GT4 vs Forza [Let the battle begin]
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- 26,911
- Houston, Texas, USA
- JMarine25
For those of you who watch G4TechTV "X-Play," Adam Sessler and Morgan Webb previewed Forza Motorsport. Now for this thread, I was able to record a sound sample of the preview X-Play gave out for comparison. Now, this is going to be a pretty long reply to try to explain the Forza side of this rivalry, so I've outlined it in terms of before, during, and after the preview session. This is so we can know about the potential of this GT4/Forza rivalry. Read on. (LEGEND: AS- Adam Sessler; MW - Morgan Webb)
---Before Preview---
*MW: "Sony has a great driving game for the called 'Gran Turismo' for the PS2, and Microsoft creates a driving game called "Forza Motorsport" to compete with it on the XBOX."
*AS: "And since Gran Turismo 4 is only about... oh, I don't know... a DECADE late, Microsoft might just be poised to own the best racing game money can buy... if they can just get it to load first."
*MW: "Here is our preview of 'Forza Motorsport.'"
-Preview; Reviewer, Morgan Webb--- (ASI - Arnold Schwartz. Impersonator)
*MW: "The last taste of what we got of Microsoft's new internally-developed sim racer as at this past CES (Consumer Electronics Show). You may have heard about it. It didn't go so well."
*(CES Demonstrator): "I'ma try to do it quickly. Sorry. I'm out of system memory, apparentely. Uhh, yeah."
*MW: "But, forget the Blue Screen of Death. 'Forza Motorsport' is a bullet aimed straight at your geeked-out race'sr heart. While Forza has a bunch of top-notch features, there's one innovation that will make the saliva flow down the collective chins of all the gearheads- the Drivatar. The Drivatar is your adapted AI driver that aid you towards your push to racing greatness. Train your Drivatar, and you can make HIM run the boring races for you.
*ASI: "The Drivatar copies your driving technique to imitate your racing style. It's like a ??? processor. A living computer."
(moving on...)
*MW: "Even without an incredibly tantalizing AI feature, 'Forza Motorsport' is an uber racer. With 231 cars to unlock and race, Forza isn't so much a scapel carving away at some of the 'Gran Turismo' hide. It's a giant rock poised to smash the hide of Microsoft's dominated squash... The physics are incredibly realistic and absolutely unforgiving. Each car handles differentely and those drivers who don't d??? will lose. Every element of Forza is like a fork in the road, or 30 forks in the road. You may ask, 'do we NEED thousands of decal options?' Apparentely, yes. Winning races means winning credits. Then, it's just a trip to the garage, tune your painfully normal roadster into a truly terrifying speed demon.
(moving on...)
*MW: "In addition to the expected quick games online, Forza Motorsport's Career Mode will offer an XBOX Live version. We don't know yet HOW that will change from the regular offline career, but knowing XBOX Live, it's something we'll be looking forward to. With the garage that would put Howard Hughes (?) to shame, and an assessive amount of detail, Microsoft hopes he understands the meaning of racing."
(moving on...)
*MW: "When 'Forza Motorsport' hits the streets this Spring, we'll be there to give it a full test drive."
---After Preview---
*MW: "Well, once it actually loads without crashing, 'Forza Motorsport' is looking like stiff competition for Sony."
*AS: "...which might explain why after four years of delay, all of a sudden, 'Gran Turismo 4' is supposed to hit shelves THIS MONTH."
*MW: "Of course, GT doesn't have online play, and that may be where Forza Motorsport speeds past the driving franchise that helped put Sony on the map."
*AS: "We'll let you know when this races on to your XBOX later this year."
-end
---Before Preview---
*MW: "Sony has a great driving game for the called 'Gran Turismo' for the PS2, and Microsoft creates a driving game called "Forza Motorsport" to compete with it on the XBOX."
*AS: "And since Gran Turismo 4 is only about... oh, I don't know... a DECADE late, Microsoft might just be poised to own the best racing game money can buy... if they can just get it to load first."
*MW: "Here is our preview of 'Forza Motorsport.'"
-Preview; Reviewer, Morgan Webb--- (ASI - Arnold Schwartz. Impersonator)
*MW: "The last taste of what we got of Microsoft's new internally-developed sim racer as at this past CES (Consumer Electronics Show). You may have heard about it. It didn't go so well."
*(CES Demonstrator): "I'ma try to do it quickly. Sorry. I'm out of system memory, apparentely. Uhh, yeah."
*MW: "But, forget the Blue Screen of Death. 'Forza Motorsport' is a bullet aimed straight at your geeked-out race'sr heart. While Forza has a bunch of top-notch features, there's one innovation that will make the saliva flow down the collective chins of all the gearheads- the Drivatar. The Drivatar is your adapted AI driver that aid you towards your push to racing greatness. Train your Drivatar, and you can make HIM run the boring races for you.
