GT4 vs Forza [Let the battle begin]

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kinigitt
Okay I'm bringing the framerate issue back because I need something clarified.

With a regular TV (one that doesn't support progressive scan), there are only 30 frames drawn per second. With a TV that supports progressive scan, however, it doubles to 60, as the lines are all drawn at the same time, instead of odds and evens, reducing the time it takes to draw a whole frame by half.

Wouldn't that make the framerate issue (60 vs. 30) kind of stupid, unless you have invested in an HDTV or play your games on a VGA monitor?

I could be misunderstanding this, but I still don't perceive the huge difference between the two.
I don´t think it works like this, cause you can see the difference between a 30fps and a 60fps game. It´s quite obvious to tell the difference actually.

And isn´t the human eye capable of see at 16fps or something? So if that was the case, games would not need to run faster than that.

But then again, I don´t really know what I´m talking about... :dunce:
 
code_kev
Saying forzas damaged model is no more advanced then GTA's is like saying GTA is as realistic is GT4 :P. Ridiculous.

Well from what we have seen of the damage, it isn't! It doesn't have punctures or combustion. You can flip a car in VC and it will damgage the roof...haven't seen that yet in Forza. Damage effects handling in VC, just like Forza...so whats the difference? You get smashed windscreens, dented panels, and panels flying off.

I'm not saying damage is a waste of time, but I can't see what makes you think Forza's damage is so special compared to all the other damage models out there including rally games etc.
 
SOOOOO let me get this right, the ps2 is twice as powerful but the games look worse. Oh yes, sure , great logic...

And I guess my p166 is better then my 2100 yeah?

Forzas damage is far more subtle then VC's parts fly off method. The damage also seems more detailed in forza, more realistic looking. Dents etc are far more subtle, ie it's not destroyed instantly. Damage also affects the cars in forza in a far more complex way then the "it shakes abit" and "goes abit slower", as done in VC.
I never made out that it was THAT special, hell I don't know much about it, but least it's in. :crazy:
 
OK PS2 is more powerful than XBox, it has been proven it's CPU is the best of the console 3, it's main problem is the other components it's partnered with, 4MB VRAM for example, their's an engineer or a actually a few of them discussing about PS3 and how it won't be possible to do what they (Sony) are saying, but then again people said the same about the PS2 and it was achieved (according to most engineers on this forum). This forum has a lot of people who are in the field and to read up on the stuff and information presented is interesting but sometimes way over the head of most people.

If the PS2 had more VRAM and some more improved parts, this engineer and others said it would easily do what the others can do.

Please note I am saying the CPU is the best as it's custom developed, but because of the components it's paired up with it can't really show it's full potential.

Now argue all you want.
 
code_kev
Forzas damage is far more subtle then VC's parts fly off method. The damage also seems more detailed in forza, more realistic looking. Dents etc are far more subtle, ie it's not destroyed instantly. Damage also affects the cars in forza in a far more complex way then the "it shakes abit" and "goes abit slower", as done in VC.
I never made out that it was THAT special, hell I don't know much about it, but least it's in. :crazy:

So it has more levels of animation and effects on handling, fair enough, Its still not true collision modelling though, that would be something to boast about :)

don't forget the "can't steer the f*ker" mode when you have two front flats :crazy:
 
Well,

That's like comparing a MAC 1ghz and a AthlonXP 2600+ with both the same video card, and they both gonna run games with the same frames. Now i've been comparing both consoles for the last couple weeks, and i've come to the conclusion that, PS2 = racing games + RPGs, and XBOX = Actions Games. I saw Project Gotham 2 on a HDTV and god, it looked so bad, the hud is ugly, the behind the car view is ugly as well, i really didnt like it. Cause i was actually considering buying either a xbox or a ps2. Now GT3 AND GT4 is a big plus to PS2 i think, and (since im a rpg lover) if you add the FF series, BoF etc.. its just awesome. (now to get back on topic) I saw some posts about the simulation thingy and crap like that, and i think its just plain retarded, if i want to drive a simulation game, im just gonna grab my keys and jump in my car, thats the best simulation i could get so far, and yea, it beats your GTR crap all the way mister code_kev. I play video games to kindda, escape reality, and that's the point of games.
 
