GT4 vs. GT3- which is better?

[Digital-Nitrate]

GT4 = More Challenging; More Content; Nurb, Le Sarthe I & II, Suzuka, Fuji, Twin Ring, Infinieon; 24hr Enduros; Much Better Grand Prix Series; Improved Graphics; 1080i Output; Photomode; etc.

I'm not going to argue physics until I have back-up, but why do you say that? In my opinion the A.I. hit an all-time low simply because PD turned off the rubber-band part of the A.I., just leaving mindless twits behind.

The "rubber-band" AI in GT3 was completely unrealistic. Real racing involves slower lapped cars... even with yellow flag pace cars.. which GT4 obviously doesn't have.

As an added bonus, GT4 includes a wider selection of AI cars for many of the events, thus offering more fields of AI cars to chose from. This in turn gives the player the opportunity to dictate the closeness of the race.

It must be said that most of the new cars are either copies of each other (see the nearly 60 Skylines) or completely useless in racing (Model T, Nike One, Daihatsu Midget, etc.).

Why must it be said, considering it isn't even true? Are some of the cars similar? Certainly... but there is a big difference between being a copy and being similar. Are there some "useless cars" in GT4? Clearly you feel that way, but others may enjoy playing around with the "special cars"... some even seem to enjoy doing laps on the Nurb with them.

Of course, if you can list which of the ~600 new cars account for what you consider to be copies and useless in racing, and that list represents most of those ~600 cars then I will gladly stand corrected.

Personally, I am impressed with the subtle differences between even the Skylines, but even the similar Skyline GT-Rs represent less than 5% of the new cars in GT4... and I believe that's the largest collection of similar speced same model cars in GT4.

 

[Tornado]

The "rubber-band" AI in GT3 was completely unrealistic. Real racing involves slower lapped cars... even with yellow flag pace cars.. which GT4 obviously doesn't have.

I know that it is completely unrealistic, and I hope that I didn't come off as sounding like the A.I. was more realistic. However, it is far more fun if only because you are always battling the A.I. no matter what car you enter, in relation to having to enter a drastically underpowered car to make the race competetive, and there is also no rediculous back marker in GT3 (ie. Corvette C5R at Infineon Enduro, GT40 at Le Sarthe II). Because of how poor the A.I. is in GT4 without the rubber band crap makes the game more fun in some cases to use B-Spec to see how the A.I. reacts to Bobby.
You're point on the A.I. selection is true of course, but what do you mean by the player dictating the selection of the race?

Are there some "useless cars" in GT4? Clearly you feel that way, but others may enjoy playing around with the "special cars"... some even seem to enjoy doing laps on the Nurb with them.

You'll note that I said "for racing" for that very reason. I will admit that I enjoy having fun with the Plymouth Prowler in arcade mode, but I'm annoyed by it's uselessness in Sim mode, especially since you can't use the cars you own in Sim mode in arcade mode anymore.

Of course, if you can list which of the ~600 new cars account for what you consider to be copies and useless in racing, and that list represents most of those ~600 cars then I will gladly stand corrected.

It will take me a while to compile, but some examples would be like how it went from 2 R34 Skylines to 12 (one of them being merely a color change, not including cars not tunable at Nissan), and the multiple copies of JGTC car (like the multiple '00 NSX's and '01 NSX's).

 

[Wolfe]

On the topic of repeats in the car selection, last year I made a condensed list of the cars in GT4, grouping all models that shared the same chassis and basic body together (even including racecar versions in the same group as their road-going counterparts).

In doing so, I chopped down the number from 750 to 379. Even if I had been less strict in grouping cars together, 500 is most likely an optimistic number for the amount of truly unique cars.

For anyone interested, the post is here.

And the wheelspin seems pretty logical to me. You can't expect to hit full throttle in any car with more than 5-6-700 bhp in first gear and expect the tires to grip perfectly. Even R5's can't do that in GT4, and that's all good.

You're completely missing the point, which was that wheelspin doesn't create any lateral motion (which is required to make Cobras and TVRs scary) and, for whatever reason, doesn't possess the correct properties to allow a car to carry the momentum of a drift through a corner properly.