*ASI: "The Drivatar copies your driving technique to imitate your racing style. It's like a ??? processor. A living computer."
(moving on...)
*MW: "Even without an incredibly tantalizing AI feature, 'Forza Motorsport' is an uber racer. With 231 cars to unlock and race, Forza isn't so much a scapel carving away at some of the 'Gran Turismo' hide. It's a giant rock poised to smash the hide of Microsoft's dominated squash... The physics are incredibly realistic and absolutely unforgiving. Each car handles differentely and those drivers who don't d??? will lose. Every element of Forza is like a fork in the road, or 30 forks in the road. You may ask, 'do we NEED thousands of decal options?' Apparentely, yes. Winning races means winning credits. Then, it's just a trip to the garage, tune your painfully normal roadster into a truly terrifying speed demon.
(moving on...)
*MW: "In addition to the expected quick games online, Forza Motorsport's Career Mode will offer an XBOX Live version. We don't know yet HOW that will change from the regular offline career, but knowing XBOX Live, it's something we'll be looking forward to. With the garage that would put Howard Hughes (?) to shame, and an assessive amount of detail, Microsoft hopes he understands the meaning of racing."
(moving on...)
*MW: "When 'Forza Motorsport' hits the streets this Spring, we'll be there to give it a full test drive."
---After Preview---
*MW: "Well, once it actually loads without crashing, 'Forza Motorsport' is looking like stiff competition for Sony."
*AS: "...which might explain why after four years of delay, all of a sudden, 'Gran Turismo 4' is supposed to hit shelves THIS MONTH."
*MW: "Of course, GT doesn't have online play, and that may be where Forza Motorsport speeds past the driving franchise that helped put Sony on the map."
*AS: "We'll let you know when this races on to your XBOX later this year."
-end
- 26,911
- Houston, Texas, USA
- JMarine25
So after about an hour of trying to keep playing back what I recorded on my PC, there is some Forza evidence to backup the side that Forza just might take down GT4. I'm not stating this like it's going to actually happen. I'm stating this to show some insight on the Forza side of this long-going argument in this thread. Do you think "X-Play" is telling the truth about this game? Will you buy this AND GT4? Which will you like better, and why? At least now, you know the other side of this battle.
And if you wish to answer another question for discussion, here's one. What will be the racing game battle of 2005?
(A.) Gran Turismo 4 vs. Forza Motorsport
(B.) Gran Turismo 4 vs. Enthusia Professional Racing
(C.) Forza Motorsport vs. Enthusia Professional Racing
(D.) Gran Turismo 4 vs. Forza Motorsport vs. Enthusia Professional Racing
And if you wish to answer another question for discussion, here's one. What will be the racing game battle of 2005?
(A.) Gran Turismo 4 vs. Forza Motorsport
(B.) Gran Turismo 4 vs. Enthusia Professional Racing
(C.) Forza Motorsport vs. Enthusia Professional Racing
(D.) Gran Turismo 4 vs. Forza Motorsport vs. Enthusia Professional Racing
- 958
- Manila
- meister_dan
JohnBM01
Definitely D.
- 1,620
I seriously don't know anything about Enthusia, other than it wants to be very realistic, and that it has a rather superflous "G" meter on the bottom of the screen and that the production values (going by my aesthetic opinion) aren't that crash hot. Can Konomi really do a full on simulator? It seems gimmicky to me, and no one knows anything solid about it. Don't know how serious Enthusia really is - seems like a really dark horse... Do we need a seperate Enthusia vs GT thread, or is it not important enough?
- 13
- LordOfDaNurburg
TriplePlay
I think that this is totally ridiculous.
Why? Well... you press buttons on your controller in response to things you see on screen. If the screen refreshes more often the game is giving you more information for you to press the right buttons on the controller (not to mention that the game feels smoother from a purely visual standpoint).
That's the reason why 60fps allows for more precise driving.
Is irrelevant to allow more controller inputs per frame since you don't have additional visual feedback during this period.
Anyhow, as someone else pointed out, nobody knows how many controller inputs per graphical frame GT4 allows.
- 2,461
James2097
you can learn about enthusia on their official site at http://www.konamistudio.co.jp/enthusia/
or read the dev interviews and watch the trailers at gamespot. Or find someone that's played it at TGS that was totally blown away.