Well let's see,
Playstation 2 Specs:
CPU - 128 bit Emotion Engine(Running at 294.912 Mhz)
Total Memory - 32MB RDRAM
Memory Bandwidth - 3.2GB per second.
Polygon Performance - 36 Million polygons per second
Graphics Processor - Graphics Synthesizer(147.456 MHz)

X-Box specs:
CPU - 733 MHz chip by Intel
Total Memory - 64MB DDRAM
Memory Bandwidth - 6.4GB per second
Polygon Performance - 125 Million per second
Graphics Processor - XGPU(250 MHz)

Now clearly you can see that the X-Box outperforms the PS2 in every departement.That's probably why it was released after the PS2.Microsoft saw the specs of the PS2 and increased theirs to make sure their console was more powerfull.
 
From the experts, people:

Copy and paste this to him and ask him if he has a degree in Comptuer Graphics then how does that make him a Hardware expert??

XBox vs. PS2

The CPU

Of course, the Central Processing Unit, the heart of every computer or console. Most of the calculations take place here. The XBox has a Intel processor which runs at a clock-speed of 733MHz. That's a lot higher than the 300MHz at which the PS2 CPU is running. But does that make the CPU better? Nope.

Here's why the PS2 CPU (Emotion Engine) is a lot more powerful:
-Data bus, cache memory as well as all registers are 128 bits on the PS2 CPU while the XBox CPU is 32 bits.
-It has a maximum performance of 6.2GFLOPS while the XBox CPU can only do a bit over 3 GFLOPS.
-It incorporates two 64-bit integer units (IU) with a 128-bit SIMD multi-media command unit, two independent floating-point vector calculation units (VU0, VU1), an MPEG 2 decoder circuit (Image Processing Unit/IPU) and high performance DMA controllers. Yes, this is all ON THE EMOTION ENGINE ITSELF.

Okay now what does this mean? It means that the PS2 can handle heavier physics and 3D engines (and can do more accurate realistic visual effects like splashing water and explosions). It also means that the PS2 can handle a lot more sophisticated Artificial Intelligence programming so that you have intelligent human-like opponents. And with a floating-point calculation performance of 6.2GFLOPS/second, the overall calculation performance of this new CPU matches that of a super computer. This is a completely new CPU architecture especially designed for sophisticated graphics and physics while the architecture of the XBox CPU is pretty old and simple and looks a lot like the architecture of the 486 CPU from back in the early '90s. The architecture of the Emotion Engine really is very sophisticated so I'm not going to explain it in detail here. But simply put the main advantage of the PS2 CPU is that it is subdivided into lots of other tiny powerful processors, all of them designed to do a special task and almost all of them can work independently from each other.

And another thing... the processor inside the box does not say "Pentium III" anywhere. It simply reads "Intel". The XBox's processor is NOT an Intel Pentium III, as Microsoft would have you believe, but in fact a Celeron II. It is a 700mhz Celeron, complete with 128kb of L2 cache (P3 coppermines actually have 256kb L2 cache), but overclocked to a 133mhz FSB, resulting in PIII/Celeron hybrid. What makes it a Celeron II is the fact that it is still using a Coppermine Core, with 8 way set associative L2 cache rather than your typical Celeron 4 way set Level 2 cache. What it ultimately comes down to is that this Coppermine core, which allows Microsoft to market the XBox as a PIII Coppermine, is about a 10% speed increase over the Celeron equivalent of this processor. Is the XBox CPU a Celeron? Not really. Is it a Pentium III CPU in the sense that everyone thinks of a PIII Coppermine? Nope. It's somewhere in between.

The Graphics Chip and VRAM

This is where the images are rendered. The XBox uses an Nvidia Graphics Processing Unit running at 250MHz and the PS2 uses the Graphics Synthesizer running at 150MHz. Again, judging by these specs the XBox looks better. The XBox GPU has a few advantages (or maybe not) over the PS2 GS, for example:

-The XBox GPU can do 125 million polygons while the PS2 GS can only do 75million polygons
-The XBox GPU has a max. Resolution of 1920x1080 and the PS2 GS can do 1280x1024 The rest of the graphics chip will be comparable to NV-20 chip, there are a lot of neat effects the XBox GPU can do with its hardware, but all those effects can be done by the Emotion Engine in software too (while the XBox' CPU is not powerful enough to do complex visual effects in software).

