GT4 vs Forza [Let the battle begin]

[code_kev]

I hate to say it, Code, but those pictures don't really seem all that impressive. Pretty, yes, but I'm sure there are games that look just as nice.

OFC there are games that look just as nice, rsc2 for example looks better, but you can't deny that the cars in that are easily as good as anything seen in a GT game. PGR2 did have some weaker looking cars, but the Ferraris etc were stunning.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v64/iceburns288/IMG_2360wp.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v64/iceburns288/IMG_2364wp.jpg
(I didn't take these shots)

I liked sega gt2002, had some cool features, some interesting cars etc. Did feel abit odd though at low speeds, but once you got goin, twas a laugh.

Why am I posting PGR2 stuff in a forza vs GT thread...

 

[James2097]

Well I admit I didn't really give SegaGT2002 a very fair go. It was more of a initial "Oh yuck" and subsequent sticking in of the Halo disc. I did end up playing through about 2 thirds of it and got reasonably good at the handling, but I never got anything you would consider an adrenalin fueled 'thrill' out of it. Yeah I remember there were some nice features, but then again there was the trademarked awful SEGA menu music:tdown:

Edit: It did have some nice muscle cars if I remember correctly.

 

[f1king]

Has anyone played R:racing evolution I thought that was a good game. I dont care for the storyline and all but cool game.

 

[James2097]

Your joking right, f1King? R:Racing was universally panned by all critics and God himself I believe. Good to hear namco's development budget was worth it for you alone


Edit: We're gonna need a "failed GT competitors" thread if we're gonna keep on like this... Better get back to Forza/GT.

 

[f1king]

Oh damn! God too...... I guess im alone on this one, ok the handling sucked but fun game I alone think.

Hey didnt you like the seen where the chick comes out ot the shower with her towel on, or something like that its been a while since Ive played it.

 

[f1king]

Edit: We're gonna need a "failed GT competitors" thread if we're gonna keep on like this... Better get back to Forza/GT.

Ok ok.

 

[James2097]

If you like it for the chicks thats entirely normal. If they weren't computer generated.

 

[kinigitt]

Kinigitt, I never inferred you said 30 was BETTER than 60 (duh as if). However you did say there was NO difference in real terms, which was silly.



I was simply highlighting the very real reasons why devs want their games to run at 60. This concept is so mind meltingly basic I just don't know how you don't get it.

The frame rate stutters in PGR2 are real at least on my XBOX (old launch model), and only in the REPLAYS as mentioned as I made sure to specify in my original post about it. I do like peanut butter sandwiches however. I don't however want to be drawn into a juvenile flame war with you, as it would be nasty, resulting in me winning, and then being banned.

Hey Code, if you've spent much time in Sydney (I assume not), you'll be laughing at the PGR2 layout of that city as much as me. Also I was soo pissed you don't ever drive over the damn bridge! That game has really varied quality in the graphics, sometimes really bland and flat- other times, real pretty. PGR2 is a fine game, and one that doesn't have subtle enough physics to worry about the 30fps too much. But then Burnout2/3 came out at 60fps and smoked it real hard.

WHOA! flamewar?! fruh? What are you talking about?

I was just kidding about the crack, it's a line from the chappelle show (if you don't watch it, then you must not be kidding about your sig...)

You just told me that I said something that I didn't say. Kind of wierd thing to do. I didn't say you can't tell the difference, I actually said you can (the bit about it being more fluid, easier on the eyes, etc.). I just said 30fps, if LOCKED, is playable.

on a side note, burnout 3 got old after 45 minutes for me. I played PGR2 for months straight, so which game smoked the other "hard" is completely subjective.

For future reference, allow me to introduce you to Tyrone Biggums, the crackhead:

tyrone

 

[mrchicken&fries]

Think about this:

If people can't tell the difference between 30 FPS and 60 FPS, why games developers keep making 60 FPS games?

With a 30FPS game the console has TWICE the time to draw the next frame allowing to put roughly twice the stuff on screen. Why not make prettier (more polygons) 30 FPS games instead of going for the magical "arcade-quality" 60 FPS.

As for the hand eye-coordination thing... Try playing an old-fashioned shooter (galaxians, for example) at less than 60 FPS. Absolutely unplayable. It's impossible to achieve the necessary precision to dodge the bullets playing at 30fps.

Dont quote me but i dont think its frames per second but input. The speed at which the controller input is being calculated or just the speed at which they allow the object to move.

 

[kinigitt]

Dont quote me but i dont think its frames per second but input. The speed at which the controller input is being calculated or just the speed at which they allow the object to move.

that controller input stuff sounds like a bunch of hoohah to me.

 

[Swift]

Whatever makes you feel better. 30 fps sucks.

Hmm...when did I say anything about 30fps. All I said was that input fields per second is a important as displayed frames per second. Do you even know what I'm talking about?

 

[f1king]

that controller input stuff sounds like a bunch of hoohah to me.

Yeah sounds like hooo haaaaaaaaaaa to me too I dont think ive ever heard of it, but its possible I guess.

