Gt5 comps are a joke.

[Stavingo]

@Stavingo: I mean by "that is what they are" as that you have to take the competitions at face value, and not expect some noble or fair experience. Even if a judge is not competing (especially, sometimes) the impression of 'skill' they get from the driver that makes them want to vote for one is not always based on fact. Especially when it can be difficult to parse out 'skill' from 'angle and speed' which are not correlated.

So you're saying that if I enter a competition I shouldn't expect a fair judging experience?

Then technically we shouldn't even bother to enter in competitions because of no correlation between a drivers aura or skill to the criteria of angle and speed.

 

[Bluntified]

So you're saying that if I enter a competition I shouldn't expect a fair judging experience?

Then technically we shouldn't even bother to enter in competitions because of no correlation between a drivers aura or skill to the criteria of angle and speed.

Pretty much yes! Unless its an organized comp or a comp with out bias, don't even bother!

I rarely enter a comp and when I do its among only friends so that there's no bias votes!

Edit: I've had a buddy join a comp just to lose to bias votes from another team that happened to be the majority of the room.

 

[AllTerainTiger]

Pretty much yes! Unless its an organized comp or a comp with out bias, don't even bother!

I rarely enter a comp and when I do its among only friends so that there's no bias votes!

Edit: I've had a buddy join a comp just to lose to bias votes from another team that happened to be the majority of the room.

See I have no doubt that it could be bias but it does depend on who's the judges like I said before it could be the judges or it could be the drifter him self.

 

[Downhill Dino]

Bias judging is not easy to spot. A good reason as to why judges are not caught in the act or the blame is shifted to the participant. Quite a shame really.

 

[twitcher]

Straight-lined between lines one and two, maybe for half a second during transition. The rest of the turns were smooth and I got good angle.

First run I slammed on my brakes cause he spun out and regained control at the last second.

Ok, so you agree that you lost the first round (your chase run).

I'll elaborate on the second run, in which you were leading...

First though, just to clarify...comp was being held on the first section of A-Ring. Courtesy roll from start line, full throttle after end of pits (this was never actually established, but is what people were doing).

So, the run...after first run, the Z34 leads 1-0
Turn 1:
- you took a very wide, outside line through the start of t1, which, IMHO, is pretty much washing out on entry to that turn. You then cut back to the inside for a very late apex.
- the Z34 took the apex of t1 just slightly past the midpoint, which is basically the ideal spot, and where the clipping point is. You actually almost cut the Z34 off as you cut from far outside back inside.

Transition Zone:
- your line through t1 caused you to enter the short straight between turns 1 and 2 on the right hand side, and with not much angle. You transitioned quite early, and then basically drove straight almost to the apex of t2.
- having followed the correct line through t1, the Z34 entered the straight in the middle of the track, moving left with good angle. He transitioned midway down the straight, sweeping back over to the right hand side of the track before going back left to clip the apex of t2.

*** This is where you opened up your "15 car gap" (which last night was a "20 car gap"...direct quote). At the finish, it was actually more like a 10 car gap between you and the Z34.

You opened up a significant gap because you straight lined the transition between t1 and t2 so hard, and the Z34 took the proper and much more stylish line.

The rest of the run was pretty uneventful. Due to the gap, I was forced to start switching back and forth between camera views to keep tabs on both cars. I was checking my map as well. Both you and the Z34 took the correct line through the rest of the course. The only other notes I would add is that the Z34 got a little more angle through turns 5 and 6, and that you had slightly more angle through turn 7.

To recap, from what I saw, you made a significant error entering t1, which completely threw off your line through the first transition zone. You then straight-lined through the transition zone, which caused you to open up a gap on the Z34. The Z34's line through this area was far better, and is the main reason I voted for him over you.

I hope that explains what I saw well enough that you can understand why I voted for the Z34 to win round 2, and thus win the battle.

Terrible judges. I mean terrible. two people voted twice during one run (not mine) and they were counted and the other guy lost.

I won't claim to be the best judge. In fact, I would actually say I'm still in the early stages of really learning how to judge properly. I do try my best though. Also, don't forget that a few people voted for you...