But the catch is that these advantages (talking about higher resolutions here) don't make a lot of difference on a TV screen, even on an HDTV screen the difference would be barely noticeable (when the console's hardware is used properly). So, is the XBox Graphics Processing Unit better than the PS2 GS? It doesn't look like it, the architecture of the PS2 GS looks far more advanced. For example, PS2 has a parallel rendering engine that contains a 2,560-bit wide data bus that is 20 times the size of leading PC-based graphics accelerators. The Graphics Synthesizer architecture can execute recursive multi-pass rendering processing and filter operations at a very fast speed without the assistance of the main CPU or main bus access. In the past, this level of real-time performance was only achieved when using very expensive, high performance, dedicated graphics workstations. There is a 48-Gigabyte/sec memory access bandwidth achieved via the integration of the pixel logic and the video memory on a single high performance chip. The quality of the resulting screen image is comparable to high quality pre-rendered 3D graphics. (that is once the game developers have learned how to use it properly) There has also been a misunderstanding about the VideoRAM on the PS2. The VRAM is included in the 32MB of main RAM on the CPU (the developer chooses how much of it he wants to dedicate to VRAM). Everyone thought the 4MB of memory on the GS was the VRAM while that is just a buffer in which all the rendering is done so no external bandwidth is needed (only for texture streaming). Another rumor that's been spread by several gaming sites is that the XBox is capable of texture compression and full scene anti-aliasing while the PS2 isn't. This is simply not true. The PS2 can compress/ decompress textures and do full scene anti-aliasing without causing as much slow-down as on the XBox. And although the XBox GPU can do a lot of effects that are not 'built-in' in the PS2 GS, the PS2 can do all these effects and more in software mode (but at least at the same quality) through the Emotion Engine.

Now let's take a look at how Microsoft got the idea that their graphics chip can do 125 million polygons...

The PS2's Graphics Synthesizer has the highest pixel fill rate of the next generation of consoles. Most remeber the 4.0 GPixels on Microsoft's spec comparence sheet. Well, Microsoft was nice to include a "(anti-aliased)" next to it. What does "4.0 GPixels (anti-aliased)", mean? It's misleading. The Xbox has hardwired 4x FSAA, when this is turned on the actual total of 1.0 GPixels is re-rendered 4 times to remove aliasing. Another possible reason for Microsoft to say Xbox's fill-rate is 4 GPixels per second. Is that the 1 GPixels is with 2 texture layers, if it is NOT used Xbox would not gain any performance and if it is used Xbox wouldn't lose any performance. It remains 1.0 GPixels w/ 2 textures, so what MS possibly did was it doubled the fill rate twice. Trying to compare it to PS2's fill rate w/ no texture. What MS did was it came up with misleading numbers. The Xbox can't go higher than 1 GPixels per second.

The NV2a in the Xbox has 4 pixel units running at 250 MHz, that's 1 billion pixels/second. While the GS in the PS2 has 16 pixel units running at 150 MHz, which is 2.4 billion pixels every second.

Now let's talk about polygons. Right here I'm talking about polygon rendering and not polygon transformations. To calculate polygon rendering performance, you take the pixel fill rate, and write it in millions. So PS2s pixel fill rate is 2400 Million. When Sony says polygons, it is referring to 32 pixel polygons. Divide 2400 Million by 32. You get 75 Million (32-pixel) polygons per second. That is raw and doesn't include textures, they use up pixels also. Now let's take Microsoft's alleged pixel fill rate of 4000 Million, which MS has on it's spec sheet and divide it by 32, you get, yes you guessed it, 125 Million (32 pixel) polygons per second. Here's the problem, the NV2a doesn't have a 4000 M fill rate but a 1000 M fill rate. So it's 31 Million (32 pixel) polygons per second. This isn't raw, since there's also 2 texture units for each pixel unit. So that's 31 million with 2 texture layers, the PS2 is around 38 Million with 1 texture layer and 20 million with 2 texture layers. The Xbox maxes out at 31 MPolygons per second, if textures aren't placed on those polygons- Xbox will not gain a polygon rendering increase in performance. The PS2's Graphic Synthesizer could render 75 MPolygons per second with no texture. The NV2a in the Xbox can't render higher than 31 MPolygons per second at all.

Okay now take that all into account and then check out the following...

