GT5 might be lame

[Bones Brigade]

you're all leaving out the most obvious answer; credit.

 

[HoffY]

live4speed,

well said.

 

[Kylehnat]

you're all leaving out the most obvious answer; credit.

I financed my PS3 with a 10.9% APR .

 

[JohnBM01]

The logic here is that GT5 MIGHT be lame simply because of the transistion from one console to a better console. Let me provide you an example to prove why this may be true. The release of the XBOX360 saw one title come up as Madden NFL 2006 was on. It was obviously a good game for most current-gen consoles as well as on PC. However on the XBOX360, I heard this next-gen version of Madden NFL 2006 didn't do too well. Don't perscribe to the possibility that GT5 is going to be a flop on the PS3 simply because of the transition to this newer build. A number of us will probably agree that the GT2 to GT3 transition was a pretty nice transition when we first seen it and played it. I basically thought the transistion (after a great deal of experience with the game) was basically GT2 with reflective mapping and some different enhanced modeling.

Now for a reason why that specific logic is wrong. I usually stress not to assume or expect anything. My best feeling is that PD will try to improve their efforts in making GT5 to make it much more different from GT4 in reasons other than graphics and sound. The Gran Turismo series isn't Madden, NBA Live, NCAA Football, March Madness, or any of those yearly game titles. So it would be EXTREMELY pointless in saying that GT5 is going to be missed oppurtunity only because of a failed transition. PD will really have to be lazy in order to create GT5 as a lightly-modified GT4 (like the Vision GT and GT:HD footage we've seen).

I do want you to believe what you want. I just want to think that GT5 will be made in a way so that it doesn't follow the same mistakes of GT3 or even be worse than GT3 in terms of what was lost in translation from GT2 to GT3. Have some optimism for this title and don't sell it short of anything just yet. All PD needs to do is take their time and not rush everything so that the end result is the missed execution of GT2, the big feeling of emptiness and incompletion that's GT3, or both. Suck up to GT2 or GT3 all you want. All I'm saying is that PD has to learn from GT2 -> GT3 (if they haven't already) in making the transition from GT4 to GT5. From PS2 to PS3. It sounds easy as pie, but you also don't want to make the next installment of the series strikingly similar to a previous title. A franchise game series should continue the run of goodness from the previous title. Improving games should continue improving and not declining. For PD, it should be about Carpe diem! (Seize the day!) Do good on making this GT shine over others, including GT4. I think PD can dig that. But do YOU dig?

 

[luftrofl]

what about those to young for a well payed job

Define well paying job.

The past two Summers I've been able to work $8/hr. After taxes, would take about 11, maybe 12 days to get enough money for a PS3.

I don't think that was so bad, then for a 15 year old, now 17 year old- right in your age range, right?

 

[Shinj]

Im too young for a job but could probs save £400 for a PS3, or just ask my parents very nicely

 

[Nøz]

Well paid job or not, most people can save £400 up, it's not an hoorendous ammoun of money, I pay more than that each year just for my car insurance, I pay well over £400 a month on bills and the house. When I was living with my parents and only an apprentice I earnt maybe £600 per month, I was still able to buty a £300 PS2 easy enough, saving the extra £100 wouldn't have been too much trouble if it cost that much and I wanted it.

as for kids in school and such, did they pay for thier PS2's or XB's? I doubt it. The bottom line is, the PS3 is cheaper in the long run than the XB360, especially if you want the HD DVD addon for the 360. 1 years live Goldmembership for the XB360 is £25, say you have it for 5 years that's £125 to play games online, that alone puts the premiun XB360 right level with the 60gb PS3, only the XB360 doesn't have HDMI, it only has a DVD drive, (the HD DVD is $200 more) and it's HDD is 40gb smaller. The PS3 is a very good deal when you look into it deeper.

What you save on the initial price of the 360 MS make back in other ways, ie stupidly expensive control pads and then you have to buy a specail pack seperately to charge the pads.

I have an XB360 by the way.

I got my PS2 when I was 12 & it took me about a year to save the money

 

[ajprice]

If the thread was about the technology differences between Playstation, PS2 and PS3, I'd understand the argument because its transferring to a new platform. Apart from size, theres no difference between a game written on CD, DVD or Blu Ray.

 

[Swift]

I got my PS2 when I was 12 & it took me about a year to save the money

Then you're one of the more fortunate 12 year olds in the world, at the time.