Rather than repeat discussions that Wolfe and I have had many, many times over I'm simply going to provide a link to the following thread...

Good idea. You and I already understand each other's positions anyway.

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

On the topic of repeats in the car selection, last year I made a condensed list of the cars in GT4, grouping all models that shared the same chassis and basic body together (even including racecar versions in the same group as their road-going counterparts).

Except that there is a great deal more to a car's performance and characteristic than just the chasis and basic body design. However, even if you ignore that and focus only on chasis and body style, there are still vastly more unique cars in GT4 than GT3.

I know that it is completely unrealistic, and I hope that I didn't come off as sounding like the A.I. was more realistic. However, it is far more fun if only because you are always battling the A.I. no matter what car you enter

Good point, so in terms of having a better chance at a close finish, I completely understand what you are saying.

and there is also no rediculous back marker in GT3 (ie. Corvette C5R at Infineon Enduro, GT40 at Le Sarthe II).

Well there also isn't even an Infineon or Le Sarthe enduro in GT3.... That's one more reason to prefer GT4. Also... no one is forced to accept a field of AI cars on those races that include either of those cars. Simply reset the field until it has a field of AI cars that perform near the same level. This isn't hard to do for these events. However, for those that want to include GT1/2 cars in the AI field to add realisim to racing a Le Mans style race, then that's yet another reason to praise GT4 for offering that option to include them in the pool of possible AI cars for those types of events.

You're point on the A.I. selection is true of course, but what do you mean by the player dictating the selection of the race?

Just as I said above, with events that have a wide pool of AI cars, by resetting the field it allows the player a great deal of control over the quality of the AI cars selected.

I will say that there are a few things I prefer with GT3, which is also why I still own it, but for me, there are too many extras that GT4 offers that makes it an obvious winner by comparrison. 👍

 

[sucahyo]

In doing so, I chopped down the number from 750 to 379. Even if I had been less strict in grouping cars together, 500 is most likely an optimistic number for the amount of truly unique cars.[/URL].

Great job for condensing 👍. I find there are 981 (carlist2.txt) different name assigned for 730 car (carlist.txt). I post the file in https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=2469676#post2469676

 

[Zer0]

Naw, spinning out is easy. All you have to do is make an innocent attempt at a drift with the Dual Shock 2. As soon as you countersteer, your front tires will grab the pavement with a ferocity never seen before in any other Gran Turismo game, pulling your car out of the drift with herculean force and -- if your reaction time is even a split-second off -- throwing it into an inescapable spin in the opposite direction. The effect is less pronounced with the Driving Force Pro, but still a factor.

I've spun out many times in GT4 because of this unrealistically-dangerous over-correction phenomenon,

 

[Fizio]

Great point Zer0...👍

 

[Tornado]

Just as I said above, with events that have a wide pool of AI cars, by resetting the field it allows the player a great deal of control over the quality of the AI cars selected.

Okay. I thought you meant that there was a way to individualy select the field, and it made me wonder whether you knew something I didn't know.
As an aside, whatever happened to the way you said you knew how to trick the V16 Auto Union into being raced in races?

Not knowing what the first car was I cannot comment on it. However, the second car was an Audi A4. So if it wasn't 4WD, it would be FF, which means it would pull out of a drift like that.

 

[Scaff]

Not knowing what the first car was I cannot comment on it. However, the second car was an Audi A4. So if it wasn't 4WD, it would be FF, which means it would pull out of a drift like that.

Just being (possibly) a FF does not mean it would have to pull out of oversteer like that at all, it could happen with any drivertrain type.

Its perfectly possible for a FWD car to exit oversteer in a very smooth and controlled manner, and its just as possible for a RWD car to 'fishtail' in the manner if the driver poorly controls oversteer correction.

Dynamic behaviour of this nature is not limited to a particular drivetrain type, but rather to the drivers ability to correct and control oversteer.

Regards

Scaff

 

[Tornado]

Just being (possibly) a FF does not mean it would have to pull out of oversteer like that at all, it could happen with any drivertrain type.

But doesn't being FF or AWD mean that, as the front wheels have power, if you were to apply throttle in a drift the car would pull out of that drift rather quickly?