"Is the XBox graphics chip the same as a GeForce 3 card? Not quite. The NV2A chip that powers the XBox is quite similar to the GeForce 3, but isn't quite a GeForce 3. The GeForce 3 is a 64mb card with 350mhz RAMDAC. The XBox's NV2A is a card that SHARES it's memory with the XBox's system RAM and has a 250mhz RAMDAC. The NV2A compensates for this by having a Second Vertex Shader, as opposed by the GeForce 3's single vertex shader. However, Microsoft claims that this second vertex shader instantly bumps the XBox's theoretical max poly count from the 31 million that Nvidia lists for the GeForce 3, all the way up to 125 million pps. According to most experts, the area that will actually see the most improvement from this will actually be in Bump Mapping. Microsoft has yet to explain how the second vertex shader yields an additional 94 million polygons per second."

I don't know enough to go more in detail about this but this is definitely an interesting point, and either way you turn it, it doesn't seem like the XBox has the advantage here.

I can understand that this is all a bit confusing if you're not a real tech-freak. It comes down to this: when developers have learned how to use the power of the PS2 GS properly they'll get a lot more out of it than XBox developers will get out of the XBox GPU. The PS2 GS combined with the EE can do a lot more advanced visual effects than the XBox GPU combined with its CPU.
 
^^hard facts people,ps2 is a gaming machine while xbox is a scaled down pc basically
now stop aruguing "is ps2 better than xbox" and go back to the topic:gt4 Vs forza
 
Check this out also, this is a more simplistic explanation, this is true btw, these people are engineers and have PhD's etc in computer engineering.

The fact is the PS2 is far far superior to the Xbox, now when you get a multiformat game its taken from a PC, its designed on a PC, if you straight port it to a PS2 the PS2 has a completely diffferent architecture so in a sense its actually emulating the game.

Everytime a game goes to both PS2 and XBox its running on the XBox but sort of being emulated on the PS2...

The maximum power they can use of the PS2 when they port a game is about 10-20%...

Read up on the CPU and youll see why.

I mean its like taking Windows XP and installing it on a Mac, it wouldnt work and even if they did somehow get it to work it would run so slow and inefficiently your Mac would be about a tenth of the performance criteria.
well stated, thats what no one understands that the PS2 has not even been fully utilized to many programmers are still tring to run it like a PC. PS2=6.2 Gflop but hard to write code for
eX-box=only 3.1 Gflop but has PC arcutexture so its simple and programmes already know what to do
Actually none of those games push PS2 100%, GT4 probably at 75%, you can tell it isnt using the VRAM to its potential.

Why XBox looks better.
But i came to the decision that the X-box can produce better graphics due to these things:
Graphic Effects Shadows, Pixel Shaders, Vertex Shaders, Bilinear filtering and Trilinear filtering
Some effects of those hardware can be done by software, but not all and not as good.
but...
The PS2 has a bigger bandwidth so memory wise its much better than the Xbox, only thing that really accelerates Xbox graphics is the 4xFSAA, if the PS2 had that it would look spectacular.
 
_aj
XBox vs. PS2

The CPU

Of course, the Central Processing Unit, the heart of every computer or console. Most of the calculations take place here. The XBox has a Intel processor which runs at a clock-speed of 733MHz. That's a lot higher than the 300MHz at which the PS2 CPU is running. But does that make the CPU better? Nope.

Here's why the PS2 CPU (Emotion Engine) is a lot more powerful:
-Data bus, cache memory as well as all registers are 128 bits on the PS2 CPU while the XBox CPU is 32 bits.
-It has a maximum performance of 6.2GFLOPS while the XBox CPU can only do a bit over 3 GFLOPS.
-It incorporates two 64-bit integer units (IU) with a 128-bit SIMD multi-media command unit, two independent floating-point vector calculation units (VU0, VU1), an MPEG 2 decoder circuit (Image Processing Unit/IPU) and high performance DMA controllers. Yes, this is all ON THE EMOTION ENGINE ITSELF.

Okay now what does this mean? It means that the PS2 can handle heavier physics and 3D engines (and can do more accurate realistic visual effects like splashing water and explosions). It also means that the PS2 can handle a lot more sophisticated Artificial Intelligence programming so that you have intelligent human-like opponents. And with a floating-point calculation performance of 6.2GFLOPS/second, the overall calculation performance of this new CPU matches that of a super computer. This is a completely new CPU architecture especially designed for sophisticated graphics and physics while the architecture of the XBox CPU is pretty old and simple and looks a lot like the architecture of the 486 CPU from back in the early '90s. The architecture of the Emotion Engine really is very sophisticated so I'm not going to explain it in detail here. But simply put the main advantage of the PS2 CPU is that it is subdivided into lots of other tiny powerful processors, all of them designed to do a special task and almost all of them can work independently from each other.