 

[SavageEvil]

This thread starter is a bit confused by transferrance of franchises to newer hardware. That isn't always the case, in fact only time that happens is when EA bring out a game.

Now GT2 is still the best, followed by GT3/4 tie. I was just playing GT2 the other day, this game looks terrible with Component cables, lol. The engine sounds in this game are utterly amazing, for a PS1. The motion of the vehicles when they are turning and reacting to the pavement is pretty smooth. GT2 has the wealth of cars that GT3 lacks, and the fun and playability that GT4 is missing. I played all three of these games to death, GT2 still outstrips them both, in vehicle selection and courses(aside from the Nur in GT4). GT3 every car felt like it was sorta magnetized to the street, even the lighter cars felt heavy, like lead bricks that didn't lose control easily.
That's my input on the ladder stacking of the GT series.

 

[Shinj]

Cant really remember GT2 because i aint got a PS1 anymore but i think GT4 > GT3 for the simple fact it has the Nurb and the bigger selection of cars.

 

[Tenacious D]

I only remember GT2 enough to know that I loved the load of cars, the tracks and the racing mods. But GT3's car performance pretty much showed up GT2's car physics, and GT4 did the same thing to 3.

Anyway, what does GT4 need in order to improve?

- A system with a faster, higher bit architecture
- More ram
- A better graphics unit with a lot more ram
- A more spacious, faster medium loading the game to the system

So what do we have with the PS3?

- A system with a faster, higher bit architecture
- More ram
- A better graphics unit with a lot more ram
- A more spacious, faster medium loading the game to the system

So, does anyone seriously think that GT5 - or even GT HD for that matter - will have the same engine and math calculations for a system with a 32 bit 330mhz processor, 32megs of system ram and FOUR megs of VRam? Has ANYTHING you've seen so far on the PS3 dev systems even looked like a GameCube game??

Which brings up another point. It looks like Gran Turismo 4.5 may be coming out after all. Polyphony might be doing like the other developers loading up that Blu-ray disc with way more than 9gigs of content, which means a GT5 we may not see for a while yet. It may have everything the dissenters have been screaming about, like way over 600 cars, full damage modelling, interior driver view and all the rest.

I wonder how many of you who insist that GT HD is beneath them will be seen leaving a game store with that very game? Especially since the title, Gran Turismo Series, speaks to a compilation of all the previous games wrapped in one? All the things that the guys here have said made Gran Turismo X the best of the series... what if they were all under one roof with improved graphics and physics, a huge song list perhaps from all games and regions, online play, racing mod and a paint shop? Would that make you happy till GT5 is ready?

Man, I would be.

 

[Master_Yoda]

what about those to young for a well payed job

I'm 15 bud! I an't exactly old. I am lucky cause I come from a wealthyish family. Kind of one of the reasons why I live in Marin.

 

[JohnBM01]

I've stressed in the past that GT fans should at least rent GT1 through GT3 to know how we've gone from GT1 to now. I wasn't as hooked to GT2 as I was with GT1. Even with GT3, I went back to GT1 from my PS1 Memory Card. I was on a mission to try to relive GT2 and finish what I started.

In looking at the transition from GT2 and the PS1 to GT3 and the PS2, let's discuss this. Let's think about some of the changes made to the GT series so that it could be on the PS2. This is not about gameplay. I'll begin.

The most notable aspect of GT3 was all the modeling done to the cars and the tracks. Think of Rome Circuit in GT2 and Rome Circuit in GT3. Everything is much more detailed, not to mention reflective mapping on the cars. Imagine taking a car from GT2 on the track in GT3. Maybe think about the Castrol Toyota Supra GT running around these streets. And I just chose any car, so don't slam me like "couldn't you have come up with a better car than that?" Anyhow, the car and track are more detailed than in GT2. You even get to look through the glass a bit. So it isn't like you have cars you can't see through the glass (except for cars with lights covered by glass like the TVR Griffith 500). You even get the sun beaming in all its brightness as well as the sun shining on the road. GT3 even featured some racing in the wet. Special Stage Route 5 was the course as it was designated for one-on-one racing or even up to four to a track for racing. There is also color-shifting paint for cars even considering you race TVR Tuscan Speed Six models in one one-make race. GT2 didn't have ANY of these. Now let's look at the negatives. Biggest negative- there were a LOT of cars in GT2. Where are all of them? Modeling the cars took longer to complete. I think I've heard of cars taking about two weeks to complete for less than 200 cars including the fantasy F1 cars. Cars previously in GT2 had to be re-photographed to make it into GT3. Some engine sounds were new, but not as many were new. I basically thought of it later on as a prettier GT2 with even less execution.