 

[mrchicken&fries]

that controller input stuff sounds like a bunch of hoohah to me.

U have to bare with me im just learning all this stuff and dont really know how to explain it properly. What i mean is when u are moving the thumbstick the computer has to read the input but its more important in a wheel pedal set up. Example if u turn the wheel from a netral 180 degrees than back 180 degrees to netral position in one second and the computer was reading your inputs at 10 times a second. The delay would be so slow it would be real akward to race.Now imagine u turning the wheel about 20 degrees in each position back and fourth constantly there probally would be no input at all or a big delay. To get acurate steering at 10 sample a second u would have to turn the wheel really slow for the computer to keep up reading it. But if read it at 100 times a second it would allow u to turn the wheel much faster and keep up with your inputs. The faster the better. its similiar to frame rates. So i think controller and frame rate are important to precesion in a FPS or Racer not just frame rate.But controlling sampling as they call it i think is much much much more important to prescision than the frame rate.

The speed of which u see and or graphics move on screen is not controlled by frame rate. Frame rate just makes it smoother. For example Burnout 3 is really fast while Toc Race Driver 2 is slow compared but both are 60 frames a second

 

[Swift]

U have to bare with me im just learning all this stuff and dont really know how to explain it properly. What i mean is when u are moving the thumbstick the computer has to read the input but its more important in a wheel pedal set up. Example if u turn the wheel from a netral 180 degrees than back 180 degrees to netral position in one second and the computer was reading your inputs at 10 times a second. The delay would be so slow it would be real akward to race.Now imagine u turning the wheel about 20 degrees in each position back and fourth constantly there probally would be no input at all or a big delay. To get acurate steering at 10 sample a second u would have to turn the wheel really slow for the computer to keep up reading it. But if read it at 100 times a second it would allow u to turn the wheel much faster and keep up with your inputs. The faster the better. its similiar to frame rates. So i think controller and frame rate are important to precesion in a FPS or Racer not just frame rate.

The speed of which u see and or graphics move on screen is not controlled by frame rate. Frame rate just makes it smoother. For example Burnout 3 is really fast while Toc Race Driver 2 is slow compared but both are 60 frames a second

That was a pretty good analogy. 👍

 

[code_kev]

He's right, polling for inputs can make a huge difference. More inputs per second, the better the feeling of control.

 

[mrchicken&fries]

That was a pretty good analogy. 👍

Thanks man im just learning all this stuff and telling it the way i uderstand it. and waitign to hear other peoples input.

 

[monton1999]

He's right, polling for inputs can make a huge difference. More inputs per second, the better the feeling of control.

Yes, of course. Polling for inputs is important. If they are too few the precision of control suffers. *But only if the game reads input from the controller less than once per frame*. Why? Because in that case your engine would draw "uncontrolled" frames, frames not affected by user input. That would be a problem because you'd see your car moving but it wouldn't react to your input.

Anyhow this is a misleading debate:

Reading data from the controller is not a problem with any game. Why? Because it is not a technical issue. You can read the controller 30 or 300 times a second with nearly no hit to the performance of the engine. No developer has problems with that. This can't be said of framerate. Obtaining 60 FPS while keeping the polygon count high is a real challenge.

In any case: All this thing about polling rate sounds like some are trying to distract people from the REAL facts: GT4 runs at 60 FPS and Forza at 30 FPS. Period. ¿Anyone knows the polling rate of GT4 vs Forza?

 

[Swift]

Yes, of course. Polling for inputs is important. If they are too few the precision of control suffers. *But only if the game reads input from the controller less than once per frame*. Why? Because in that case your engine would draw "uncontrolled" frames, frames not affected by user input. That would be a problem because you'd see your car moving but it wouldn't react to your input.

Anyhow this is a misleading debate:

Reading data from the controller is not a problem with any game. Why? Because it is not a technical issue. You can read the controller 30 or 300 times a second with nearly no hit to the performance of the engine. No developer has problems with that. This can't be said of framerate. Obtaining 60 FPS while keeping the polygon count high is a real challenge.

In any case: All this thing about polling rate sounds like some are trying to distract people from the REAL facts: GT4 runs at 60 FPS and Forza at 30 FPS. Period. ¿Anyone knows the polling rate of GT4 vs Forza?

Yep, but I wasn't trying to distract anyone, just making a general statement.

I was actully searching fo rthe polling rates of GT4, couldn't find any. But maybe I'm not sure how to search for it.

 

[Raf Laureys]

Has anyone played R:racing evolution I thought that was a good game. I dont care for the storyline and all but cool game.

Yeah, I've had a lot of fun with that game. Not for racing but for hotlapping. I also liked the way the cars react to the changes you make in the set-up. I read all the bad comments in the mags too but they're far to negative in my opinion. The biggest negative point of this game are the far too easy races due to the "nevous" AI but this game has very realistic physics, pretty similar to what GT 4 is going to offer (jugded by the BMW-demo). Also the steering is a bit to sensitive but it is a great and very, very underestimated "driving game". I hope Namco will come with a sequel without the storymode and with decent AI.