And another thing... the processor inside the box does not say "Pentium III" anywhere. It simply reads "Intel". The XBox's processor is NOT an Intel Pentium III, as Microsoft would have you believe, but in fact a Celeron II. It is a 700mhz Celeron, complete with 128kb of L2 cache (P3 coppermines actually have 256kb L2 cache), but overclocked to a 133mhz FSB, resulting in PIII/Celeron hybrid. What makes it a Celeron II is the fact that it is still using a Coppermine Core, with 8 way set associative L2 cache rather than your typical Celeron 4 way set Level 2 cache. What it ultimately comes down to is that this Coppermine core, which allows Microsoft to market the XBox as a PIII Coppermine, is about a 10% speed increase over the Celeron equivalent of this processor. Is the XBox CPU a Celeron? Not really. Is it a Pentium III CPU in the sense that everyone thinks of a PIII Coppermine? Nope. It's somewhere in between.

The Graphics Chip and VRAM

This is where the images are rendered. The XBox uses an Nvidia Graphics Processing Unit running at 250MHz and the PS2 uses the Graphics Synthesizer running at 150MHz. Again, judging by these specs the XBox looks better. The XBox GPU has a few advantages (or maybe not) over the PS2 GS, for example:

-The XBox GPU can do 125 million polygons while the PS2 GS can only do 75million polygons
-The XBox GPU has a max. Resolution of 1920x1080 and the PS2 GS can do 1280x1024 The rest of the graphics chip will be comparable to NV-20 chip, there are a lot of neat effects the XBox GPU can do with its hardware, but all those effects can be done by the Emotion Engine in software too (while the XBox' CPU is not powerful enough to do complex visual effects in software).

But the catch is that these advantages (talking about higher resolutions here) don't make a lot of difference on a TV screen, even on an HDTV screen the difference would be barely noticeable (when the console's hardware is used properly). So, is the XBox Graphics Processing Unit better than the PS2 GS? It doesn't look like it, the architecture of the PS2 GS looks far more advanced. For example, PS2 has a parallel rendering engine that contains a 2,560-bit wide data bus that is 20 times the size of leading PC-based graphics accelerators. The Graphics Synthesizer architecture can execute recursive multi-pass rendering processing and filter operations at a very fast speed without the assistance of the main CPU or main bus access. In the past, this level of real-time performance was only achieved when using very expensive, high performance, dedicated graphics workstations. There is a 48-Gigabyte/sec memory access bandwidth achieved via the integration of the pixel logic and the video memory on a single high performance chip. The quality of the resulting screen image is comparable to high quality pre-rendered 3D graphics. (that is once the game developers have learned how to use it properly) There has also been a misunderstanding about the VideoRAM on the PS2. The VRAM is included in the 32MB of main RAM on the CPU (the developer chooses how much of it he wants to dedicate to VRAM). Everyone thought the 4MB of memory on the GS was the VRAM while that is just a buffer in which all the rendering is done so no external bandwidth is needed (only for texture streaming). Another rumor that's been spread by several gaming sites is that the XBox is capable of texture compression and full scene anti-aliasing while the PS2 isn't. This is simply not true. The PS2 can compress/ decompress textures and do full scene anti-aliasing without causing as much slow-down as on the XBox. And although the XBox GPU can do a lot of effects that are not 'built-in' in the PS2 GS, the PS2 can do all these effects and more in software mode (but at least at the same quality) through the Emotion Engine.

Now let's take a look at how Microsoft got the idea that their graphics chip can do 125 million polygons...

The PS2's Graphics Synthesizer has the highest pixel fill rate of the next generation of consoles. Most remeber the 4.0 GPixels on Microsoft's spec comparence sheet. Well, Microsoft was nice to include a "(anti-aliased)" next to it. What does "4.0 GPixels (anti-aliased)", mean? It's misleading. The Xbox has hardwired 4x FSAA, when this is turned on the actual total of 1.0 GPixels is re-rendered 4 times to remove aliasing. Another possible reason for Microsoft to say Xbox's fill-rate is 4 GPixels per second. Is that the 1 GPixels is with 2 texture layers, if it is NOT used Xbox would not gain any performance and if it is used Xbox wouldn't lose any performance. It remains 1.0 GPixels w/ 2 textures, so what MS possibly did was it doubled the fill rate twice. Trying to compare it to PS2's fill rate w/ no texture. What MS did was it came up with misleading numbers. The Xbox can't go higher than 1 GPixels per second.