I talked about the transition from GT2 to GT3. Let's talk more about this transition more in detail just to discuss what will have to work correctly to make the GT4 to GT5 transition a huge improvement over GT2 -> GT3.

 

[Michael88]

I'm 15 bud! I an't exactly old. I am lucky cause I come from a wealthyish family. Kind of one of the reasons why I live in Marin.

You're just a bloodsucking parasite! Just kidding...

I have a job, its not bad but full-time....but I have enough money to buy more than three PS3's!

 

[LeadSlead#2]

GT5 is going to be awesome. Period.
The graphics will be even better, as hard that may seem, better than anything we've seen, I fully expect the physics to improve, more than anything, and we'll still see oodles of cars, maybe not 700, but there will be enough to keep everyone happy until hundreds of hours in.
How many games give people the hundred or even THOUSANDS of hours that the GT series does?
add to all this actual online play? racing real, competitive opponents?

Yes, my friend, GT5 will be awesome.

EDIT: GT2 was the worst GT game. period. yes, I said the definitivly. Bugs, horrible races, glitches, and overkill.
GT2 was the simple reason people ask for quality before quantity. GT2 had quantity, loads of it. but it all sucked. cars didnt drive realistically, and werent as fun to drive as in GT1. half the races were stupid one-make races you could win in your sleep. the other half simply had no bounds to keep you from destroying the comp. (unlike GT1) And loads of cars were featured, but you couldnt race against much, cause the race selection sucked. add to all this the 3 times my mem card got "corrupt data", and you have a piss-poor excuse for Gran Turismo.

GT3 was a vast imrpovement over GT2, in every way except for quantity.
Driving physics improved so drastically I can't describe it. Race selection improved equally as well. competition was back to original GT status, tuning abilitys were made much more realistic, and gave you more room to play with each car. almost every car in GT3 was a car everybody would buy, unlike GT2, taking some of that 350+ defecit away, less tracks, but they all looked and drove so much differently, it was nearly comparable to new tracks.
add to all this that game saves werent slaughtered evey 3 weeks, and you have a far superior game.

GT4: 700 cars. Real-life Tracks. tons of races. Yup, 2nd game on a system, PD chose quantity over quality, again. AI drives like legally blind senior citizens, many cars are nearly identical, some are, minus colors, blah, blah, blah.
A-Spec points: great idea, a great way to reward people for racing harder races, keeps it interesting longer.
Driving physics are better yet, though wheelspin is a major problem, still headed in the right direction. (don't believe, fire up GT3-feels like a trip to PS1)
graphics are improved, on a very similar scale as GT1-GT2.

GT5: look for better graphics, way better. Look for some new tracks, and all the old ones, minus a possible few originals. cars, look for less doubles, some new additions, but mostly the newest, updated models ( '06, '07's) races, there will be less, probabley, but they will be better, with a much more competent AI, and more details keeping races competitive. Online racing, it will exist.
Tracks: 5-10 more.
Cars: 300(ish)
Online Racing: actually here
Races: less, but more fun, also longer common races (i.e., less 2 lap crappers, more 5-10 lappers, maybe even 20-40's (more endurances?)
Features: Painting, more customizing, just plain more features than ever before.

 

[Tenacious D]

Unfortunately John, many kids are bored with straight ahead racing. Go figure. They want drift, drag racing, touge. They want to bump fenders on city streets and add nitrous. I'm glad that there are still people who want to play GTR and Live For Speed.

So anyway, to please those people who insist that racing isn't racing unless you can do donuts or drift with ease, make sure that the low speed physics is as good as the high speed. According to those who partake of that sort of thing, drifting in games like Forza is too easy, so maybe Polyphony could add a drifting section which makes drifting easier for the kids. Frankly, I couldn't care less. I'd set up GT5 for racing and if people could manage to drift, more power to 'em.

There will always be a mouthy minority who insist that Gran Turismo hasn't arrived unless it has damage and cockpit view, rumble (good grief), cupholders and whatever. With the seeming delay of GT5, substituted with GT HD for now, Polyphony could take as long as necessary to implement all that. Finally, we'll have our cupholders.

