GT5 might be lame

[Tenacious D]

Well, code Live For Speed and GTR to run on the PS2 and compare engines. Then maybe we'll talk.

And by the way, I disagree with your and Wolfe's assessment that EPR is superior to GT4 in handling, feel and immersion. That may be my opinion, but as far as I'm concerned that is indeed a fact.

I will tell you something that is an incontrovertible fact. EPR has a Miata demo which is proported to be 100% in game. It is absolutely false. It's a video of a live Miata test run pixellated to look lower resolution. The game is nothing like a real Miata on a test course. I was really excited when I saw that, so when I saw the game and it drove nothing like a real car, I was seriously angry at the money I wasted.

 

[McLaren]

Gran Turismo 5...the first GT game I'm sitting on the wall. It's downside right now is that it's sitting on a $500 system that's just too d*mn expensive.

Now, before I bought the PS2 to play GT3. But back then, it was $200 for the system, there was no worry of the PS2 falling to its death. Now, the PS3 is on the rocks relying hopefully on Blu-Ray to succeed. But unless there are some really good PS3 titles that will justify the $500 tag, I'll just skip GT5 (unless it does something very specatular). Forza 2 is already coming soon, and is offering a whole lot to see, and do, and because I could find some things to do in Forza I enjoyed doing, it was played more than GT4.

Now, unless Gran Turismo 5 can
Up the physics
Show off some incredible scenery
Break though AI
and the lot
I'll pass. But of course, as said, I'm on the wall right now.

 

[Wolfe]

Live4speed already said pretty much everything I would have said in response to R P McMondo's post. ( 👍 👍 to him. I'd rep him if I didn't have to spread more rep around first... )

Well, code Live For Speed and GTR to run on the PS2 and compare engines. Then maybe we'll talk.

Explain how that is necessary to qualify the statement that Live for Speed and GTR are more realistic than GT4. R P McMondo said, "No other driving sim looks or feels no were near as good as ANY of the GT series." There is no mention of the PS2, or any console for that matter, in that sentence.
If we were claiming "LFS and GTR are better PS2 driving sims than GT4" then you'd actually have a point.

I would make the point that Enthusia was able to provide plenty of realism (significantly more than GT4) despite the PS2's limitations, but of course, that would fall on deaf ears, now wouldn't it.

 

[Dave A]

Well, code Live For Speed and GTR to run on the PS2 and compare engines. Then maybe we'll talk.

Like Wolfe jsut said, that is not part of the debate, the stement read "No other driving sim looks or feels no were near as good as ANY of the GT series" which is blatantly false, we've pointed out that that is wrong buit that for some reason seems to offend some people. To bring up the put them on the PS2 and then we'll see angle is nothing more than an attempt at a get out clause for the GT series, why do you feel the need to defend it when it doesn't need defending. Regardless of how far from being the most real out there GT4 may be PD do deserve credit for the game, neither me or Wolfe would ever say they don't regardless of us thinkning the game didn't live up to it's promise or not. But anyone that makes claims like that claim Wolfe first noticed is delusional. Yes the fact it was on the PS2 may well have limited what they could do physics wise, but the bottom line is, it is not the most realistic out there. If there is a more fun and more realistic game out there that I enjoy more than the GT series, why should I have to pretend that I think the GT series is oh so great just because it's limited by the PS2?

And by the way, I disagree with your and Wolfe's assessment that EPR is superior to GT4 in handling, feel and immersion. That may be my opinion, but as far as I'm concerned that is indeed a fact.

The only fact in there is that it is fact that you think EPR isn't as realistic. As for me, I never once said EPR was more realistic, I think the two games are too close to call, where one fails the other picks up the mantle so to speak. All I said was that imo EPR is the better game, that doesn't translate to I think EPR is more realistic, because as I said, I think the two are a very close call.

