PS3 soon or later much more difficult.

 

[Tenacious D]

I think the reason that the Polyphony team is taking so long to model each car is because they're working on their damage system. I expect that each car is being rendered down to their significant components, possibly using the manufacturer's own crash test data. So the team is putting together virtual cars and giving each component its own characteristics. I've been using the term strength, stress and failure physics (I should be in marketing).

Anyway, remember that we outside of Japan aren't going to see our version for a few months, so we may have an entirely different microtransaction structure. We'll just have to wait and see.

 

[Grayman222]

^I've seen damage mentioned as racecar only because of how scared car companies get about a sim destroying their vehicles.

 

[SkylineObsession]

It's really not that much.

To people who can afford it.

There are always going to be people like myself who cannot afford to even get a credit card or choose not to for a variety of reasons. How are they then supposed to get new cars and tracks?

 

[Dave A]

I can afford it and I consider it to be far too much, jsut because I can affor dto spend a couple of hundered quid here and there doesn't mean I shouldn't feel ripped off about someone trying to charge me a couple of hundered quid for something worth a lot less. I can afford to pay £5 for fries at McDonalds, that doesn't mean I should give the a fiver everytime I go there.

 

[Flerbizky]

WE.......... DO.......... NOT.......... KNOW..........

What PDs model will be... STOP.. PLEASE..

ffs....

 

[TopHat]

If the cars were to cost 50 cents each, It would take only 100 cars to get to 50 dollars, which is simple maths. Sure to many this sounds outrageous, but take into account that these are the cars that YOU chose, not the cars that YOU don't wan't so I think that out of mabye thousands available for download, It is a great idea, but I still ticked 2.

MTT

 

[SkylineObsession]

One other thing, i notice a few people saying that microtransactions won't add up to much in the long run after you buy the PS3, the game, a steering wheel, a new HD TV and whatever else.

The reality is that heaps of people will only just be able to afford the PS3 and game let alone a brand new TV and steering wheel. If i got the new console it would likely be hooked up to my very old 21" TV which has a few dead pixels around the edges.