Will it make them happy? Who knows. Many of that mouthy minority are PC addicts who won't give a console racer the time of day, so I'm sure there will be some nitpicking so they'll have something to complain about.

There's also the matter of those who for some bizarre reason can't imagine Polyphony taking advantage of the extra space and processing power of the PS3 to implement things like bot AI. I've discussed this numerous times, but it seems like some of these people have blinders on that they refuse to read anything that contradicts their feelings. I've pointed out that on the PS2, the bots have always had digital brakes. Polyphony developed some system optimizer tools to squeeze as much from the PS2 as possible, and they STILL couldn't put analog brakes in GT4! There just wasn't processor resource available even for that. All the power of the PS2 RISC processor was devoted to getting those cars around the track in as realistic way as they could.

So, here we have the PS3. Multiply the system ram by 8. Multiply the video ram by 64!! Multiply the processor power exponentially. Will Polyphony be lazy, and use the same game engine as the PS2?

If you were rich, would you buy a used Honda Accord?? I mean, seriously.
But some people actually think like that. How well these improvements will be done depends on how much time Kazunori wants his team to work on GT5. He seems to be picky. He said that damage would only appear when he was happy with it. With the release of GT HD, he's bought some more time he can spend to get things to match his requirements.

Gran Turismo in Kazunori-sama's ultimate dream form is a game which takes us through racing history. Considering the possibility that work on this form of Gran Turismo may have been going on for years already, I think he can probably deliver one heck of a game that has much of his dream brought to life.

 

[Wolfe]

So anyway, to please those people who insist that racing isn't racing unless you can do donuts or drift with ease, make sure that the low speed physics is as good as the high speed.

It's more complicated than that. If drifting, donuts, and other loss-of-traction situations don't work properly, then it ruins any illusion of realism that the game may have established up until the point where you under- or oversteered.

For example, let's say that as long as you maintain grip, a particular game has the best physics on the planet. Now, what if you accidentally enter a corner too hot, slam on the brakes, go into a slide, and start spinning like a top at the speed of light before doing 5 barrel rolls and landing upside-down in a field 10 miles away from the track? Would you consider that game to be realistic?

No matter how good you are, you will still occasionally make mistakes, and a driving simulator needs to simulate all areas of car control properly in order to call itself realistic.

I'd set up GT5 for racing and if people could manage to drift, more power to 'em.

Drifting shouldn't be something you have to "manage." In real life, it's something that's easy to get into, but difficult to master.

There will always be a mouthy minority who insist that Gran Turismo hasn't arrived unless it has damage and cockpit view, rumble (good grief), cupholders and whatever. With the seeming delay of GT5, substituted with GT HD for now, Polyphony could take as long as necessary to implement all that. Finally, we'll have our cupholders.

I don't really care that much about damage, but there is something to be said about the ability to wallride in GT4, and the ability to come back from what would have been a life-threatening crash and win a race.

As for cockpits, dashboards and/or accurate gauges, what's the difference between demanding a detailed, accurate exterior, and demanding a detailed, accurate interior? Not much. Driving from a cockpit view with a dashboard may not be your thing, but what if you liked driving from the outside view, and all of the cars in GT4 looked like something from the original Star Fox on SNES?

The lack of rumble can hardly be blamed on Polyphony Digital, but I do believe it is a huge mistake on Sony's part. The thing about rumble is that if it's implemented properly, you won't really notice it until it's gone, and then you're left wondering why your gaming experience feels a bit...empty. In my opinion, any game that places you in a 3-dimensional environment should have rumble.

 

[Robin]

This issue of first games on new consoles really worry me..... the first few PS2 games now looking back looked graphically horrible and had way less features or things like cars, levels etc etc..... then all of a sudden give it 2 sequels and suddenly it has way more stuff and looks amazing...

Im basically talking about things like GT3 and GT4 and maybe GTA3 and GTASA..... these differences on the same hardware is huge..... which means.....

All new or first titles on new consoles will look great at the time but are not using the full potential of the machine maybe because the developers dont know how to or they are doing it on perpose to make sequels look amazing.....

I really have NEVER seen a launch title look the 'best ever' on a console for the 6-7 odd year life cycle and has not been outdone......

Robin

 

[Master_Yoda]

You're just a bloodsucking parasite! Just kidding...