 

[fasj6418]

gran turismo was originaly made as trying to be a hardcore sim. but it was released and turned out to be a big hit, reaching mass market.

now you don´t do a heavy-ultra hardcore game if you want to get mass market. so maybe they had a vision of making as realistic as possible, but i think sony forced them to drop.

if GT5 is life like realistic, like some PC sims, it might not sell well because stupid casual gamers will be frustrated. maybe that´s why they already think about a gran turismo for boys, like KY once said

 

[R P McMondo]

Well, code Live For Speed and GTR to run on the PS2 and compare engines. Then maybe we'll talk.

And by the way, I disagree with your and Wolfe's assessment that EPR is superior to GT4 in handling, feel and immersion. That may be my opinion, but as far as I'm concerned that is indeed a fact.

I take my hat off to you Tenacious D. Someone with some sense. It's only other's opinions that count for what they enjoy the most. I've played pretty much every racing sim that I've thought of worth playing...On any console. There are GOOD racing sims to be played out there, sims I've had hours of enjoyment out of. Driving sims are the only reason I go and buy a playstation 2 or an X-Box 360, or whatever. For me, on a personal level, PD has the edge over anything else.

Since the loss of horse power limits from GT2's races, AND the lack of AI from all GT's, it's down to the player himself to make the game as easy or as difficult as he wishes. It's all well and good thrashing around with super soft racing slicks posting mega fast times, but try the road tyres for size and any true racing sim fan will know what "Depth" and "Feel" and "REALISM" are all about!

The thing is PD have a tried and tested formula in the way they present their achievements, a structure to the game that GT fans know and love and definitely one that works and doesn't need fixing.

Did I say I'm really enjoying this discussion?

 

[Dave A]

R C McMondo, there is a big difference between saying "I prefer Gran Turismo to all other sims" and "Nothing else can touch Gran Turismo for realism", one is an opinion and is perfectly valid, the latter is made as a statement and it's a wrong one at that. Thus it is invalid. I'm glad you are enjoying this discussion though and having just noticed that you joined only a couple of days ago, welcome to GTP. Don't take any difference of opinion as personal btw, especially if it's coming from me, it's not meant that way.

 

[LeadSlead#2]

There is opinion and there is fact in my post, the opinion is clearly stated as opinion ie I preffer EPR to GT4 as a game and I fully appreciate the fact that not everyone does, I fully appreciate the fact that not everyone wants exactlyey what I want from the GT series too. The there's the fact, the fact is GT4 doesn't have much new over GT1 in terms of the way you play the game, the structure the core options ect. The fact is GT4 isn't running on the most advanced or realistic physics engien out there, and it isn't the most realistic game out there. The fact is that GT3 didn't use the PS2 to it's full capacity. Thoes are facts, now the opinion side of my argument wasn't the main point of the argument, but it is the side of it that is open to debate. Comments like "No other driving sim looks or feels no were near as good as ANY of the GT series" are blatantly wrong.

Ok, you're not even trying.

Gran Turismo 5...the first GT game I'm sitting on the wall. It's downside right now is that it's sitting on a $500 system that's just too d*mn expensive.

Now, before I bought the PS2 to play GT3. But back then, it was $200 for the system, there was no worry of the PS2 falling to its death. Now, the PS3 is on the rocks relying hopefully on Blu-Ray to succeed. But unless there are some really good PS3 titles that will justify the $500 tag, I'll just skip GT5 (unless it does something very specatular). Forza 2 is already coming soon, and is offering a whole lot to see, and do, and because I could find some things to do in Forza I enjoyed doing, it was played more than GT4.

Now, unless Gran Turismo 5 can
Up the physics
Show off some incredible scenery
Break though AI
and the lot
I'll pass. But of course, as said, I'm on the wall right now.

I fail to see how being 500$ would cause the PS3 to be "on the rocks". People were shelling out 900$ and sometimes more last year for XBOX 360, so why would'nt they do the same for PS3?

 

[Dave A]

I would have said look at the time of the post but given your no in the UK that wouldn't mean much to you. I was more tired that night that this one, put it that way .

