GT Sport's Penalty System is "Not Adequate Yet", Says Kazunori Yamauchi

[GTPNewsWire]

This is the discussion thread for a recent post on GTPlanet:

GT Sport's Penalty System is "Not Adequate Yet", Says Kazunori Yamauchi

This article was published by Andrew Evans (@Famine) on June 29th, 2019 in the Gran Turismo Sport category.

 

[slashgnr08]

all well and good saying the need to assess the incident etc, but getting a penalty for running wide and losing time, especially at tracks like interlagos, and then losing more and more time for the penalty you end up getting, i mean come on, surely that isnt that hard to fix,

if you end up gaining an advantage yeah sure, but if you lose time you shouldnt get a penalty

 

[GT_Alex74]

Neural network would obviously be a major step, but you need a lot of processing power for that. Kaz totally makes sense here.

 

[BallPtPenTheif]

all well and good saying the need to assess the incident etc, but getting a penalty for running wide and losing time, especially at tracks like interlagos, and then losing more and more time for the penalty you end up getting, i mean come on, surely that isnt that hard to fix,

if you end up gaining an advantage yeah sure, but if you lose time you shouldnt get a penalty

I honestly don't care about that. If someone is running wide on turns they sort of blew it in the first place. I'd much rather have corner rights and dive bombing get settled so we can begin to push the player behavior in the right direction.

 

[DriftShock]

I’ve found Driving Standards have drastically improved since the Penalty Slow Zone update
Now people can no longer try gaming the system
However, I’m definitely with Kaz here, a lot of work needs to go into the penalty system before it actually does anything useful

 

[Epic B]

Well, he's not wrong. But I don't think the penalty system will ever be flawless.

 

[NosOsH]

I think they need to penalise the the person following much more than the leader as they do on real roads. I know its not the same as street driving but at least punters and barge passers will be penalised as they are not at all 90% of the time. Of course if the system could tell whether someone is braking way off or out of braking zones, then sure a brake check penalty might make sense. But 90% of the time the follower should be responsible enough not to destroy someone elses race.
And then force slow penalise them right after the incident so they realise the consequences arent worth it.
At least then clean drivers would have a chance at controlling their own destiny.

 

[Keith2324]

Well we do have cars in the game with lights/sirens on them. Maybe they should start giving out tickets!

Keith.

 

[Phaceless_Ph]

I always thought of it as a work in progress to be honest.

I think they need to penalise the the person following much more than the leader as they do on real roads. I know its not the same as street driving but at least punters and barge passers will be penalised as they are not at all 90% of the time. Of course if the system could tell whether someone is braking way off or out of braking zones, then sure a brake check penalty might make sense. But 90% of the time the follower should be responsible enought to not destroy someone elses race.
And then force slow penalise them right after the incident so they realise the consequences arent worth it.
At least then clean drivers would have a chance at controlling their own destiny.

It's still very easy to game the system, for example:

If you brake-check someone then deliberately steer off-track or into a wall, they guy you've brake-checked get's the penalty.

If you bump someone from behind then deliberately steer off-track or into a wall, the guy you've bumped get's the penalty.

I've increasingly seen trolls doing this in the SR E-B rated lobbies.

 

[GaLbaNoryes]

The one thing I don't get with the penalty system is why it punishes you when you hit a wall hard. Like, not wallriding but hitting a wall and stopping. I already lost time, so why penalize me further?

 

[Phaceless_Ph]

The one thing I don't get with the penalty system is why it punishes you when you hit a wall hard. Like, not wallriding but hitting a wall and stopping. I already lost time, so why penalize me further?

It also penalises you for legitimated making a mistake and running wide in a way which costs you time, prime example = running wide at Arnage corner.

I remember Kaz saying that these penalties are based on base laptimes set by AI, only problem is that we know how horrifically slow said AI can be.

 

[R07_HavoK]

I absolutely hate this. It makes no sense to penalize someone for making a mistake when no advantage was gained, and it shouldn't be difficult to fix.

 

[QTheRacer_31]

Just when I was saying: Why the hell am I getting a penalty when a guy hits me then wrecks...

 

[GaLbaNoryes]

Just when I was saying: Why the hell am I getting a penalty when a guy hits me then wrecks...

Saw this clip today. If I ever had to explain GTS to someone I'd show them this clip.

 

[ScottPuss20]

When will it be adequate? There are a heap of things to consider and at what point do we say that it is adequate? Wherein most penalties are correct instead of unfair and illogical? How are we to judge that? It's like an umpire or a referee; some of their decisions may not be ones you agree with. Are we going to live with that? If that's what the penalty system will do, than we cannot complain. The players have to understand this.

 

[Brzlav]

Saw this clip today. If I ever had to explain GTS to someone I'd show them this clip.

Why is this scene typical for GTS in your opinion?

 

[WyldAnimal]

Turn on Mechanical Damage.
In these Nartion Cup events the Damage should be on Heavy !
Screw up and you pay the price...

LAG, if the system detects a car's position suddenly changes, Jumps instantly from point a to point b, then Permanently Ghost that car..

 

[Tomsoft]

Turn on Mechanical Damage.
In these Nartion Cup events the Damage should be on Heavy !
Screw up and you pay the price...

I've made very bad experiences with the damage systems. There were already some Nations Cup rounds where the damage was set on heavy and the people just got even more insane. Someone just completely took out 12 drivers at Autopolis once.