I agree that the judging was far from good. But in an open lobby comp, where everyone is voting, all you can ask for is that everyone is honest, and tries their best....that usually doesn't happen, which is why when most of us want a legit comp, we sign up for one of the ones here on GTP. You can't take an open lobby comp too serious, and you kinda just have to go with the flow, and just accept whatever happens.

Kiyo vs. Dai, they got 7-8 reruns when they were crashing into each other. That never happens. (No offense to either drifters, they're both great.)

I completely agree that this was stupid. These were the first runs I saw when I entered the room, and almost caused me to leave. It was terrible lol.

The host won his own competition, like yeah, I'm sure it was out of skill. IMO a host shouldn't even compete in his/her own competition.

The host didn't win the comp....I did. I shouldn't have though, I shouldn't even have been in the finals. Penguin_Saph recieved more votes than I did during the first OMT of our semi-final battle, yet we were told to do another OMT, which I won. I offered my spot in the finals to Saph, but he declined. He was then enough of a gentleman to stay in the room to be the only judge for the final battle.

Votes were very biased towards whoever they liked rather than on actual angle/speed/clipping point/etc.

One guy got three wheels in the grass and he still won that run.

Neither the drifting nor the judging was really following angle/speed/line criteria. People were drifting all over the place. People voted when and if they felt like it. The whole thing was all over the map. You can't let yourself get so worked up over comps like that dude...🤬 happens.

This isn't about me, it's about competitions and if you're going to host one, make sure you have it set-up first.

Well thanks for making this thread to tell everyone that like I said before, when most of us GTP regulars are looking for a real comp, we participate in those that are organized here on the forums, for the very reasons you created this thread (ie being frustrated with open lobby comps).

When you do enter open lobby comps, I'd suggest going in with a "hope for the best, expect the worst" type of attitude, and save yourself some stress.

Another option for you would be to start orgainizing and hosting your very own comps. That way, you can ensure that everything is fair. You could even invite a bunch of us GTP drifters to your comp, and then we can get a chance to better evaluate your judging

 

[AllTerainTiger]

Ok, so you agree that you lost the first round (your chase run).

I'll elaborate on the second run, in which you were leading...

First though, just to clarify...comp was being held on the first section of A-Ring. Courtesy roll from start line, full throttle after end of pits (this was never actually established, but is what people were doing).

So, the run...after first run, the Z34 leads 1-0
Turn 1:
- you took a very wide, outside line through the start of t1, which, IMHO, is pretty much washing out on entry to that turn. You then cut back to the inside for a very late apex.
- the Z34 took the apex of t1 just slightly past the midpoint, which is basically the ideal spot, and where the clipping point is. You actually almost cut the Z34 off as you cut from far outside back inside.

Transition Zone:
- your line through t1 caused you to enter the short straight between turns 1 and 2 on the right hand side, and with not much angle. You transitioned quite early, and then basically drove straight almost to the apex of t2.
- having followed the correct line through t1, the Z34 entered the straight in the middle of the track, moving left with good angle. He transitioned midway down the straight, sweeping back over to the right hand side of the track before going back left to clip the apex of t2.

*** This is where you opened up your "15 car gap" (which last night was a "20 car gap"...direct quote). At the finish, it was actually more like a 10 car gap between you and the Z34.

You opened up a significant gap because you straight lined the transition between t1 and t2 so hard, and the Z34 took the proper and much more stylish line.

The rest of the run was pretty uneventful. Due to the gap, I was forced to start switching back and forth between camera views to keep tabs on both cars. I was checking my map as well. Both you and the Z34 took the correct line through the rest of the course. The only other notes I would add is that the Z34 got a little more angle through turns 5 and 6, and that you had slightly more angle through turn 7.

To recap, from what I saw, you made a significant error entering t1, which completely threw off your line through the first transition zone. You then straight-lined through the transition zone, which caused you to open up a gap on the Z34. The Z34's line through this area was far better, and is the main reason I voted for him over you.

I hope that explains what I saw well enough that you can understand why I voted for the Z34 to win round 2, and thus win the battle.

I won't claim to be the best judge. In fact, I would actually say I'm still in the early stages of really learning how to judge properly. I do try my best though. Also, don't forget that a few people voted for you...