 

[Wolfe]

I take my hat off to you Tenacious D. Someone with some sense. It's only other's opinions that count for what they enjoy the most. I've played pretty much every racing sim that I've thought of worth playing...On any console. There are GOOD racing sims to be played out there, sims I've had hours of enjoyment out of. Driving sims are the only reason I go and buy a playstation 2 or an X-Box 360, or whatever. For me, on a personal level, PD has the edge over anything else.

Since the loss of horse power limits from GT2's races, AND the lack of AI from all GT's, it's down to the player himself to make the game as easy or as difficult as he wishes. It's all well and good thrashing around with super soft racing slicks posting mega fast times, but try the road tyres for size and any true racing sim fan will know what "Depth" and "Feel" and "REALISM" are all about!

The thing is PD have a tried and tested formula in the way they present their achievements, a structure to the game that GT fans know and love and definitely one that works and doesn't need fixing.

Did I say I'm really enjoying this discussion?

If your second post in this thread had gone something like this one here, I might not have even bothered responding to it. See, now you're using your head, and talking with a lot more sense.

I still disagree with you, but instead of feeling the need to attempt to refute your statements, I have only a simple and nonaggressive question for you: Which other driving sims have you played? Specifically, have you tried Enthusia Professional Racing (the PS2 sim that live4speed and I prefer over GT4), or any PC sims like Live for Speed or GTR?

In my experience, I've found that when someone believes that GT4 is the pinnacle of driving simulations, they usually haven't tried any of those three games. I don't mean to insinuate anything by that -- it's simply the truth.

I fail to see how being 500$ would cause the PS3 to be "on the rocks". People were shelling out 900$ and sometimes more last year for XBOX 360, so why would'nt they do the same for PS3?

A most-likely inferior online system, a rumbleless controller, the lame press conference at this year's E3, the untested technologies and the negative rumors that have been surrounding them and the system itself...being the last next-gen console to hit the market...

I don't necessarily agree with all of those reasons, but all of them will probably affect sales, if only by a little.

 

[McLaren]

Ok, you're not even trying.


I fail to see how being 500$ would cause the PS3 to be "on the rocks". People were shelling out 900$ and sometimes more last year for XBOX 360, so why would'nt they do the same for PS3?

Read it again.

Now, the PS3 is on the rocks relying hopefully on Blu-Ray to succeed

This is just like what did happen to Beta Max. If Blu Ray fails, that's it. It'll only come down to games.

 

[HoffY]

a few have mentioned the topic of how gamers/cars are put to test with others. Limit on horse power for example. Really there is only one fair way to test driving skill... take out all the variables. That includes horse power. Because simply putting a limit to the HP that cars have doesnt take away the power to weight ratio which ultimate depicts the majority of a vehicles performance. Just thought i'd mention that.

There's really no reason to put different car's in comparison together when there are so many variables. Even different drivers because that is a huge variable.

anyways carry on hehe

 

[R P McMondo]

R C McMondo, there is a big difference between saying "I prefer Gran Turismo to all other sims" and "Nothing else can touch Gran Turismo for realism", one is an opinion and is perfectly valid, the latter is made as a statement and it's a wrong one at that. Thus it is invalid. I'm glad you are enjoying this discussion though and having just noticed that you joined only a couple of days ago, welcome to GTP. Don't take any difference of opinion as personal btw, especially if it's coming from me, it's not meant that way.

Okay, I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this matter, what I've quoted in previous posts is just the way I see it.

You are correct, I more or less stumbled on this site a couple of days ago and thought, what the heck...I'll have my say, and I've enjoyed every minute of it. No doubt I'll cause more controversy in the future...Hehehe!

Well thanks indeed for the welcome. I certainly won't take any comment against my posts as being personal, otherwise I wouldn't have joined the debate in the first place. After all, we're all fans of the same game genre and discussions of this matter is the way it's meant to be...Or am I wrong? lol

 

[R P McMondo]

If your second post in this thread had gone something like this one here, I might not have even bothered responding to it. See, now you're using your head, and talking with a lot more sense.