 

[tha_con]

Okay..this is retarded.

How many of you actually think that you would be able to tell the difference between 60 and 120 inputs per SECOND...seriously now....don't be stupid.

 

[monton1999]

Yep, but I wasn't trying to distract anyone, just making a general statement.

Sorry then.

 

[TigJackson]

Okinawa of Forzacentral.com has posted 27 outstanding new screens of microsofts Forza Motorsport, stop by and take a look.
http://www.forzacentral.com/forum/showthread.php?t=692

Every race has the potential to look like the Fourth of July with all those sparks flying around, and the track map that rotates......priceless....makes the player feel as if he is the center of the universe!

 

[code_kev]

Looking nice.

Also, I wasn't suggesting that having X input polls over X made a huge difference.

 

[Swift]

Tha_con, relax! Sheesh, all code and I are talking about is the importance of having a good amount of inputs per second.

And actually, yeah, I think I could tell between 60 inputs and 120 inputs per second. That's double the inputs for twice the precision and sensitivity. Why wouldn't someone be able to tell the difference?

 

[animateria]

Compressed pics just look bad (Not the game, the pics)

Anyways those sparks look way too big and squarish to me...

BTW what are those green and yellow arrow trails?

 

[Swift]

Okinawa of Forzacentral.com has posted 27 outstanding new screens of microsofts Forza Motorsport, stop by and take a look.
http://www.forzacentral.com/forum/showthread.php?t=692

Every race has the potential to look like the Fourth of July with all those sparks flying around, and the track map that rotates......priceless....makes the player feel as if he is the center of the universe!

What's the deal with the arrows on the track. I guess that's about following the racing line?

 

[TigJackson]

Hopefully, an Xbox has not been the cause of someone's house burning down.
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&ncid=738&e=1&u=/ap/20050217/ap_on_hi_te/xbox_recall

Microsoft is advising Xbox users to turn off their game players when not in use, until a new cord is delivered. Thankfully, only about 14.1 million of the approximately 20 million consoles sold to date pose a fire hazard, so that's a relief. Another good point is that it only affects those Xbox(s) that were manufactured before October 23, 2003, unless you bought yours in Europe, where the ticking time bombs of interest are those that were manufactured before January 13, 2004.

I'm signing up for my FREE replacement cord as soon as I can by letting them know that I nearly died from smoke inhalation when the carpet started smoking. Maybe I'll get to replace my Xbox, the one that came with the crappy Thompson Drive, to something that actually works more than half the time.

 

[tha_con]

Tha_con, relax! Sheesh, all code and I are talking about is the importance of having a good amount of inputs per second.

And actually, yeah, I think I could tell between 60 inputs and 120 inputs per second. That's double the inputs for twice the precision and sensitivity. Why wouldn't someone be able to tell the difference?

Okay, let's look at this really quick.

Your brain can register about 30FPS accurately, or so it is said. We can tell the difference between 60 and 30.

Now, lets say you have to swerve away from a car, or you have to make a slight adjustment.

If YOU think you can honestly tell the extremely minute difference between 60 inputs per second, and 120 inputs per second, that your reaction time is THAT precise to actually make good use of input that sends data that fast...then you my friend are superhuman.

Think about it. One second. Imaging counting to 120 in one second. Now imaging looking at a counter, that counts to 120 every second. Now imagine trying to pin point each time the counter hits say...57 (random number). How "accurate" do you think you are going to be? Now, the same goes for racing, imagine you see a car swerving your way, and you need to move, imagine how accurate you are going to be. It's the same. Regardless of how fast the controller works, your reaction time is going to be as fast as you can put in the input to the controller.

Point is, the difference between 120 inputs per second and 60 inputs per second is not drastic enough to make a huge difference, especially in a racing game. In fact, I can't think of ONE GAME that requires that kind of accuracy.

Maybe when we get clutch pedals (haha, right) on a Driving Simulator, then maybe it would be necessary (still wouldn't make much difference).

I'm not pointing out anyone, but it's a rediculous thing to compare, because the difference is so miniscule.

And it's useless to have so many inputs sent persecond if you can only display 30 frames per second. That's a big problem that many games have with "responsiveness"...the on screen frames do not match up with the input signal from the controller, so you cannot see the visual response to a controller input.

Having an equal number, going both ways, and in sync, is the ONLY way you will notice any difference. Period.

 

[tha_con]

What's the deal with the arrows on the track. I guess that's about following the racing line?

Yea, they are there as an aid, so that the driver can become accustomed to using brakes etc, they have gradual color changes, etc.

Sometimes you'll see it take a while to fade to another color, which means you use softer braking over long distance, while other times you'll see sudden changes, so you know to brake quickly and turn, etc. Pretty neat concept if you ask me.

 

[McLaren]

Thankfully, only about 14.1 million of the approximately 20 million consoles sold to date pose a fire hazard, so that's a relief.

How the hell is over half of the units sold posing a fire hazard a relief?