I have a job, its not bad but full-time....but I have enough money to buy more than three PS3's!

I don't have one right now, but i can afford one.

 

[Wolfe]

This issue of first games on new consoles really worry me..... the first few PS2 games now looking back looked graphically horrible and had way less features or things like cars, levels etc etc..... then all of a sudden give it 2 sequels and suddenly it has way more stuff and looks amazing...

Im basically talking about things like GT3 and GT4 and maybe GTA3 and GTASA..... these differences on the same hardware is huge.....

Those are probably the two worst examples you could have chosen to make your point.

Both GT4 and GTASA stretched the absolute limits of their respective game engines, degrading the gameplay quality as a result.

 

[Tenacious D]

It's more complicated than that. If drifting, donuts, and other loss-of-traction situations don't work properly, then it ruins any illusion of realism that the game may have established up until the point where you under- or oversteered.

You're going to have to provide those videos you've threatened to time and again. Considering that I've read as many threads by people who race in real life who say the physics in GT4 are just dandy vs those who disagree, and many of those guys are drifter fiends, I call it a wash. Is it perfect? No, there are some low speed situations in which the physics could be better, but apparently it's very close. But then, I really have yet to experience a game of breathtaking accuracy that made me forget I was playing a game.

When I take a turn in an aggressive way with my Supra in real life, and a turn in my Supra in GT4, there are uncanny similarities. The amount of traction I experience when the tires begin to complain are very similar. The tire sounds are very similar. The point at which traction is broken is very similar. The way the car slides when I loose traction is very similar. In contrast, Forza is very close in performance to Gran Turismo as well as my real life experience. However, your beloved Enthusia is nothing like it. For that matter, it's nothing like its very own opening Miata demo. So, some people won't quibble over the flaws of their own games, but what else is new?

Drifting shouldn't be something you have to "manage." In real life, it's something that's easy to get into, but difficult to master.

You're contradicting yourself. In fact, my understanding is that it's not easy to get into, and it's not easy to manage. The Japanese Godfather of drifting who's name escapes me, had to practice for quite some time before he felt like showing anyone his stuff, and those who can drift competitively are very few in number. So, whatever.

I don't really care that much about damage, but there is something to be said about the ability to wallride in GT4, and the ability to come back from what would have been a life-threatening crash and win a race.

I'm unaware of that many areas you can wallride to victory in GT4. I'm more aware of those things in GT2. But there just aren't any race ending collisions in damage free racing. You wreck, and you keep going. Like a do-over in a game with damage is any different??

As for cockpits, dashboards and/or accurate gauges, what's the difference between demanding a detailed, accurate exterior, and demanding a detailed, accurate interior? Not much.

Not much? Try doubling the modelling job per car. To put it in terms you'll understand, it's like Kazunori coming into Polyphony's studios and announcing that GT4 wouldn't be released until the car count was 1200.

Driving from a cockpit view with a dashboard may not be your thing, but what if you liked driving from the outside view, and all of the cars in GT4 looked like something from the original Star Fox on SNES?

Er... okay, moving right along......

But I will have to concur with the people on the four message boards I frequent, that almost every game with a cockpit view is way off from how it appears in real life. In fact, as one guy put it, it's like driving from the back seat. I agree totally. If I wanted to drive from behind the wheel in a game, I'd want a panoramic, spacious, expansive view of the road, not my dashboard.

Now I will say that the windshield view in Toca is just about right. You get a blackened view of the windshield frame which you see very little of, and a bit of your hood. If you notice, you can't see much of your hood at all when you get behind the wheel of a car in real life. The view of the road is pretty good in Toca, and reflects how I see the road in real life pretty well. Now if only steering with a wheel controller wasn't botched...

The lack of rumble can hardly be blamed on Polyphony Digital, but I do believe it is a huge mistake on Sony's part. The thing about rumble is that if it's implemented properly, you won't really notice it until it's gone, and then you're left wondering why your gaming experience feels a bit...empty. In my opinion, any game that places you in a 3-dimensional environment should have rumble.

Well, that's you. And like those who insist that GT5 HAS to have an interior view, there are a similar handful of people who say that the PS3 controller HAS to have rumble or it's going to suck royally. I never use rumble. I think it's a dopey gimmick and that's all it is. On those message boards once again, most posters agree that loosing rumble is okay with them, or they think it's stupid like I do.