I still disagree with you, but instead of feeling the need to attempt to refute your statements, I have only a simple and nonaggressive question for you: Which other driving sims have you played? Specifically, have you tried Enthusia Professional Racing (the PS2 sim that live4speed and I prefer over GT4), or any PC sims like Live for Speed or GTR?

In my experience, I've found that when someone believes that GT4 is the pinnacle of driving simulations, they usually haven't tried any of those three games. I don't mean to insinuate anything by that -- it's simply the truth.

Well thankyou, but please, I'm not at all attempting to refute anything I've said in past posts. I stand by every word I've said and I can FULLY understand as to why you may think that I'm talking bull, and that's fair enough by me. I'm by no means saying that PD or the GT series are perfect because they're not, other sims have GT by the throat in some aspects and...Ahem, I'm jealous of that!!! And if PD don't get these fixed for PS3 I'll show my big fat swinging balls in a high street shop window. But for me GT can't be matched as a solid all round performer, GT is the one I'd go for every time.

I've pretty much played, owned most of the decent sims. Enthusia Professional Racing, PGR 1 & 2, Forza Motorsport, Colin Mcrae, WRC and the like and I've enjoyed them all in what they've had to offer. Just getting into
L4S at the moment and again I'm enjoying it, great online fun! But I just can't see why you think that's better than GT4, that's why GT is still there at the top...The Daddy!

 

[Wolfe]

Well thankyou, but please, I'm not at all attempting to refute anything I've said in past posts. I stand by every word I've said and I can FULLY understand as to why you may think that I'm talking bull, and that's fair enough by me. I'm by no means saying that PD or the GT series are perfect because they're not, other sims have GT by the throat in some aspects and...Ahem, I'm jealous of that!!! And if PD don't get these fixed for PS3 I'll show my big fat swinging balls in a high street shop window. But for me GT can't be matched as a solid all round performer, GT is the one I'd go for every time.

I did think you were talking bull, but not anymore. I can relate -- when I jump into a conversation like this despite being new to a forum, I tend to start out strong, too, tapering back into a "friendlier" tone, like you've done. In any case, I understand your view now -- you love Gran Turismo because it's a jack of all trades, so to speak.

I still disagree with that statement, and would personally tip my hat towards Enthusia in that category. It may not have the sheer amount of content that GT4 provides, but it's still a Gran-Turismo-style game, and I still think it's much more realistic, and much more fun to play.

I've pretty much played, owned most of the decent sims. Enthusia Professional Racing, PGR 1 & 2, Forza Motorsport, Colin Mcrae, WRC and the like and I've enjoyed them all in what they've had to offer.

I'm the same way. As a racing-game junkie, I've played all sorts of racing games for various platforms, and can enjoy arcade racers and driving sims equally.

However, I wouldn't call PGR or Colin McRae "sims" myself... PGR is definitely an arcade racer, albeit one that has at least some sense of reality. As for Colin McRae, I have yet to play the first, second, or fifth entries in the series, but like all CodeMasters games, the third and fourth entries were so floaty and arcadey I felt like I was driving a hovercraft!

As for Forza...what a disappointment. It's floaty and arcadey just like the Colin McRae and TRD series, but unlike those games, it isn't any fun to play, either. The graphics look like a fuzzy, unfinished DirectX tech demo that was leaked onto the internet, and the Nurburgring must have been designed by a midget, because the curbs, track width, and upgrades/downgrades are all supersized. The only thing Forza is good for is tuning a car just the way you like it and admiring it in your garage before turning the game off to play something fun, like PGR2.

Just getting into L4S at the moment and again I'm enjoying it, great online fun! But I just can't see why you think that's better than GT4, that's why GT is still there at the top...The Daddy!

I think it's better than GT4 because it stands head and shoulders above every other driving sim when it comes to realism, it has excellent online code, and it features a well-designed (albeit small and fictional) set of cars and tracks.

