GT4 vs Forza [Let the battle begin]

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Swift
First, the "best" looking game is a matter of opinion. Second, 60FPS does matter, I've played PGR2 and I could immediately tell it was 30fps. It was obvious!

Now, sure it looked good. But I like the flow of 60fps better.

Here's another thing....nobody that played PGR2 cared that it was 30fps because it looked good. and it was the best driving game on Xbox, so what else do they have to play?

I'm still trying to figure out why Xbox, being the more powerful system can't have it's flagship titles(for driving) run at 60fps.
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Because it's running on the equivalent of an Nvidia Geforce 2, MX even.
 
Swift
I'm still trying to figure out why Xbox, being the more powerful system can't have it's flagship titles(for driving) run at 60fps.
Click to expand...

Becuase sometime before PGR2 was released MS apparently did some kind of survey which showed that most people cant tell the difference so they now encorage more detail and FSAA over 60fps.
 
Gek54
Becuase sometime before PGR2 was released MS apparently did some kind of survey which showed that most people cant tell the difference so they now encorage more detail and FSAA over 60fps.
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If this was true, they wouldn't have encouraged development like that, because everyone can tell that 60FPS is much smoother that 30FPS.
 
Gabkicks
nope, ya cant. :) you dont understand that if you can tell the difference your not looking at a constant framerate. it musthave dropped and you noticed that.
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oh dear i dont wont too sound harsh................please just shut up your sounding a bit short sighted( possible reason for not seeing the diffrence) its a well know fact you can tell higher framerates 30fps vs 60fps 60 WILL always win its much faster controls and much more fluid movements, play burnout 2 on two player splitscreen the game switches from 60fps too 30fps the diffrence is night and day
 
Well, when I provided the "X-Play" segment, I just wanted to provide some info on what others are saying about Forza. When it comes to GT4 vs. Forza based on what I provided on Forza, these are going to be the storylines:

B-Spec vs. Drivatar
LAN Multiplay vs. XBOX Live Multiplay
Excessive tuning vs. excessive tuning and some extra mods
road/rally/drag vs. all real circuits (?)

Let me talk about this "Drivatar" thing. Okay. I can recall Virtua Fighter 4. No, not Evolution, but VF4. When you go training with the available characters, you can choose to use a sort of system that allows you to help learn your AI character new moves. The more moves you teach this AI counterpart, the more powerful he/she will be against the competition. I know when I tried with my boy Kage in the game, all the moves I recalled, the AI version learned my moves and can use them against any opponent. And there all sorts of situations such as counters, throws, reversals, crouching attacks, jumping attacks, side attacks, back attacks, and all that. How does this relate to Forza? Well, it seems like this "Drivatar" can actually be a way so that your driving style is recorded so that this AI racer is more like an extension of your driving talent. To me, this is what "Drivatar" sounds like. But if I'm wrong, maybe someone like Kinigitt or somebody can set me straight about this.
 
Swift
First, the "best" looking game is a matter of opinion. Second, 60FPS does matter, I've played PGR2 and I could immediately tell it was 30fps. It was obvious!

Now, sure it looked good. But I like the flow of 60fps better.

Here's another thing....nobody that played PGR2 cared that it was 30fps because it looked good. and it was the best driving game on Xbox, so what else do they have to play?

I'm still trying to figure out why Xbox, being the more powerful system can't have it's flagship titles(for driving) run at 60fps.
Click to expand...

Remove the car damage, advance car / tyre physics. Advance AI, high-res texture, remove 2 car on the track, remove online features, remove 480p mode, remove customer paint job and you will be able to run a game at 60 FPS that is going to look better then GT4. But you see, I think the FM developper have choose gameplay over graphics. Would you agree that it's the best way to go ?

It nobody told you PGR2 was in 30 FPS, you wouldn't of never know it was. I'm so tired of hearing the same thing over again. You will only see a difference when the framerate drop. That is it. If it's 30 FPS LOCKED, you will never know. Did you know by the way that the NTSC standards is at 29.97 FPS. Do you think also think that when you are watching TV the image doesn't flow correctly ?
 
Symtex
Remove the car damage, advance car / tyre physics. Advance AI, high-res texture, remove 2 car on the track, remove online features, remove 480p mode, remove customer paint job and you will be able to run a game at 60 FPS that is going to look better then GT4. But you see, I think the FM developper have choose gameplay over graphics. Would you agree that it's the best way to go ?
Click to expand...

Try to put it the other way:

If PD had dropped the framerate of GT4 to 30FPS they could have make a game with twice the cars on track, car damage... They could have made a game with roughly twice the polygons on screen per frame. A game that would have looked prettier than Forza by EVEN a much wider margin...

But PD did the right thing an opted to go for arcade-quality 60 FPS.