Trust me, if they'd keep it at heavy, then there would be a lot more problems.

 

[monkeywall]

To little to late Kaz after 20+ years of gt, gtsport nearly put me off racing online. Until i moved to iracing which has a better penalty system (and SR & DR system). There where issues raised in the closed beta forum about the penalty system and the sportsman ranking system that people are still complaining about today (unfair penalties from brake checking etc). The more I read comments from PD the more I think gtsport is just gt6 quick match in a shining box as well as a prologue to gt7.

On a positive note thanks PD for the many years of racing which was fun.

 

[Riptide]

Good news to me. As long as they keep trying to improve and progress is shown, I'm good. Not naive to think it will ever be perfect.

 

[ROCKET JOE]

I first and foremost wanna thank the gtplanet staff for putting it on the agenda at all .
The penalty system ( in combination with the SR rating ) is a game breaker to me, so I really appreciate any support ... and I feel less alone now !

 

[VulcanSpirit]

Encouraging words from Kaz. While I can tolerate the penalty system in its current form, it is great to see that even he and the team at Polyphony are aware of its limitations and intend to tweak it further. Not expecting total perfection by the time GT Sport's servers (eventually) shut down, but I'm looking forward to seeing how they develop the system from this point onwards.

 

[Lebowski]

The biggest issues to me that need addressing are recieving an orange arrow everytime another car taps me from behind resulting in loss of clean race bonuses and SR, and the method of serving a penalty, the penalty zone. The only way a penalty should be served is at the end of the race with the time being added. To recieve a 1 second penalty in the race is crippling. By the time you have got back up to speed it's cost more like 5 seconds. How hard can it be to just add it on the end with no method of removing it during the race?!

 

[Ande3200]

I guess it can be an issue for some. For me i am not bothered with it. I have not Done Any online race for 1,5 years. I prefer and have more focus on offline mode. And thats the Only place i care to have more content in as well

 

[Phaceless_Ph]

The biggest issues to me that need addressing are recieving an orange arrow everytime another car taps me from behind resulting in loss of clean race bonuses and SR, and the method of serving a penalty, the penalty zone. The only way a penalty should be served is at the end of the race with the time being added. To recieve a 1 second penalty in the race is crippling. By the time you have got back up to speed it's cost more like 5 seconds. How hard can it be to just add it on the end with no method of removing it during the race?!

It's not that easy for AI to figure out the intent of each driver.

 

[watto79]

Creating an algorithm that correctly identifies who is to blame 100% of the time is likely impossible. The most we can hope for is a system that gets it right more often than it gets it wrong.

Just look at today's F1 where its taking a group of stewards several hours to decide if a penalty should be applied.

I thank GTPlanet for raising this question with Kaz, and I am encouraged by his response.

 

[breeminator]

Creating an algorithm that correctly identifies who is to blame 100% of the time is likely impossible. The most we can hope for is a system that gets it right more often than it gets it wrong.

Just look at today's F1 where its taking a group of stewards several hours to decide if a penalty should be applied.

I think AI could get it right most (maybe even all) of the time if the rules were defined well enough, and were defined in terms of actions rather than intent. F1 rules aren't all that well defined, and that's a major reason why they struggle to reach a decision.

However, I'm also pleased that GTP raised this, and encouraged by Kaz's words. I don't agree with him about neural nets not being able to be applied yet, I think it's completely possible, but probably not financially viable due to the person hours required to create a sufficiently large training database. When he talks about more things needing to happen, he maybe appreciates this, and might be thinking in terms of performing more conventional algorithmic processing on the raw data to create inputs to a neural net that won't require such a vast training database. To give an example of what I mean by this, we could, right now, present the raw inputs to a neural net - controller inputs, car co-ordinates, track feature co-ordinates. Each incident would achieve very little training effect as it would be extremely specific to that incident, so the training database would need to be gigantic. If conventional algorithmic processing were used to process those inputs into concepts such as a car being on the "inside" or "outside", and whether their line was getting "tighter" or "looser" relative to a "normal" racing line for that corner (these are just examples of such processing to illustrate the idea), then each incident would become much more generally applicable and the size of the training database required would be much smaller.

 

[ARTAsean]

The biggest issues to me that need addressing are recieving an orange arrow everytime another car taps me from behind resulting in loss of clean race bonuses and SR, and the method of serving a penalty, the penalty zone. The only way a penalty should be served is at the end of the race with the time being added. To recieve a 1 second penalty in the race is crippling. By the time you have got back up to speed it's cost more like 5 seconds. How hard can it be to just add it on the end with no method of removing it during the race?!

If someone ruined your race/position, wouldn’t you rather them get a ‘crippling’ penalty that’s effectively 5 seconds rather than just 1 second applied at the end?

 

[sturk0167]

Creating an algorithm that correctly identifies who is to blame 100% of the time is likely impossible. The most we can hope for is a system that gets it right more often than it gets it wrong.

Just look at today's F1 where its taking a group of stewards several hours to decide if a penalty should be applied.

I thank GTPlanet for raising this question with Kaz, and I am encouraged by his response.

Is all that stuff done in-house at PD, or do they outsource algorithm programming? Couldn't they hire some experts from Microsoft, or Silicon Valley to set things up right? I don't know how it works. Would it be too expensive to do that?

 

[FoRiZon]

PD needs to hire someone from iRacing to fix the penalties, i think?