GT5 might be lame

[JohnBM01]

Easy, Tenacious D and [Wolfe2x7[/B]! We're all cool here. I'm happy with GT4 and Enthusia. I'm even okay with Forza, though I don't have an XBOX. I haven't played Live for Speed yet, so I can't say. We can all provide our own comments without as much discretion. Let's not fight too much, my buddies. GT4 and Enthusia are BOTH great games. GT4's the juggernaut while Enthusia is the underdog that could (and did, actually). In fact, just look at my thread talking about what PD can learn from Enthusia. I do have a host of threads I've started where I try to tackle certain issues concerning the next GT. Do a search, people.

Anyone else care to talk about the transition from GT2 to GT3 and lessons learned thereof?

 

[32' Lover]

GT5 will be very lame if they don't release it on PS2

who in the world could afford a PS3??

very true.

 

[Dave A]

Only it's not true at all, anyone that thinks that is true really needs a reality check.

 

[Swift]

GT5 will be very lame if they don't release it on PS2

who in the world could afford a PS3??

very true.

For those of you that haven't realised it yet. The PS2 is at the end of its cycle. GTV will be on PS3. Just accept it. If you don't want to buy a PS3 because they're too expensive then don't buy one.

All the moaning about the PS3 being to expensive is really pointless. You can't change it, it is what it is and if you want to play GTV this time next year(we hope) then you're going to need a PS3. If you're content with the PS2 then more power to you.

BTW, we do have a thread on the PS3 being expensive already.
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=83836

 

[Ominous One]

I disagree and I'm totally "What the Hell-ing" this thread. PD has significantly improved over the course of GT. GT3, I thought it was pretty damn awesome in terms of graphics and close to life physics. Consequently they've further improved GT3 into GT4 (Huge selection of cars, more tracks..etc), which was/is an incredible achievement. My point is, If GT4 was this good, then hell GTV will be damn great. However.. there's STILL one obstacle, buying the ps3.

By the way Swift, Sweet Spec V.

 

[Tenacious D]

Anyway, I apologize if you think I'm giving you non-answers, but I must say that the feeling is mutual. After all, you were the one who significantly chopped down the breadth of our discussion in post #54, posting short responses and resorting to personal remarks.

Err... yeah. I called you silly. I'm sorry you found that so offensive.

Besides, what I call non-answers are things like me pointing out that doubling the modelling task of a car isn't a free lunch, and you just ignoring the point. Your answer implies that if it takes you an hour to drive a certain distance, if you drive twice as far at the same speed it takes 60 minutes. The reason that discussing things with you is such a chore are things like this.

Anyway, you have a nice day hoping the PS3 crashes and burns. Good luck.

 

[morganhead]

why, don't you people think that it won't have more cars than GT4? what the point of this thread anyway? personally, i would love for PD to add more real-life tracks, like Indianapolis and Daytona road courses but you know....

oh, and by the way, GT2 is the best one. i hope PD can add many of the features like racing body kits and event generator

 

[Dave A]

why, don't you people think that it won't have more cars than GT4?

Because as graphics advance the ammount of detail, time and effort that have to go into modelling and texturing the cars increases, so if each car takes say twice as long to make, unless they double the number of modellers they have they will have to spend twice as long creating the same number of cars. Considering GT4 took 4 years I don't think that would be a good option. That's why GT3 had so many less cars than GT2.

 

[Famine]

For those of you that haven't realised it yet. The PS2 is at the end of its cycle. GTV will be on PS3. Just accept it. If you don't want to buy a PS3 because they're too expensive then don't buy one.

All the moaning about the PS3 being to expensive is really pointless. You can't change it, it is what it is and if you want to play GTV this time next year(we hope) then you're going to need a PS3. If you're content with the PS2 then more power to you.

BTW, we do have a thread on the PS3 being expensive already.
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=83836

Cutting almost everything out of your post, you've got me wondering what the cover car will be... If it's called GTV, surely it must be an Alfa Romeo...

 

[Tenacious D]

It would be nice to get some word from some developer on how much more labor is involved in doing these next gen games. Unfortunately, Polyphony is about as tight lipped as a top secret defense contractor.

With the modelling tools available, I hear that the workload isn't necessarily doubled, but it depends. There are some high res pics floating around the net of modelled Mercedez-Benz, Ferrari, Porsche and Lamborghinis which may reflect the car models we'll see in Forza 2 and Gran Turismo 5, or even GT Series. Those car models have a stunning level of detail, and may indeed take much longer to render properly, two or three times that. And of course modelling the car interiors would double that.

Another matter is whether damage will be included in GT5. This will involve an incredible amount of detail in every car model, since Kazunori-sama insists that damage will only happen when he's happy with the results. He probably wants something approaching a manufacturer's car crash modeller. This would require every significant part of each car model to include structure, impact, stress and failure physics. Forza 1 has a pretty reasonable damage model, but it's still rather basic with just a few modelling effects for each section of the car, and you can't total a car. There are evidently some good crash dynamics in other games but I'm unfamiliar with the amount of detail they have.

But those are just car issues. There are also the tracks, how detailed they are, crowds and environmental effects, weather and time progression, the structure of the used car market, all sorts of things that they're dealing with. PD has evidently been working on GT5 for at least a year, possibly two or three, but with indication that Gran Turismo HD is going to be released as a game, it's entirely possible that Gran Turismo 5 isn't going to appear until Kaz is happy that much of the racing world in its entirety is included in the game.