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

Okay. I thought you meant that there was a way to individualy select the field, and it made me wonder whether you knew something I didn't know.

That would be the best though, if the game would give the player the option to individually sellect each of the AI cars for every race! 👍 👍

I tried for a long time to get a field for the Le Sarthe I enduro that included all the LMP1 AI cars (R8, LMR, C60/J, C60/P), but after having reset the field countless times over a long period of time I finally gave up. I did however get a nice field that included three of those four, plus the GT-One and Speed 8, so at least I had a full field of modern LMP cars.

As an aside, whatever happened to the way you said you knew how to trick the V16 Auto Union into being raced in races?

I forgot about that project. What I know for sure is that I discovered a code for use with a GameShark, that allows the Auto Union to be entered in any race that it qualifies for, and I verified this a while back by entering it in all of those races. Unfortunately I have not yet been able to unlock the other "special cars" as of yet... but I have been very busy lately so I haven't spent any time on it for the last few weeks.

I'll post the code in the Auto Union thread by tomorrow for those interested.

 

[GT4_Rule]

I find that in GT4 it is way easier to wipe out and to a 360 over and over again. I suffered nearly 30 spin-outs during my 24hour Le Sarthe race caused by many factors, such as one side of the tires running on grass and one side on the pavement; too much throttle during the rough corner; or simply because of rapid braking from high speeds. These wipeouts nearly cost me wins in many rally and road races. This wasn't evident in GT3.

 

[Scaff]

But doesn't being FF or AWD mean that, as the front wheels have power, if you were to apply throttle in a drift the car would pull out of that drift rather quickly?

Yes but as a throttle is not an on/off switch, power can be applied quickly but smoothly and an oversteer situation exited in a smooth controlled manner. Hence the reason I use the world could not would.

Your statement seems to imply that the driver has no choice in the matter and that an exit of this manner is inevitable, were as it still a case of how the driver controls the car itself.

To me you also seemed to be implying that this type of dynamic behaviour is limited to certain drivetrain types, which again is not the case.

Regards

Scaff

 

[ChampCarFan]

That would be the best though, if the game would give the player the option to individually sellect each of the AI cars for every race! 👍 👍

umm i dont think so because then most people would just choose the slow cars.

 

[Wolfe]

Yeah, that's called over-correction, what about it? I could post many more videos of people successfully countersteering in real life without fishtailing or spinning out.

GT4's steering is so sensitive that it's unrealistically difficult to avoid replicating what you saw in those videos. Also, the momentum that is required to successfully carry a drift through a corner is difficult to find...finding the momentum to get a car to spin out from letting the tail slide too far during a drift is even harder.

I've made a video to illustrate most of the things I'm talking about in this thread...it's still uploading, so I'll post it here later tonight.

 

[Zer0]

Yeah, that's called over-correction, what about it? I could post many more videos of people successfully countersteering in real life without fishtailing or spinning out.

GT4's steering is so sensitive that it's unrealistically difficult to avoid replicating what you saw in those videos.

It's called "Snap Oversteer" and can be corrected by an experienced driver, same as GT4. I don't have any problem with this and I'm an average GT4 driver.

Another example:
http://www.s2kca.com/photopost/data/500/572TheSpin.mpg

 

[Smallhorses]

umm i dont think so because then most people would just choose the slow cars.

Not necessarily.

PD is caught in a terrible quandry here....

Look at the number of threads about people stuck on GT World Championship. Many folks would complain that this and some of the missions make the game too hard, even though they're attempting to blitz the field in a stage 4 turbo'd Minolta Toyota 88C-V. Most likely these are folks that are gamers, they want to get this game finished, complete at 100% as quickly as possible, whatever it takes, so they can move on to the next game, etc., etc.

So what should PD do? Make the game easier? Get less complaints? No!

Why? Because there's tonnes of folks out here, myself, Wolfe2x7 and Digital-Nitrate amongst them, who want a racing game. And I mean racing as in being closely matched with your opponents and needing a requisite amount of driver skill, tactics and concentration to pull off the win.
Not a "race" that so often occurs in GT4, where you, or one of the AI enter a car in an event which leads to annhiliation of all other competitors. If you're driving way out in front on your own, and the only time you encounter the AI is to lap them, it's not racing.