But just so you know, Sony apparently designed an entirely different rumble mechanism in the past few months. So if a jiggly hand makes you all excited, you may be happy once again.

 

[Wolfe]

You're going to have to provide those videos you've threatened to time and again.

I had a replay for such a video saved on my memory card, but then you made a statement along the lines of "I don't even care what you think anymore, I'm just going to drop it," so I gave up on the video because I'm lazy. If I remember correctly, you also asked me to exclude almost all of the flaws anyway, because you "already knew about them."

Considering that I've read as many threads by people who race in real life who say the physics in GT4 are just dandy vs those who disagree, and many of those guys are drifter fiends, I call it a wash. Is it perfect? No, there are some low speed situations in which the physics could be better, but apparently it's very close. But then, I really have yet to experience a game of breathtaking accuracy that made me forget I was playing a game.

For the record, when you speak of those members with real-life experience, you cannot exclude Scaff, and although I probably shouldn't include him in this discussion without his knowledge or permission, I would like to point out the fact that he believes that GT4 and Enthusia are equally realistic, though flawed in different ways.

Furthermore, I will be attending a track day weekend in October, and you can bet that I will be paying attention to the way my BMW behaves at speeds that would constitute lunacy on public roads. Expect a thread about it after I return.

When I take a turn in an aggressive way with my Supra in real life, and a turn in my Supra in GT4, there are uncanny similarities. The amount of traction I experience when the tires begin to complain are very similar. The tire sounds are very similar. The point at which traction is broken is very similar. The way the car slides when I loose traction is very similar. In contrast, Forza is very close in performance to Gran Turismo as well as my real life experience. However, your beloved Enthusia is nothing like it. For that matter, it's nothing like its very own opening Miata demo. So, some people won't quibble over the flaws of their own games, but what else is new?

When I take a turn in an aggressive way with various cars in real life, and a turn in similar cars in Enthusia, there are uncanny similarities. The amount of traction I experience when the tires begin to complain are very similar. The tire sounds are very similar. The point at which traction is broken is very similar. The way the car slides when I loose traction is very similar. Live for Speed is even closer in realism to my real life experience. However, your beloved Gran Turismo 4 is nothing like it. For that matter, it's nothing like what most people claim it to be. So, some people won't quibble over the flaws of their own games, but what else is new?

If you can't tell, we're at a stalemate on this point.

You're contradicting yourself. In fact, my understanding is that it's not easy to get into, and it's not easy to manage. The Japanese Godfather of drifting who's name escapes me, had to practice for quite some time before he felt like showing anyone his stuff, and those who can drift competitively are very few in number. So, whatever.

I can't and don't want to drift competitively. That doesn't mean that I find it difficult to powerslide through corners for the fun of it, in real life or in Enthusia/LFS. It's relatively easy to drift if you aren't worried about speed, style, or linking corners together. All three of those are things that D1 drivers have to take into account.

Not much? Try doubling the modelling job per car. To put it in terms you'll understand, it's like Kazunori coming into Polyphony's studios and announcing that GT4 wouldn't be released until the car count was 1200.

My point was that the demands are the same. To put it into terms that you'll understand, having a pretty-looking car is useful for people who drive from the outside view or use photomode, but not as useful as a good interior view for those who drive from the inside/bumper view.

The only reason why it seems like a huge demand for PD's resources is because PD has fallen into the habit of excluding those interior views. If they had included them from the beginning, we probably wouldn't have quite as many cars to choose from, but the inclusion of the view would seem normal.

But just so you know, Sony apparently designed an entirely different rumble mechanism in the past few months. So if a jiggly hand makes you all excited, you may be happy once again.

A jiggly hand does indeed make me all excited. Good thing I'll be the proud owner of a Wii in a couple months, huh? My jiggling will actually have some effect in-game.

 

[Tenacious D]

For the record, when you speak of those members with real-life experience, you cannot exclude Scaff, and although I probably shouldn't include him in this discussion without his knowledge or permission, I would like to point out the fact that he believes that GT4 and Enthusia are equally realistic, though flawed in different ways.

Scaff is indeed one of the people I was thinking of, but there are plenty of others.

When I take a turn in an aggressive way with various cars in real life, and a turn in similar cars in Enthusia, there are uncanny similarities. The amount of traction I experience when the tires begin to complain are very similar. The tire sounds are very similar.

Okay, now you're just being silly. Let's try this.