The NV2a in the Xbox has 4 pixel units running at 250 MHz, that's 1 billion pixels/second. While the GS in the PS2 has 16 pixel units running at 150 MHz, which is 2.4 billion pixels every second.

Now let's talk about polygons. Right here I'm talking about polygon rendering and not polygon transformations. To calculate polygon rendering performance, you take the pixel fill rate, and write it in millions. So PS2s pixel fill rate is 2400 Million. When Sony says polygons, it is referring to 32 pixel polygons. Divide 2400 Million by 32. You get 75 Million (32-pixel) polygons per second. That is raw and doesn't include textures, they use up pixels also. Now let's take Microsoft's alleged pixel fill rate of 4000 Million, which MS has on it's spec sheet and divide it by 32, you get, yes you guessed it, 125 Million (32 pixel) polygons per second. Here's the problem, the NV2a doesn't have a 4000 M fill rate but a 1000 M fill rate. So it's 31 Million (32 pixel) polygons per second. This isn't raw, since there's also 2 texture units for each pixel unit. So that's 31 million with 2 texture layers, the PS2 is around 38 Million with 1 texture layer and 20 million with 2 texture layers. The Xbox maxes out at 31 MPolygons per second, if textures aren't placed on those polygons- Xbox will not gain a polygon rendering increase in performance. The PS2's Graphic Synthesizer could render 75 MPolygons per second with no texture. The NV2a in the Xbox can't render higher than 31 MPolygons per second at all.

Okay now take that all into account and then check out the following...

"Is the XBox graphics chip the same as a GeForce 3 card? Not quite. The NV2A chip that powers the XBox is quite similar to the GeForce 3, but isn't quite a GeForce 3. The GeForce 3 is a 64mb card with 350mhz RAMDAC. The XBox's NV2A is a card that SHARES it's memory with the XBox's system RAM and has a 250mhz RAMDAC. The NV2A compensates for this by having a Second Vertex Shader, as opposed by the GeForce 3's single vertex shader. However, Microsoft claims that this second vertex shader instantly bumps the XBox's theoretical max poly count from the 31 million that Nvidia lists for the GeForce 3, all the way up to 125 million pps. According to most experts, the area that will actually see the most improvement from this will actually be in Bump Mapping. Microsoft has yet to explain how the second vertex shader yields an additional 94 million polygons per second."

I don't know enough to go more in detail about this but this is definitely an interesting point, and either way you turn it, it doesn't seem like the XBox has the advantage here.

I can understand that this is all a bit confusing if you're not a real tech-freak. It comes down to this: when developers have learned how to use the power of the PS2 GS properly they'll get a lot more out of it than XBox developers will get out of the XBox GPU. The PS2 GS combined with the EE can do a lot more advanced visual effects than the XBox GPU combined with its CPU.

Woah hold on a minute,

*look's up at the lot's of "Fact's"*

*Sweat's*

Well we are passionate today, this "was" supposed to be a Forza vs GT4 thread not a lecture on Advanced Console Spec's...

What it breaks down too, it's real easy to understand in fact so simple, I own a PC, it's primary function is gaming, doe's the fact my PC destroys your consoles in "ALL" area's make it a better gaming machine..

And I won't lie too you it DESTROYS those stats...

Now my PC is better OBVIOUSLY, now doe's that mean it has better game's.... uhhh NO !!! the only way to judge a "GAMING" machine is by it's game's I could not care less about untapped power etc.... it's the game's that make or break consoles now.... cettainly not UN-TAPPED power.... LMAO !
 
Front a fact about the PS2, it destroyed all PC's at it's time and a year later. Dwell on that if you will.

backup info
Powerwise they didnt, besides with the PS2 having 2 FPU's and a seperate GPU and VPU it was pretty much way ahead of graphics cards.

The GeForce 3 which came out a year after PS2 was kicking only 2 gigaflops and 29.5 million polys, the special tricks made it look more like 125, it was a third as power as the PS2.

The GeForce 4 still bowed down to the PS2 flops and polys wise but the special tricks again made it look a lot better.