Developers (at least racing game developers) should aim for the better graphics they can manage WHILE mantaining 60 FPS. Dropping to 30 FPS to keep high polygon counts is unnaceptable. But then again is painfully obvious that the Forza team is no Poliphony Digital. What these peope is capable of doing with the PS2 is simply awesome.

It nobody told you PGR2 was in 30 FPS, you wouldn't of never know it was. I'm so tired of hearing the same thing over again. You will only see a difference when the framerate drop. That is it. If it's 30 FPS LOCKED, you will never know.
Click to expand...

Absolutely false. But if believing so makes you feel better...
 
monton1999
Try to put it the other way:

If PD had dropped the framerate of GT4 to 30FPS they could have make a game with twice the cars on track, car damage... They could have made a game with roughly twice the polygons on screen per frame. A game that would have looked prettier than Forza by EVEN a much wider margin...

But PD did the right thing an opted to go for arcade-quality 60 FPS.

Developers (at least racing game developers) should aim for the better graphics they can manage WHILE mantaining 60 FPS. Dropping to 30 FPS to keep high polygon counts is unnaceptable. But then again is painfully obvious that the Forza team is no Poliphony Digital. What these peope is capable of doing with the PS2 is simply awesome.



Absolutely false. But if believing so makes you feel better...
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I absolutely agree in every way.

Anyone can see the difference between 30 and 60 fps. Its half the framerate!! The human eye can see up to 72 frames per second, from then on, it doesn't make a difference. Seeing images at 72fps is the same as seeing them at 999fps, but there's a big difference from 30 to 60fps.
 
Symtex
It nobody told you PGR2 was in 30 FPS, you wouldn't of never know it was.
Click to expand...

True.

If Bizarre had clamed PGR2 was in 60fps, nobody would suspect the game for running at 30fps. Many major gamesites even thought the game was 60 fps.

Same goes for test drive lemans on dreamcast..another 30fps game. :eek:
 
JohnBM01
Well, when I provided the "X-Play" segment, I just wanted to provide some info on what others are saying about Forza. When it comes to GT4 vs. Forza based on what I provided on Forza, these are going to be the storylines:

B-Spec vs. Drivatar
LAN Multiplay vs. XBOX Live Multiplay
Excessive tuning vs. excessive tuning and some extra mods
road/rally/drag vs. all real circuits (?)

Let me talk about this "Drivatar" thing. Okay. I can recall Virtua Fighter 4. No, not Evolution, but VF4. When you go training with the available characters, you can choose to use a sort of system that allows you to help learn your AI character new moves. The more moves you teach this AI counterpart, the more powerful he/she will be against the competition. I know when I tried with my boy Kage in the game, all the moves I recalled, the AI version learned my moves and can use them against any opponent. And there all sorts of situations such as counters, throws, reversals, crouching attacks, jumping attacks, side attacks, back attacks, and all that. How does this relate to Forza? Well, it seems like this "Drivatar" can actually be a way so that your driving style is recorded so that this AI racer is more like an extension of your driving talent. To me, this is what "Drivatar" sounds like. But if I'm wrong, maybe someone like Kinigitt or somebody can set me straight about this.
Click to expand...

you get 2 points for a VF4 reference, but I can't "straighten" you out because I know as much as the next guy about forza. jack-****.

Ask Tha_con (he's the one with the beta) about the drivatar and whether or not it's useful or developer hype.
 
Symtex
Remove the car damage, advance car / tyre physics. Advance AI, high-res texture, remove 2 car on the track, remove online features, remove 480p mode, remove customer paint job and you will be able to run a game at 60 FPS that is going to look better then GT4. But you see, I think the FM developper have choose gameplay over graphics. Would you agree that it's the best way to go ?

It nobody told you PGR2 was in 30 FPS, you wouldn't of never know it was. I'm so tired of hearing the same thing over again. You will only see a difference when the framerate drop. That is it. If it's 30 FPS LOCKED, you will never know. Did you know by the way that the NTSC standards is at 29.97 FPS. Do you think also think that when you are watching TV the image doesn't flow correctly ?
Click to expand...

Actually its probably FSAA that is causing the biggest tax on the graphics speed than anything else. I guess you forgot that GT4 runs at 60fps in 480p and 1080i on a 333Mhz 32MB system versus a 700Mhz 64MB system.

You might not be sensitive to slow framerates but it doesnt mean everyone else is as inept as you. 30fps is instantly noticalbe to me as it looks choppy and yes choppy graphics affect gameplay.

NTSC standard is 30fps as such most TV programs run at that speed and they do look choppy. Its very noticalbe when they switch between the speeds for example when the show a clip from a hand held camera. The problem is that I am not trying to manipulate the images on the TV shows, its all being done for me, but if I was in control I would much prefer 60fps.
 