When I take a turn agressively in Enthusia, the tires make no sound at all. As I loose traction, the tires STILL make no sound at all. When I'm finally on my way OFF the track, the tires finally begin complaining, but by then there's no hope of recovery.

Just making... stuff up isn't helping your argument one bit.

My point was that the demands are the same. To put it into terms that you'll understand, having a pretty-looking car is useful for people who drive from the outside view or use photomode, but not as useful as a good interior view for those who drive from the inside/bumper view.

Oh... so you think car interiors model themselves, eh? Fascinating...

A jiggly hand does indeed make me all excited. Good thing I'll be the proud owner of a Wii in a couple months, huh? My jiggling will actually have some effect in-game.

There goes my plan for watching Sony stumble and fall flat on its face in the XB360-Wii-PS3 console war...

Why Wolfie, who would have ever suspected this of you??

 

[Wolfe]

Okay, now you're just being silly. Let's try this.

When I take a turn agressively in Enthusia, the tires make no sound at all. As I loose traction, the tires STILL make no sound at all. When I'm finally on my way OFF the track, the tires finally begin complaining, but by then there's no hope of recovery.

Just making... stuff up isn't helping your argument one bit.

Whatever you say. The tires in my copy of Enthusia make such loud noise so easily that I have to turn the volume lower than I would like at night when others are trying to sleep.

Oh... so you think car interiors model themselves, eh? Fascinating...

Yup. They model themselves just like how exteriors model themselves.

Why Wolfie, who would have ever suspected this of you??

Right. I'm a Sony-hating Nintendophile because I hate one PS2 game that you love with a passion and couldn't possibly live without, and because I don't plan on getting a PS3. Let's just ignore the fact that my PS2 is used daily, that my PS2 game collection is the largest of all of my consoles, and that I enjoy playing the other three Gran Turismos.

 

[JohnBM01]

Don't be TOO worried about it, Robin ////////. The success of working with a new console is to master it as much as possible. You're not going to get it COMPLETELY right the first time out. Let's use the NCAA Football series by EA Sports. I don't think I know what was the first of the series for the PS2. The graphics were probably not as interesting and probably had fewer colleges and universities to choose from. EA tried to get as much done right with the NCAA Football franchise. Now fast forward to the new NCAA Football 2007. I played it at a Wal-Mart once for the PS2. My first NCAA Football title I got was NCAA football 2004. BIG, BIG improvements have transpired since the first game. Now the latest edition has everything from special features where you play as one specific player for a team and can even play in Spring Scrimmage games (for example, a Maize vs. Blue Spring Game for the University of Michigan). There are two factors to both sides- current technology and advances to technology. Some of you have old-school PS2 discs. Older discs have those blue... purple bottoms to them and (especially in the case of my old PS2), usually had some loud spinning to simply play through the game. Current DVD-ROMs feature the normal CD bottom color and even more storage to use. And let's not forget that GT4 had some sort of double-layered disc deal for the PS2. The end result was longer loading of the game on startup, but it did lead to much more content for such a big game. I don't think even GTA: San Andreas could have has so much content. Hell, if Rockstar followed GT4's lead, that game would have San Andreas and Vice City, or maybe even Liberty City (even though there is a mission where you return to there in GTA:SA).

All I'm getting at is that you're trying to master as much of the console's capabilities as possible. Master as much of the console from the first wave of games. When time passes, technology gets better. Think about when the first PS2 came without a modem and was big. Now look at the latest model. It's much slimmer and has a modem built in with the system. Every last game developer developing games for the PS3 is going to try to make the most of current technology. You have to make the most of the current console's capabilities to make it shine. Why do you think Project Gotham Racing 3, Call of Duty: Big Red One, and such made the most of the XBOX360's capabilities, all the way to good reviews by game reviewers? I'm sure even PD will try their absolute best with the PS3 and with GT5. They need to try their best because they believe in, "go hard or go home." Or my version of it, "play hard or go home."