Just because mainstream video game news sites don't care about it doesn't mean it sucks, because they're idiots that don't really care about driving sims. When's the last time you saw an article on IGN gushing about how awesome GTR is? They just shrug and say: "meh, some people like that sort of thing I guess..." and move on to another shooter preview. They write so much junk about Forza and GT4 because those are the BIG DOGS; the ones with a lot of publicity push and potential sales numbers.
James2097
I don't think there is any big difference in terms of 30 or 60 FPS. You hand / eye coordination is not fast enough to react differently at 60 FPS. I think it's only a missconception of racers. I have played many 60 and 30 FPS racers and I can tell you that there was no differences in the response of the vehicules. You can convince yourself there is a difference but honestly the differences is so minimal that it doesn't affect gameplay whatsoever.
*EDIT*
I bet I can make you play a 30 FPS game making you believe it was 60 FPS. You wouldn't be able to tell the difference
- 1,620
Kinigitt, everything you say is quite obvious. I have seem/read all those sources of info. Dev's interviews I feel are strangly biased for some reason... Also, for every good, promising impression I read about Enthusia, there is another that is negative about how the game is coming along. Hence my sitting on the fence in regards to Enthusia - I NEVER said it would be bad - I just admitted to not being positively taken by it in a definitive way so far. And yes I understand and happily ignore the mainstream gaming press. Thats another disscussion however.
People at this site obviously see Forza as the bigger threat to GT, given this thread... Thats sim fans, not IGN et all.
People at this site obviously see Forza as the bigger threat to GT, given this thread... Thats sim fans, not IGN et all.
- 2,461
James2097
to you maybe, but some people are thick. spend some more time here and you'll have to give up on using your brain half of the time to save on wear-and-tear.
James2097
that's pretty much only because they KNOW more about forza. konami stays mum on enthusia, which is frustrating and kind of cool at the same time.
it's best not to brag then blow people's socks off then mouth off and end up dissapointing fans due to hype.
- 1,620
Games do NOT stay perfectly at their target frame rates Symtex. 30FPS games do drop often into jerky territory (which kills it for me really). Thats PGR2 then. If its at 60, it will drop now and then just like the 30FPS game, however, it won't drop below what we percieve as smooth motion. Hence the game appears smooth all the time. If a game was LOCKED at 30FPS I would not have a problem. That's not the case with every game I know. They fluctuate. Hence 60FPS provides a very good safety margin to avoid stuttering. I can tell the difference between ANY game running at 30 and one at 60. 60FPS games have a certain arcade-perfect smoothness to them that is apparent when you compare against 30 fps games (IMPORTANT: ONLY AN AVERAGE FRAME RATE, they go higher, they also go lower, its a target), that are designed for a smooth frame rate 'most' of the time. Not ALL the time...
If you can't tell the difference between a 30 and 60fps game, then thats probably to your benefit as you'll be blissfully unaware, but many are bothered by it, and its a big deal to lots of people. Especially in a driving game.
If you can't tell the difference between a 30 and 60fps game, then thats probably to your benefit as you'll be blissfully unaware, but many are bothered by it, and its a big deal to lots of people. Especially in a driving game.
- 1,620
Hence my previous statement:
Do we need an Enthusia vs GT thread to help people become informed/interested in it? I would love to read a disscussion about Enthusia that covers the important aspects that sim racers are interested in... not just a glossy one line statement from a sleep deprived journo at TGS...
Something more in depth & concrete (as it becomes available) would rock, in regards to Enthusia. Our (gtplanet's community's) impressions should be worth much more than an average game journo's opinion.
- 2,461
James2097
there's already an enthusia thread. I know somebody on vwvortex forums that played the game quite a bit at TGS and was amazed at the driving physics, because he owns a mazda RX-8 said the one he drove the one in the game was spot on. He wouldn't shut up about the game.
anyway. *looks* at thread topic. go forza.
- 1,620
Believe you me, PGR2 is not locked at 30. Quite jerky in the replays when a car moves across the screen quickly. I can see the individual frames, and can count how many frames the car takes to get from one side of the screen to the other. Certainly it is possible to drive well in a 30fps game, but the extra polish and feel of 60fps makes me enjoy it so much more.
BTW don't bother to use NFS:U as a comparison. Its rubbish. Of course a solid framerate is more important than a wildly (and visibly) fluctuating one. You'de be nuts to choose a 30fps game over a 60fps one (when only framerate is the issue) when both have a fluctuation margin of say, 10 FPS either side of the target. Higher is better as a general rule.
BTW don't bother to use NFS:U as a comparison. Its rubbish. Of course a solid framerate is more important than a wildly (and visibly) fluctuating one. You'de be nuts to choose a 30fps game over a 60fps one (when only framerate is the issue) when both have a fluctuation margin of say, 10 FPS either side of the target. Higher is better as a general rule.