Yeah, you guys all pretty much proved my point.

And if you put GT3 and PGR2 side by side or even play one right after the other, It's obvious. Man, why is that so hard to admit? Here's what I'm saying. If they can't do all those wonderful things like damage and all at 60fps with a machine much stronger then the PS2, what's wrong with this picture. I wonder what PD could do with the Xbox?
 
Part of what Symtex said is unarguably right, when you watch an NTSC TV your not watching 60fps, your watching 30 or near enough to 30. I don't hear people saying TV is inadequate, it's jerky or it doesn't look smooth, and thats because it does look smooth and it is adequate. If your playing a game at 60fps and it suddenly slows to 30fps you will notice, but if you play a constant 30fps, noticing becomes a whole lot harder. I'm not saying you can't tell at all, but everyone who's going on that it's the difference between night and day need to get their heads checked. Also I noticed somoene say 30fps meant slower controls, WTF it has nothing to do with the games controls.

If all this Forza v GT4 has boiled down to this one thing, FPS sice Forza matches or beats GT4 in almost every way that isn't opinion based the GT4 side is looking pretty weak. Just accept the fact that both games will be ace, if Forza is the better, so be it, if not then damn good effort to MGS. Either way I'm looking forward to both and the sequels.
 
live4speed
Part of what Symtex said is unarguably right, when you watch an NTSC TV your not watching 60fps, your watching 30 or near enough to 30. I don't hear people saying TV is inadequate, it's jerky or it doesn't look smooth, and thats because it does look smooth and it is adequate. If your playing a game at 60fps and it suddenly slows to 30fps you will notice, but if you play a constant 30fps, noticing becomes a whole lot harder. I'm not saying you can't tell at all, but everyone who's going on that it's the difference between night and day need to get their heads checked. Also I noticed somoene say 30fps meant slower controls, WTF it has nothing to do with the games controls.

If all this Forza v GT4 has boiled down to this one thing, FPS sice Forza matches or beats GT4 in almost every way that isn't opinion based the GT4 side is looking pretty weak. Just accept the fact that both games will be ace, if Forza is the better, so be it, if not then damn good effort to MGS. Either way I'm looking forward to both and the sequels.
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I agree with you. The argument is very weak. Like I said so many times before if you want to promote some of the advantages of GT4, pick the one that afffect gameplay like : DFP, # of cars and # of track. 60 FPS or 30 FPS does not affect gameplay when it's well done. I would prefer FSAA @ 30 FPS anyday compare to no FSAA @ 60 FPS. When you have a tv like mine (HITACHI 51''), AA makes a big differences.
 
http://www.forzacentral.com/gallery/browseimages.php?c=5

http://www.forzacentral.com/gallery/browseimages.php?c=11

whole bunch of new screens up at Forza Central... looking very impressive if you ask me.

fujimi-000.jpg


Also I think this is relevent to quite a few people who post here :)

20050205.jpg
enjoy !
 
Front
http://www.forzacentral.com/gallery/browseimages.php?c=5

http://www.forzacentral.com/gallery/browseimages.php?c=11

whole bunch of new screens up at Forza Central... looking very impressive if you ask me.

fujimi-000.jpg


Also I think this is relevent to quite a few people who post here :)

20050205.jpg
enjoy !
Click to expand...

It's a classic. I have all 3 console at home but you always have a favorite. I always liked xbox more but that does't mean I don't appreciate PS2. Right now I'm playing CON : RTA and GT3. I will probably play GT4 until Forza comes out. It's all about the software, not hardware.
 
I dont think that pic is a BMW. Headlights are all wrong and the badge on the front is a horizontal lightning bolt.. isnt that an opel or something?

And Both games will be awesome.. but I am more excited about the 500 + more cars GT4 will have.
 
Gabkicks
u gotta admit.... that was pretty newbish calling that opel a BMW :)
Click to expand...

If you're referring to me specifically, and not to the improper identification of the car in the screenshot, then you obviously fail to grasp the full value of sarcasm. Anyway, you, like at least one that came before, also deserve a special
Whoooooooooooooooooosh--------------------->

Right over.....your head!
 
Actually, if you played the demo, you'd notice that the car takes a while before popping up.

I switch to a 911 GT3, it pops up. Switch to a Ferrari 333SP, that Porsche will be there, but then it will switch to 333SP. Unfornately, it doesn't switch at light speed like GT so I guess that's negative for Forza if you care that much.

Sheesh, don't jump to conclusions.
 
live4speed
Thats twice in one thread, good going.
Click to expand...

Well, if you look closely, this second one has been modified somewhat, and although there is a slight improvement from my initial effort, it still needs some refinement. Before this thread expires, or is placed in its proper folder, I believe that I will have nailed it down....perfectly!
 

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