They have to keep everyone entertained. They can't make all events as easy to win as the Sunday Cup or we'll get bored. They can't make every event as hard as GT World Championship or as long as the 24 hour races or gamers will be turned away by the difficulty.

They made concessions this time by adding the easy "cheat" (for want of a better word) in B-spec mode, which makes it possible for folks to get the game over and done with faster, and move on.

That said, I'm happy with GT4, it's taken me well over a year, I'm still not complete, and I don't play any other games. Why? I simply try and find a race for every car & situation. I've A-specced the lot, now I'm a little over 95% complete, GT World Championship even against the hardest lineup I could find was not overly difficult for 131 A-spec points per race in a stock Bentley Speed 8, so I'd have liked the opportunity of picking my AI lineup to get something harder, without having to cycle through 106 different random lineups and still not get what I was after. It's a system that would be open to abuse, as pointed out, some folks would just pick the slowest lineup they can find, race 1 A-spec point races all day long, and blow through the game in days. Fine if you like that sort of thing, but these are usually folks who'll happily complain then about the lack of value for their $50.
Myself, I'm glad my wife spent the $50 for me, and I'm going to keep finding challenges, hit 100% and ask myself then, who got the better deal? The guy who got the game (US Version) back in March 2005 and was finished, mostly B-spec by April? Or me, with what I've done? I win!

PD had to compromise to keep all round appeal, and in making compromises, someone somewhere will not be as happy as someone somewhere else!

 

[Tornado]

It's called "Snap Oversteer" and can be corrected by an experienced driver, same as GT4. I don't have any problem with this and I'm an average GT4 driver.

What do you think causes "Snap Oversteer?" Overcorrection, which is and always will be far too easy to accomplish in GT4 regardless of how you play the game, but it is even worse on the DS2; or poor chassis balance à la Ferrari 348 GTB. And you can't tell me that every car in GT4 has a poor chassis balance, which leads me to conclude that GT4 is overly sensitive.

 

[Wolfe]

What do you think causes "Snap Oversteer?" Overcorrection, which is and always will be far too easy to accomplish in GT4 regardless of how you play the game, but it is even worse on the DS2; or poor chassis balance à la Ferrari 348 GTB. And you can't tell me that every car in GT4 has a poor chassis balance, which leads me to conclude that GT4 is overly sensitive.

Exactly my thoughts. 👍

Here's the video I promised earlier:



The text can be a bit hard to read at times, but I think you can all get the general idea.

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

umm i dont think so because then most people would just choose the slow cars.

Smallhorses gave an excellent answer already, but I'll also add that by empowering each player to customize the gameplay as much as possible allows for a much more engading game that can be fine tuned to each player's gameplay, and can be adjusted to meet whatever interest they might have at that time.

Fortunately, GT4 does this in several ways already. Not only can you fine tune each car, and for many events you can use a wide variety of different cars. In addition, for Family Cup races you can widely vary the quality of the AI competition, and in most races, the AI has a wide selection of cars in the selection pool, so by resetting the field, you can also control to some point the type and quality of the competion.

However, if they had also allowed the player to hand pick all 5 AI cars from each pool of cars that qualify for that race, it would have been soo much better! Personally, I would love to have the opportunity to race against 5 AI R8's on Le Sarthe, or maybe 2 R8s, 2 C60, and a V12 LMR... that would be a great race! Unfortunately, neither is possible without being able to select your opponents.

As far as those who might select 5 weak opponents, that in itself doesn't mean anything, as they could still have a very challenging race if they also select a car for themselves that only performs at the same level.

However, even for those that simply like to dominate a race, and would always select the weakest AI cars while at the same time using a vastly superior car... well guess what... that's their preogative. Afterall, you can do that now, and judging by many of the posts made on this forum about always wanting the FASTEST car for any given race, that's what a lot of players like to do. And while I and others would find that terribly boring, I am not about to suggest they are wrong in doing what pleases them.