It was the Geforce 5 before they got on par with the PS2... thats 3 years.
Plus the technology of PS2 is now being introduced into PC's. Check this nice little quote from an excited engineer.
It must be the "grass is always greener on the otherside" thing. you (nick)just some how always have something to say knocking the PS2 evin if its totaly wrong. (like the Xbox running MGS perfictly) i understand being objective but you take it to the Xtream. i realise many Xbox games lookbetter. thats a popular opinon but as hardware goes the PS2 realy is a Gem. the arcutexture of its interconnections is truly geinous 10X redundancey at the same time independant operations

I LOVE SONY FOR... the fact they have created new ideas in the PC world on how to make a better gaming computers for the first time in 13 years we are seeing new ideas in PC arcutexture like PCIE mimiking some of the enginering princibles of the PS2 like giving interconnectons priority rather than just Massive amounts of RAM. i just hate to see such a gem looked down upon cuz some guilded turd PC can make better screen shots
 
Front
Well we are passionate today, this "was" supposed to be a Forza vs GT4 thread not a lecture on Advanced Console Spec's...

I don't want to go down the road of comparing console specs, but I have to admit that half of that is nonsense.
Ok its easy to blind people with a load of numbers and specs, but since when does the size on an L2 cache affect graphics? Its the intermediate between the main memory and the control store on the chip...its a cost saving device, it would be FAR better to have a large high speed control store, not a cache, as you then need cache mapping algorithms to deal with what instructions should be processed next. Also what does "heavier physics" mean? Physics calculations are the application of mathematical equations, one chip is not better than another at it...it is merely the speed at which those calculations can be done that is a measure of performance...

If you run benchmarking software on the PS2 and the XBOX..the XBOX will always come out on top. _aj I don't know where you found your "expert" but I'm guessing he owns a PS2.

I'd rather see a published article on a reputable website before I accept rants as "Fact". I own a PS2 and think they are amazing, but you can't go claiming that it is more powerful than a newer higher spec machine :crazy:
 
_aj
Front a fact about the PS2, it destroyed all PC's at it's time and a year later. Dwell on that if you will.

I'd hardly say destroyed, well since i've been playing "ONLINE" since 1997, and during the PS2 release, I was too busy playing Counter Strike, probablly one of the best game's EVER simpily put people still play it today, so I was quite happy to wait and play catch up with the console's "Graphic Wise"

There's too many people who judge thing's by the way it look's you know the old saying "never judge a book by it's cover"

Graphics are ok, I generally look for great gameplay, it must be weird that someone frequents this board and care's more about gameplay rather than graphics *cough* Photomode *cough*

too sum up yeah the consoles destroy PC's when they come out but we're too busy playing bigger and better thing's !

edit

And too backup my gameplay over graphics, I play Ultima Online and still own my account which costs $15 p/m and that's 2D and i'd rather play that than the crap they call game's on some consoles !
 
The fact is no matter what gubbins the ps2 chip has, it's all worth nothing if it performs like it does. BTW I love the linked fanboy quote thing, the 5+ paragraphs of utter chaff. All those guys have is a PHD in bull****. I love how these people just can't accept that the xbox has more power, I mean it's fricking obvious to ANYONE, it's newer ffs, faster cpu, more ram, has proper 3d acceleration etc. I bet that articles from 2001 hahahaha, and wrote by some fanboy, quoting random specs. The proofs in the pudding, look at the games.

The ps2 was dated 6 months after it came out, don't talk crap about it out performing pcs 6 months later!
 
code_kev
The fact is no matter what gubbins the ps2 chip has, it's all worth nothing if it performs like it does.

Yep, its easy to quote a load of confusing stats about gigaFlops and the "magic" of the Emotion engine, but we've all seen it perform in reality.

My favourite bit was
Another rumor that's been spread by several gaming sites is that the XBox is capable of texture compression and full scene anti-aliasing while the PS2 isn't. This is simply not true. The PS2 can compress/ decompress textures and do full scene anti-aliasing without causing as much slow-down as on the XBox.

Full screen anti-aliasing without slow down :lol: Show me that game!!...even cobragt would admit there is a tiny problem with AA on the PS2.
 
Remember kids, older, slower machines are faster when your a fanboy! Just quote some random bollocks, stick it on a website, and a fellow fanboy shall quote you like it's fact!

PS2 4 EVA KIDZ
 
Hmm Pak I checked up on him and it seems he was annoying but there are also other members there who agreed with him and said he had and were putting forward their own valid points and generally have a technial discussion. He has also since been banned which I never noticed, so shame on me (lol), he either does a lot of reading or does know somethings about computer engineering as a few people on other forums have agreed on some of his points but not all (the AA) for example. The fact I posted the quotes is because the forum is quite well respected and has a very good community with knowledge being passed and exchanged between the members.