I agree that the judging was far from good. But in an open lobby comp, where everyone is voting, all you can ask for is that everyone is honest, and tries their best....that usually doesn't happen, which is why when most of us want a legit comp, we sign up for one of the ones here on GTP. You can't take an open lobby comp too serious, and you kinda just have to go with the flow, and just accept whatever happens.

I completely agree that this was stupid. These were the first runs I saw when I entered the room, and almost caused me to leave. It was terrible lol.

The host didn't win the comp....I did. I shouldn't have though, I shouldn't even have been in the finals. Penguin_Saph recieved more votes than I did during the first OMT of our semi-final battle, yet we were told to do another OMT, which I won. I offered my spot in the finals to Saph, but he declined. He was then enough of a gentleman to stay in the room to be the only judge for the final battle.

Neither the drifting nor the judging was really following angle/speed/line criteria. People were drifting all over the place. People voted when and if they felt like it. The whole thing was all over the map. You can't let yourself get so worked up over comps like that dude...🤬 happens.

Well thanks for making this thread to tell everyone that like I said before, when most of us GTP regulars are looking for a real comp, we participate in those that are organized here on the forums, for the very reasons you created this thread (ie being frustrated with open lobby comps).

When you do enter open lobby comps, I'd suggest going in with a "hope for the best, expect the worst" type of attitude, and save yourself some stress.

Another option for you would be to start orgainizing and hosting your very own comps. That way, you can ensure that everything is fair. You could even invite a bunch of us GTP drifters to your comp, and then we can get a chance to better evaluate your judging

So in this case it was both bias and the drifters fault. But I suggest next time just deal with and don't make a big deal out of it and make a thread just to complain

 

[DarkAvengerZR1]

Guys, i will tell you something shocking...


It is just... a game.

Your minds now:

 

[AllTerainTiger]

Guys, i will tell you something shocking...

It is just... a game.

Your minds now:

Aha thank you Dark I don't know why people get so mad over a drift comp in a game.

 

[Stavingo]

Guys, i will tell you something shocking...


It is just... a game.

Your minds now:

I don't know why but I just find it ironic that you post that.

Pretty much yes! Unless its an organized comp or a comp with out bias, don't even bother!

I rarely enter a comp and when I do its among only friends so that there's no bias votes!

Edit: I've had a buddy join a comp just to lose to bias votes from another team that happened to be the majority of the room.

I guess the days for equal judging a long gone, bring back GTP H2H!

 

[TwistyDrift]

It's all fun and games until you battle Lucas then it's war! Lol it's fun no matter who your against, I just get a thrill killing someone's door.

I just get a thrill killing someone's door.

You will always get a thrill having door to door action with somebody! But it's damn hard to maintain the drift when you are on the wheel and having the lack of being able to look left and right to see how you are doing and what the others are doing.

I use to play rfactor and they had a setting where when you turn the wheel left the screen moves slightly left as well when your in bonnet view.

 

[AllTerainTiger]

You will always get a thrill having door to door action with somebody! But it's damn hard to maintain the drift when you are on the wheel and having the lack of being able to look left and right to see how you are doing and what the others are doing.

I use to play rfactor and they had a setting where when you turn the wheel left the screen moves slightly left as well when your in bonnet view.

Hey twisty if you have a playstation eye you can set it up so when you move your head left and right the camera moves too. It's really helpful I use it for rally and drifting. It's better than looking back or looking left or right every 2 seconds.

 

[Downhill Dino]

I thought that only applied to Easy mode in Arcade? They actually changed it?

 

[GhostZ]

Pretty much yes! Unless its an organized comp or a comp with out bias, don't even bother!

I rarely enter a comp and when I do its among only friends so that there's no bias votes!

Edit: I've had a buddy join a comp just to lose to bias votes from another team that happened to be the majority of the room.

Normally yes, but even in "fair" competitions, there is both:

A. A sense of understanding that the Judge has for the competitor (A judge is more likely to notice unique and special talent from someone he knows personally than a drifter he does not)
B. Two drift cars can require vastly different skill levels to attain the same results. The same drift car could be tuned in a way that makes it more usable, but also more difficult to use. Two drifters who do the identical thing could have vastly different skill levels. I know that tuning does have some impact, but it is not feasible for a driver to tune his car for each specific type of drift he does. This is part of the interplay between drivers and their machines, but it also makes it less fair.