At the end of the day, the more options and settings a game has, the more players will be able to customize the gameplay to maximize their enjoyment. It also offers each player multiple strategy levels depending on how they take advanatge of the options and settings in the game.

Gaming has come a long way since PAC-MAN, and that's a good thing!

 

[Uncle Harry]

GT4 is better.

 

[sucahyo]

Since people say that you can feel load transfer better in GT4 than GT3, I vote GT4.

 

[Zer0]

What do you think causes "Snap Oversteer?" Overcorrection,

"So for example if a car is driving hard and understeering, the driver maybe tempted to take his foot off the accelerator (increasing steering effectiveness of the front wheels as there is no engine torque to deal with) causing the car to snap oversteer and spin, often without warning."

http://www.answers.com/topic/understeer

Wolfe2x7 good work you made GT4 look less realistic than NFSU.

 

[Tornado]

"So for example if a car is driving hard and understeering, the driver maybe tempted to take his foot off the accelerator (increasing steering effectiveness of the front wheels as there is no engine torque to deal with) causing the car to snap oversteer and spin, often without warning."

That's a common misconception. That phenomenon is known more commonly as lift-throttle oversteer, but it is incorrectly known as snap-oversteer in more extreme cases. What happens as that the rear springs/suspension in general goes completely rigid as their is no more travel left, when you let off of the gas the weight on the rear tires unloads onto the front, helped along by the compressed rear suspesion and it drags the car along with it. In most cases I've found this is not what the problem is in GT4.

True snap oversteer is when you countersteer your car too much while oversteering. It boils down like this:
The car oversteers, you countersteer, but as the inside tires lifts the suspension geometry causes the wheel to toe-out. Once the car catches grip and flings you back it will snap you into a big oversteer the other way (rather than just catching and putting you in the direction your front wheels are pointed). This happens when you countersteer too fast or too much.
Honda's original S2000, ironically, suffered from both. As did the Ferrari 348 and Toyota MR2 SW20, but for a completely different reason.

 

[Wolfe]

I was under the impression that "snap-oversteer" referred to any strong oversteer that occurred suddenly. In any case, lift-off oversteer isn't strong enough in GT4, just like braking oversteer, which is similar. Not that it's anything new -- GT3 didn't do it right either.

It might have something to do with how both games seem to have little understanding of weight transfer, or weight in general, as is evident by the artificial-looking suspension movement.

 

[Scaff]

That's a common misconception. That phenomenon is known more commonly as lift-throttle oversteer, but it is incorrectly known as snap-oversteer in more extreme cases. What happens as that the rear springs/suspension in general goes completely rigid as their is no more travel left, when you let off of the gas the weight on the rear tires unloads onto the front, helped along by the compressed rear suspesion and it drags the car along with it. In most cases I've found this is not what the problem is in GT4.

Can I just clarify what you are saying here, as its not 100% clear to me.

It seems to read as if you are saying that suspension settings have an effect on the degree of longitudinal (front/rear) load transfer, which is quite simply not true.

Suspension settings do not effect the load transferred front to rear in situations like this, what they will do is effect the amount the car moves under load transfer (in general terms the springs determine how far the car moves and the dampers how quickly it moves) and how that load is then distributed between the tyres at each end.

Quite a few threads on this subject already exist in the tuning and settings thread.

I was under the impression that "snap-oversteer" referred to any strong oversteer that occurred suddenly. In any case, lift-off oversteer isn't strong enough in GT4, just like braking oversteer, which is similar. Not that it's anything new -- GT3 didn't do it right either.

It might have something to do with how both games seem to have little understanding of weight transfer, or weight in general, as is evident by the artificial-looking suspension movement.

I would have to agree Wolfe that "snap-oversteer" is a generic term, and can be used to describe a number of different situations and I would personally agree with it being a catch-all for the rapid onset of oversteer. I have to say that in every racing and vehicle dynamics text I have read the term is conspicuous by its absence.

I totally agree that lift-off oversteer is not strong enough in GT4 (as we have discussed before) and in regard to braking oversteer, particularly in regard to vehicle instability when braking from high speed, I am yet to come across a game/sim that gets this right.