 

[LeadSlead#2]

I'm sorry, but I must but in now.
@ TenaciousD - Sorry, but the low-speed traction in GT4 is ASTOUNDINGLY horrible! Also, the amount of acceleration a car pulls while spinning tires is equally, if not, moreso, ASTOUNDINGLY horrible!
Drifting requires wheelspin. the problem? in GT4, you start drifting, spinning your tires, and you LOSE speed! you slow down so much, that many times, your drift will stop before the end of the turn, because you slowed from 70 down to 40mph, and now your just driving slowly doing a massive burnout.
That is not realistic, and it also effects racing. everytime you break your tires loose, you lose way more time than you should. the effects 4WD more than RWD, and kills every chance FWD has at racing with 4WD or RWD cars, as they do in real life.
It's not that cars spin the tires to too high of a speed, it's that they spin to easily at low speeds, and, at any speed, they don't provide enough forward grip to appropriatly simulate real-life driving.

That's fact. A perfect simulation is just as easy to do donuts, drift, drag, road race, and rally.
none (except rally) can be perfect, if another is flawed, because each one contains acts in common with another, because it's all cars, driving.
Wheelspin is the MOST crucial, in seeing each work on an equal level, as it effects all, unlike, say, the rolling resistance of your tires (which will still effect all, just some more than others)

Take it or leave it, Wolfe wasnt lying, and neither am I, and neither of us is wrong.
( I Must disagree wholeheartedly with Wolfe about GT4 sucking, as it is improved in many ways over GT3.) the only real downgrades are races/competition, and acceleration while spinning tires. which are major, but all the vast improvements, at the least, make it a stalemate, IMO

 

[Tenacious D]

Wolfe: you would be surprised how many people warned me about the very things I brought up before I bought Enthusia. They didn't even tell the whole story. Things must really be dead in the Enthusia and LFS parts of the net if you have to keep patrolling and straightening people out, over and over and etc, giving non-answers to things I bring up. So you enjoy your little hand controlled cars and have a nice day.

LeadSlead: I'm sorry, but I don't see the physics disaster you do. If anything, I recall the times I was with friends throwing their cars around trying to drift on asphalt and snow or whatever. And they complained just as much about their cars refusing to do what they wanted as they did trying to get their cars to do what they wanted in GT4.

Car sliding and spinning is not as precise as you guys insist. Unless you're Tiff Needell or some drift master, cars are not going to behave in a predictable, repeatable way when traction is lost, especially when you leave the track.

Each game has its own take on all the aspects of car behavior, since none of them are perfect or comprehensive, and if one aspect of Gran Turismo gives you guys such a cow, especially when you're talking about a small part of the driving envelope, either you're being unnecessarily anal about it, or you're trying to do something which the game is not designed to do. Since Gran Turismo has never pretended to be "The Real Drifting Simulator," I think you have to realize this.

Wolfe is perfectly happy with his strange creature known as Enthusia, millions more enjoy Toca, and I'm happy with Gran Turismo. But I'm happy to play in my yard and don't feel the need to go around bossing the rest of the video game world. I stay out of the Enthusia and Live For Speed sections because Enthusia offers nothing of interest, and I think my install of Windows doesn't like LFS. It never did install properly, but since it offers all of 5 tracks and 20 cars and all but one is made up, and you have to pay a fairly tidy sum for a hobby build of a game, I think I'll pass. I have enough to do with Gran Turismo, Forza, Phantasy Star, Resident Evil, Devil May Cry and soon, the Metal Gear Solid series!

 

[Wolfe]

Wolfe: you would be surprised how many people warned me about the very things I brought up before I bought Enthusia. They didn't even tell the whole story. Things must really be dead in the Enthusia and LFS parts of the net if you have to keep patrolling and straightening people out, over and over and etc, giving non-answers to things I bring up. So you enjoy your little hand controlled cars and have a nice day.

I find that venturing out of the Enthusia and Live for Speed forums (which rarely see very many posts from me or anyone else these days) and entering discussions with people who might disagree with me is a more productive way to spend my time on GTP than sticking to the forums of the game(s) that I love and griping about people who disagree with me in every other post.

I don't go into the GT4 or GT5 forums because I like to pick fights, and I don't start discussions like this because I hate the Gran Turismo series and/or Polyphony Digital -- I go into them because I own GT4, and hope GT5 is a huge improvement over it. It is my opinion that GT4 is not the greatest driving sim on the planet, or the best on the PS2, or even the best Gran Turismo...and I believe I have a right to share that opinion, do I not?

Anyway, I apologize if you think I'm giving you non-answers, but I must say that the feeling is mutual. After all, you were the one who significantly chopped down the breadth of our discussion in post #54, posting short responses and resorting to personal remarks.

 

[German Muscle]

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