 

[AllTerainTiger]

I thought that only applied to Easy mode in Arcade? They actually changed it?

What the camera. For me it works online aswell

 

[DarkAvengerZR1]

I don't know why but I just find it ironic that you post that.

Elaborate, please.

 

[AllTerainTiger]

Elaborate, please.

Classy very classy

 

[JR86]

Guys, i will tell you something shocking...


It is just... a game.

Your minds now:

Technically a game, but more biased as a simulator (as it sais in the game title, "the real driving simulator"). It may be a game but I can guarantee you as well as others (including myself) are still serious to a state about it. If you weren't you wouldn't have learn't to drift.

ANYWAY... Miko, wether it was your own fault or the fault of judges, you should discredit the results of the tandem as by the sounds, it was a bit of a dodgey competition. However that does not mean all comps in GT5 are a joke. If you want to join a competition that isn't a joke, look to VDC, D1GP or any other drift competition listed on here

 

[Stavingo]

Normally yes, but even in "fair" competitions, there is both:

A. A sense of understanding that the Judge has for the competitor (A judge is more likely to notice unique and special talent from someone he knows personally than a drifter he does not)
B. Two drift cars can require vastly different skill levels to attain the same results. The same drift car could be tuned in a way that makes it more usable, but also more difficult to use. Two drifters who do the identical thing could have vastly different skill levels. I know that tuning does have some impact, but it is not feasible for a driver to tune his car for each specific type of drift he does. This is part of the interplay between drivers and their machines, but it also makes it less fair.

How does A work within the aspect that the judge drifts with the competitor normally, wouldn't it do the total opposite since they'd start to notice their tendencies whilst drifting?

Also, your point B pretty much conveys to me that tuning covers up drifters 'lack of skill' in order to be able to compete with others

Elaborate, please.

I just found it ironic and funny, sarcastic eyes I guess.
I gather it's in your interest to find out why it's ironic because you took offence to what I said yeah?

 

[GhostZ]

How does A work within the aspect that the judge drifts with the competitor normally, wouldn't it do the total opposite since they'd start to notice their tendencies whilst drifting?

Also, your point B pretty much conveys to me that tuning covers up drifters 'lack of skill' in order to be able to compete with others

Familiarity with a drifter's style makes it more forgiven for what some might perceive as 'mistakes' or a less impressive 'style' if they know it is an intentional style of driving. Consider two drifters with the same angle and the same clipping points. One does it with a high lean of body roll and sudden throw-ins. The other is a slower throw-in with less body roll. Neither might be 'objectively' better by most judging criteria, but if you are familiar with the smooth drifter there is a tendency to recognize the other drifter as reckless or inexperienced. If you are familiar with the aggressive drifter, you may have the tendency to recognize the other drifter as cautious and less-risk taking and not able to keep up with the aggressive drifter. Perception plays a lot in the role of "style" and everyone has their idea of how a drift car should look with a proper driver. Not always, but the possibility is there.

And tuning can cover up a lack of skill. Not always, but the possibility is there.

Remember, I'm not saying that Judging is absolutely not objective, but that it is never "completely" objective, because of those possibilities.

 

[Stavingo]

Familiarity with a drifter's style makes it more forgiven for what some might perceive as 'mistakes' or a less impressive 'style' if they know it is an intentional style of driving. Consider two drifters with the same angle and the same clipping points. One does it with a high lean of body roll and sudden throw-ins. The other is a slower throw-in with less body roll. Neither might be 'objectively' better by most judging criteria, but if you are familiar with the smooth drifter there is a tendency to recognize the other drifter as reckless or inexperienced. If you are familiar with the aggressive drifter, you may have the tendency to recognize the other drifter as cautious and less-risk taking and not able to keep up with the aggressive drifter. Perception plays a lot in the role of "style" and everyone has their idea of how a drift car should look with a proper driver. Not always, but the possibility is there.

And tuning can cover up a lack of skill. Not always, but the possibility is there.

Remember, I'm not saying that Judging is absolutely not objective, but that it is never "completely" objective, because of those possibilities.

Fair call, can't disagree with that.

 

[nk4e]

I just want to say this, I miss how we ran competitions.