I can't however agree that both games have little understanding of weight transfer, or weight in general. Now don't take that as me saying that GT3/GT4 recreate this well, just that I don't think its as bad as is sometimes made out.

It does raise an interesting discussion that I have had a number of times with sucahyo, in that I find the GT series quite poor when it comes to being able to easily judge suspension reaction and behaviour visually. What you feel and see when driving often is not well represented visually, this is particularly clear when you are tuning a car using FC suspension.

Again this is an area that I feel few games do well, GT4 is generally too stiff in its visual aspect for road cars (but more visually accurate for race cars), as you quite rightly observe its almost as if the cars have all had a slight suspension upgrade. To put this in context I find that EPR has almost the opposite problem, in that the suspension moves too smoothly, and while this looks almost right for road cars, it does look very strange on the race cars.

Regards

Scaff

 

[Tornado]

Can I just clarify what you are saying here, as its not 100% clear to me.
It seems to read as if you are saying that suspension settings have an effect on the degree of longitudinal (front/rear) load transfer, which is quite simply not true.

No, no. I'll be able to explain this better when I get on my own computer, but I'm trying to say that when the car is understeering the rear springs compress, and when you let off of the gas they uncompress and the front springs compress, putting more weight on then front tires; however, the same effect would occur if the wheels were bolted directly to the frame. The suspension is just used as a visualisation to help explain the weight transfer occuring when you let off the gas.
When I get home I can show you the website that explains this, because I was trying to explain what that website said and it appears I did it poorly.

 

[Scaff]

No, no. I'll be able to explain this better when I get on my own computer, but I'm trying to say that when the car is understeering the rear springs compress, and when you let off of the gas they uncompress and the front springs compress, putting more weight on then front tires; however, the same effect would occur if the wheels were bolted directly to the frame. The suspension is just used as a visualisation to help explain the weight transfer occuring when you let off the gas.
When I get home I can show you the website that explains this, because I was trying to explain what that website said and it appears I did it poorly.

No problem at all I just wanted to clarify what you were saying, the part I was looking for I have highlighted in bold.

Its just that your original post read as if you were saying the load transfer occurred because of the suspension, rather than using the suspension reaction to the load transfer to illustrate the the transfer itself. Which you have now added.

Regards

Scaff

 

[Wolfe]

I totally agree that lift-off oversteer is not strong enough in GT4 (as we have discussed before) and in regard to braking oversteer, particularly in regard to vehicle instability when braking from high speed, I am yet to come across a game/sim that gets this right.

Among its many strengths, I believe Live for Speed does a pretty good job with braking oversteer.

I can't however agree that both games have little understanding of weight transfer, or weight in general. Now don't take that as me saying that GT3/GT4 recreate this well, just that I don't think its as bad as is sometimes made out.

I can understand that.

It does raise an interesting discussion that I have had a number of times with sucahyo, in that I find the GT series quite poor when it comes to being able to easily judge suspension reaction and behaviour visually. What you feel and see when driving often is not well represented visually, this is particularly clear when you are tuning a car using FC suspension.

Again this is an area that I feel few games do well, GT4 is generally too stiff in its visual aspect for road cars (but more visually accurate for race cars), as you quite rightly observe its almost as if the cars have all had a slight suspension upgrade. To put this in context I find that EPR has almost the opposite problem, in that the suspension moves too smoothly, and while this looks almost right for road cars, it does look very strange on the race cars.

Regards

Scaff

I agree. Enthusia's racecars are just wrong -- the strength of the game is its simulation of roadcars.

 

[Bram Turismo]

A very good video Wolfe 👍

Though it sometimes is a bit exaggorated , 2'30 in the video is the most perfect example, exactly the same what I'm experiencing with the DFP. 800 HP of raw power to the rear wheels, no aids whatsoever, weight transfer to the back. From a straight line, I try to go in a drift which'll carry me troughout the whole corner, what happens? Te car starts to drift but already comes out of it and it just goes towards the outside, the wall. Even steering in 900° hitting full-throttle, you hear the tires squeel and squeel but the car just goes in a straight line, what up with this? Realistic, oh purrrlease!