So yeah I can admit I was wrong, I should have probably checked up on the details more than I did, I did actually double check on several forums, (one being in beijing) which again agreed on certain aspects but not all. I have however read up on the fact the PS2 is not being used at it's optimum and we may never see it at's it optimum as most developers are happy wth having some degree of control and knowledge of how to Hautilize it, but do not want to try and expand on this.

It's been a good laugh actually as we have seen some truly hardcore XBoys show themselves. (No names they know who they are)

So go for it people, rip me apart, I know I was wrong and I admit it, have fun cause I can laugh at myself and my mistakes, I'll feel stupid and an idiot for a while and I'm sure there'll be people who will use this for a long time against me (even when it's not funny anymore).

:) :dopey: :dopey: :dunce: :dunce: :dopey: :) :crazy: :banghead: :guilty: :lol: :lol: :D

NOTE: 75% of the quotes were from this guy.
 
_aj
So go for it people, rip me apart, I know I was wrong and I admit it, have fun cause I can laugh at myself and my mistakes, I'll feel stupid and an idiot for a while and I'm sure there'll be people who will use this for a long time against me (even when it's not funny anymore).
:lol: Its a brave man who can admit he's wrong :) I won't mention it again

I'm sure the guy knew about hardware...but he was certainly biased...by a country mile..and blind to the obvious too :lol:
 
kinigitt
Okay I'm bringing the framerate issue back because I need something clarified.

With a regular TV (one that doesn't support progressive scan), there are only 30 frames drawn per second. With a TV that supports progressive scan, however, it doubles to 60, as the lines are all drawn at the same time, instead of odds and evens, reducing the time it takes to draw a whole frame by half.

Wouldn't that make the framerate issue (60 vs. 30) kind of stupid, unless you have invested in an HDTV or play your games on a VGA monitor?

I could be misunderstanding this, but I still don't perceive the huge difference between the two.

If I remember correctly, Regular TV's used interlaced signals, which do run at 30fps, however since they are "interlaced" it's two frames during a transition, and it "simulates" 60fps, but the difference is still noticable. Progressive scan does not provide a huge difference in frame rate appearance on any television, nothing noticeable. Also, Progressive scan will not "double" the frame rate, it will simply show all 30 frames in a second in a clearer crisper format, rather than a standard interlaced signal.
 
tha_con
If I remember correctly, Regular TV's used interlaced signals, which do run at 30fps, however since they are "interlaced" it's two frames during a transition, and it "simulates" 60fps, but the difference is still noticable. Progressive scan does not provide a huge difference in frame rate appearance on any television, nothing noticeable. Also, Progressive scan will not "double" the frame rate, it will simply show all 30 frames in a second in a clearer crisper format, rather than a standard interlaced signal.

good to know. 👍

I hope you're right, I may quote you. :)
 
Seem's now that recently you need a PHD in Physic's, Math's, Electrical Engineering, BEFORE you even play the game...

*sighs* what happened to the "golden" age of gaming when gaming was fun and your fun was not determained by a bunch of number's

oh well...
 
Front
Seem's now that recently you need a PHD in Physic's, Math's, Electrical Engineering, BEFORE you even play the game...

*sighs* what happened to the "golden" age of gaming when gaming was fun and your fun was not determained by a bunch of number's

oh well...

NES and Sega Genesis systems are falling apart by now.

You could always play some dreamcast, or to a lesser extent, gamecube.
 
kinigitt
good to know. 👍

I hope you're right, I may quote you. :)

No problem, I'll post again later, I know there's just a bit more too it, but basically thats the jist of it.

Also, forza is "supposed' to have some new technology that they used to interlace frames which is "supposed" to give it the appearance of somewhere near 200fps, which I believe is a huge exageration on the developers part, but I do believe it will "appear" to run at 60 fps, but the difference should be noticeable to those blessed with high res tv's etc.
 
tha_con
No problem, I'll post again later, I know there's just a bit more too it, but basically thats the jist of it.

Also, forza is "supposed' to have some new technology that they used to interlace frames which is "supposed" to give it the appearance of somewhere near 200fps, which I believe is a huge exageration on the developers part, but I do believe it will "appear" to run at 60 fps, but the difference should be noticeable to those blessed with high res tv's etc.

which would include me. I've noticed games look very good in progressive scan, so I took the plunge.
 

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