 

[JR86]

Familiarity with a drifter's style makes it more forgiven for what some might perceive as 'mistakes' or a less impressive 'style' if they know it is an intentional style of driving. Consider two drifters with the same angle and the same clipping points. One does it with a high lean of body roll and sudden throw-ins. The other is a slower throw-in with less body roll. Neither might be 'objectively' better by most judging criteria, but if you are familiar with the smooth drifter there is a tendency to recognize the other drifter as reckless or inexperienced. If you are familiar with the aggressive drifter, you may have the tendency to recognize the other drifter as cautious and less-risk taking and not able to keep up with the aggressive drifter. Perception plays a lot in the role of "style" and everyone has their idea of how a drift car should look with a proper driver. Not always, but the possibility is there.

And tuning can cover up a lack of skill. Not always, but the possibility is there.

Remember, I'm not saying that Judging is absolutely not objective, but that it is never "completely" objective, because of those possibilities.

I had to think for a moment to understand what would happen in the simulated situation. The aggressive drifter may look more "exciting" to some but others would find the fluid like motion of the smooth drifter to be better. I would give the round to the less aggressive drifter personally as he is portraying better balance of his vehicle. Depending on who is in what position can change this however. This judging of style falls under the "overall impression" category which is subjective, yes, but a judge familiar to the sport would make the right call. With identical line and angle a one more time would most likely be called. It's a situation similar to this video:


In the situation the judges are still judging based on line and angle. I know that the drifting styles of Nomuken and Kumakubo but it's close to the proposed situation.

 

[GhostZ]

I had to think for a moment to understand what would happen in the simulated situation. The aggressive drifter may look more "exciting" to some but others would find the fluid like motion of the smooth drifter to be better. I would give the round to the less aggressive drifter personally as he is portraying better balance of his vehicle. Depending on who is in what position can change this however. This judging of style falls under the "overall impression" category which is subjective, yes, but a judge familiar to the sport would make the right call. With identical line and angle a one more time would most likely be called. It's a situation similar to this video:


In the situation the judges are still judging based on line and angle. I know that the drifting styles of Nomuken and Kumakubo but it's close to the proposed situation.

I repeat myself from the last time I responded to you: this is not D1GP. This is GT5.

For what you are saying to be true of GT5, it means that the GT5 judges are perceptive, unbiased, and all agree together on their criteria that any subjectivity is negligible. This may be the case in D1GP. But in online competitions, this is simply not the case. I'm not talking at all about D1GP judges, just GT5 ones, which this entire thread is about.

Teams and individuals here can adhere to a notion of D1GP rules all they want, it doesn't mean they automatically become unbiased arbiters of all drifting styles.

I've already spent a lot of time explaining why this is the case, if you don't understand then don't worry about it. It's not important to the OP's questions.

 

[AllTerainTiger]

If this was d1gp there would be alot of crazy Japanese guys screaming and alot of awesome drifting.

 

[GhostZ]

If this was d1gp there would be alot of crazy Japanese guys screaming and alot of awesome drifting.

And more of this:

 

[AllTerainTiger]

And more of this:

Now we're talking lol

 

[Bluntified]

That video's pretty crazy 👍.

 

[JR86]

I repeat myself from the last time I responded to you: this is not D1GP. This is GT5.

For what you are saying to be true of GT5, it means that the GT5 judges are perceptive, unbiased, and all agree together on their criteria that any subjectivity is negligible. This may be the case in D1GP. But in online competitions, this is simply not the case. I'm not talking at all about D1GP judges, just GT5 ones, which this entire thread is about.

Teams and individuals here can adhere to a notion of D1GP rules all they want, it doesn't mean they automatically become unbiased arbiters of all drifting styles.

I've already spent a lot of time explaining why this is the case, if you don't understand then don't worry about it. It's not important to the OP's questions.

I didn't think you were talking about GT5, I thought you were talking about drifting in general. And I was just using the video as a broad example of what I was trying to describe.

 

[Suzuki]

I just want to say this, I miss how we ran competitions.

Agreed.

 

[GhostZ]

I didn't think you were talking about GT5, I thought you were talking about drifting in general. And I was just using the video as a broad example of what I was trying to describe.

I understand drifting in general more than well enough to know that D1 judges look for. You'd be correct I had been posting about D1 though, I agree that they are much more rigorous and reasonable, partly because the drifters are far more skilled.