- 13
- LordOfDaNurburg
Symtex
Never. It's very easy to see the difference between 30 FPS and 60 FPS on screen.
If things move slowly on screen the differences are not so important, but they are very noticeable with fast moving subjects. That's the reason why a somoother framerate is very important for driving games.
An example:
You are driving the car on a very narrow street surrounded by walls. Suddenly you turn hard the wheel. On a 30 FPS game, the next frame you´ll be crashing into the side walls. On a 60 FPS game you'll have two extra frames of the car before crashing. It's clear that more FPS allows for more precision on turns and small trajectory changes.
This is a somewhat extreme example, but useful to make the point.
60 fps are VERY IMPORTANT for a driving simulator. The only reason Forza is 30 FPS is because the team didn't have the technical capabilities to make it 60 FPS, not because they thought that "gamers wouldn't be able to tell the difference".
- 89
But its a small deal to a lot more people. Seriously i only see couple of people on a thread complaining about 30 fps frame rate. other 98 percent of people either dont know about it or it doesnt bother them.James2097
- 3,802
Well the frame rate stuff is pretty obvious to most people now anyway.
I also never experienced any slow down half as bad as James said. I've had some slight stutters when theres 8 cars on screen at once, with the camera zoomed in, and all the trees swaying in the wind in the back ground, but thats it. But I forgive PGR2 for running at 30, because frankly it's one of the best looking games I've ever seen. Ever. The detail in that game is at times stunning, the fact you can look over sydney harbour and the whole bridge is in 3d (you can even see the damn bolts in it), stretching over a huge river (that ripples), with boats sailing, birds in the air etc etc. Even the shore line at the other side is 3d. Ridiculous.
. Just try that with an f40 (probs the best looking car in the game) and try and tell me THAT doesn't look awesome. If you say no, your a liar.
30 fps doesn't effect gameplay as such, it just effect how smooth the game feels, and oh boy, does it feel better at 60. It is a shame that forza runs at 30, as said before, 30 really isn't acceptable for this day and age.
I also never experienced any slow down half as bad as James said. I've had some slight stutters when theres 8 cars on screen at once, with the camera zoomed in, and all the trees swaying in the wind in the back ground, but thats it. But I forgive PGR2 for running at 30, because frankly it's one of the best looking games I've ever seen. Ever. The detail in that game is at times stunning, the fact you can look over sydney harbour and the whole bridge is in 3d (you can even see the damn bolts in it), stretching over a huge river (that ripples), with boats sailing, birds in the air etc etc. Even the shore line at the other side is 3d. Ridiculous.
. Just try that with an f40 (probs the best looking car in the game) and try and tell me THAT doesn't look awesome. If you say no, your a liar. 30 fps doesn't effect gameplay as such, it just effect how smooth the game feels, and oh boy, does it feel better at 60. It is a shame that forza runs at 30, as said before, 30 really isn't acceptable for this day and age.
- 13
- LordOfDaNurburg
Think about this:
If people can't tell the difference between 30 FPS and 60 FPS, why games developers keep making 60 FPS games?
With a 30FPS game the console has TWICE the time to draw the next frame allowing to put roughly twice the stuff on screen. Why not make prettier (more polygons) 30 FPS games instead of going for the magical "arcade-quality" 60 FPS.
As for the hand eye-coordination thing... Try playing an old-fashioned shooter (galaxians, for example) at less than 60 FPS. Absolutely unplayable. It's impossible to achieve the necessary precision to dodge the bullets playing at 30fps.
If people can't tell the difference between 30 FPS and 60 FPS, why games developers keep making 60 FPS games?
With a 30FPS game the console has TWICE the time to draw the next frame allowing to put roughly twice the stuff on screen. Why not make prettier (more polygons) 30 FPS games instead of going for the magical "arcade-quality" 60 FPS.
As for the hand eye-coordination thing... Try playing an old-fashioned shooter (galaxians, for example) at less than 60 FPS. Absolutely unplayable. It's impossible to achieve the necessary precision to dodge the bullets playing at 30fps.
- 3,315
Why do we even have this post in here (GT vs FORZA) we dont know anything about FORZA yet, or very little if any. I realy do hope that FORZA does make a few waves when it comes out because no matter what anyone says as of GT1 there has been anything even close to competing with GT NOTHING! and Im talking about racing not NFS or Midnight club or any other lame ass driving game out there, the only one I even have respect for is TOCA but that falls short as well. But since we are talking about game vs game there is a game out there I havnt heard anyone talk about here and I think its going to be a big time sleeper (Enthusia Professional Racing) I know one thing and that is Konami dones not make bad games!
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