If I even somewhat enjoyed playing GT4, it would stand a chance against LFS based on its content alone (and I'm sure that's one of the main reasons why you prefer GT4), but I don't enjoy playing it. I can't stand its physics faults. That's why I enjoy Enthusia so much -- it's like a compromise between LFS's realism and GT4's content.

 

[R P McMondo]

I did think you were talking bull, but not anymore. I can relate -- when I jump into a conversation like this despite being new to a forum, I tend to start out strong, too, tapering back into a "friendlier" tone, like you've done. In any case, I understand your view now -- you love Gran Turismo because it's a jack of all trades, so to speak.

Hehe! You're quiet right. Maybe I did wade in feet first...NOT without thinking, but more without testing the water. However, sarcasm is what everyone will get off me from time to time (and if you're really unlucky...ALL of the time) but that's just me. Like Live4Speed said, anything I say to anyone most definitely isn't meant to be personal. Anyway, wasn't that the best way to air ones grievances?

 

[Wolfe]

Whatever works. The debate seems to have drawn to a peaceful conclusion, anyway.

 

[Speedy Dan]

OT-> What!? GT3 is the best? Baloney! Well, I don't see GT3 is lame or what, but GT2 and GT4 ranks far higher on my opinion.

BT-> I hope PD better not make GT5 lame (or another GT3) when it comes out. Because I don't want to see Forza win over this battle. (:

I agree 100%!!👍

There is all this talk about GT5/VisionGT/GTHD? being an updated version of GT4. IMO, I would rather an updated version of GT4 than see history repeat itself like when GT3 came out.

 

[Dave A]

I wouldn't, I'd rather quality over content, every time. GT3 was better than GT2, and it was better than any updated GT2 with more cars and tracks would have been.

 

[Tenacious D]

L4S, you'll have to remember a few things.

This isn't going to be a port of GT4. If it was, it would probably be done already. All the issues you have with GT4 are undoubtedly related to the power shortages inherent with the PS2 architecture. Remember that Polyphony squeezed everything they could out of the PS2, and they still didn't have much room for better A.I. or eve analog bot braking! Surely you don't think they just up and forgot to work on those things.

The game being presented at Tokyo in less than two weeks is called Gran Turismo Series. Because Kazunori-sama is having his team put some work into the game, it's evidently going to include a lot of goodies in it. "Series" to me indicates that they intend to include stuff from the entire series, and surely that would make most of us happy. There are many cars and tracks from GT2 I'd like to see, such as Red Mountain Raceway and Pike's Peak. Plus, racing conversion is clamored for much more than things like damage or cockpiy view, and if they could pull that off by implementing bodykits and a paint shop with a wide range of decals and detailing options, that would be the racing mod to beat all.

Considering that the GTHD demo used elements of the GT5 engine and will be running on a system many magnitudes more powerful than the PS2, I don't expect to be playing the same game as GT4, any more than I'd expect to be playing GT2 if they included elements of it. I know I'm very excited by the prospects of this game, although I know your expectations may vary.

 

[Hapul]

I can seccond the general consensus, NO - the blu-ray discs won't affect the game. The new console, however, might

 

[akina_speedstar]

PD has been responsible now for 4 series of GT which many would agree were just as successful as the next, each are similar and different in comparison, obviously, the jump in graphics was quite obvious between GT1 - GT3 as well as the way cars reacted in "model space" The principal of the games has always remained quite similar but has been expanded thoroughly overtime, but has always been integral to the success of the game.

I cant be bothered googling and trying to find the figures for the net worth of Polyphony Digital, but I would speculate that its safe to assume that PD has made many millions (possibly billions? though not sure, a billion is a great deal of money?) of dollars through the its GT franchise. It would therefore IMO be safe to assume that the marketing team at PD would be frantically making sure that this game is far superior to their last installments. Also the level of "quality control" over these games would be quite high after releasing 4 series, as the production team head by Kaz would have a firm view of the criteria associated with making such a production. Corporate worth will probably in this case surpass the importance of a release of a blu-ray disc.