How long would that take?? Who knows!

 

[Wolfe]

Err... yeah. I called you silly. I'm sorry you found that so offensive.

Besides, what I call non-answers are things like me pointing out that doubling the modelling task of a car isn't a free lunch, and you just ignoring the point. Your answer implies that if it takes you an hour to drive a certain distance, if you drive twice as far at the same speed it takes 60 minutes. The reason that discussing things with you is such a chore are things like this.

Oh, and this wasn't an answer?

My point was that the demands are the same. To put it into terms that you'll understand, having a pretty-looking car is useful for people who drive from the outside view or use photomode, but not as useful as a good interior view for those who drive from the inside/bumper view.

The only reason why it seems like a huge demand for PD's resources is because PD has fallen into the habit of excluding those interior views. If they had included them from the beginning, we probably wouldn't have quite as many cars to choose from, but the inclusion of the view would seem normal.

If you demand a detailed exterior, you're demanding a lot of modelling work. If you demand a detailed interior, you're demanding a lot of modelling work. Either way, PD has to work hard, and although your point that it would double the modelling time is a valid one, that doesn't mean that PD shouldn't go for it.

See, you're not claiming that interiors should be ignored because modelling them would take longer. If that were the case, you might as well claim that they shouldn't bother making GT5 any better than GT4, because it'll take longer to improve upon the game. What you are claiming is that interiors should be ignored because you don't think they're necessary.

In other words, the basis of your point was opinion, we all know that you never change your opinions, and the topic of interiors wasn't the main point of our discussion. So I dropped it.

Anyway, you have a nice day hoping the PS3 crashes and burns. Good luck.

I don't hate Sony, but they're not my absolute favorite company, either. As such, it's fun to watch giants fall.

Easy, Tenacious D and [Wolfe2x7[/B]! We're all cool here. I'm happy with GT4 and Enthusia. I'm even okay with Forza, though I don't have an XBOX. I haven't played Live for Speed yet, so I can't say. We can all provide our own comments without as much discretion. Let's not fight too much, my buddies. GT4 and Enthusia are BOTH great games. GT4's the juggernaut while Enthusia is the underdog that could (and did, actually). In fact, just look at my thread talking about what PD can learn from Enthusia. I do have a host of threads I've started where I try to tackle certain issues concerning the next GT. Do a search, people.

Anyone else care to talk about the transition from GT2 to GT3 and lessons learned thereof?

You're right, but discussions/debates like this usually end up staying where they got started.

By the way, you do realize that playing the middle-man like this sorta contradicts your user title, right?

 

[Scaff]

For the record, when you speak of those members with real-life experience, you cannot exclude Scaff, and although I probably shouldn't include him in this discussion without his knowledge or permission, I would like to point out the fact that he believes that GT4 and Enthusia are equally realistic, though flawed in different ways.

Scaff is indeed one of the people I was thinking of, but
there are plenty of others.

Look at all the trouble I go around causing, LOL.

I think that most people are aware of my thoughts on both GT4 and Enthusia, I play them both regularly and find them both to be equally enjoyable and flawed.

They both excell in certain areas and both have huge flaws, however my own thoughts on the 'realism' of all driving sims are also quite well know.

Indeed this very topic was the subject of a recent thread I started over in the GT4 sub-forum, thats the lack of any real feedback in every single driving game/sim. Without these forces acting upon the body we lose a major part of driving, trust me Wolfe this is going to be one of the biggest things you find when you attend a trackday (and if its not then you're not going fast enough).

Regards

Scaff

 

[Tenacious D]

Poking around, I found the thread. I have to say that Wolfe is one guy who seems to always want his word to be last. Interesting dude.

Anyway, I suppose since Polyphony is evidently going to release Gran Turismo for PS3 in some form soon, mixing GT4 with GT5, and possibly GT1, 2 and 3 as well, I guess we can look forward to posts like "GT.... might be lame"

 

[Wolfe]

I have to say that Wolfe is one guy who seems to always want his word to be last. Interesting dude.

Sorry, Tenacious D, but it takes two to play that game.

Besides, I'm not in this to "win." I'm in this because I disagree with your statements and don't mind taking the time to attempt to refute them.The only ones who can "win" this argument are the moderators.

If you want me to leave you alone, then say so, or put me on your ignore list. Otherwise, the mere fact that this is a forum, a place of discussion, means that I have the right to disagree with you (in a civil manner) as often as I like.

 

[Patrik]

the graphics is not the only thing that'll be improved thanks to PS3 but
physics, realistic sorroundings, and a lot of realistic touches as well!

a small but annoying problem from earlier GT's is the loading times, which will be much much faster on the new hard drive

 

[red7]

I think the kaz interview nullifies this thread.

 

[LeadSlead#2]

Car sliding and spinning is not as precise as you guys insist. Unless you're Tiff Needell or some drift master, cars are not going to behave in a predictable, repeatable way when traction is lost, especially when you leave the track.

Actually, it's funny you mention that.
Being a Div. 1 qualified racer, I believe my gran turismo ability is fairly well-spoken for. I believe I'm good enough to gripe if I can't repeat a performance that a real-life driver equal to my GT caliber could repeat.
You think a competitive drifter can repeat it, then you should think I can/should repeat it.
I can repeat road races, drags, and rallys in GT4.
But not drifts. (partially because I never tried) admittedly.

Fact is, It's a video game, people can do things they can't in real life.
unless you think HOLL01 is one of the greatest LMP racers of all time.

This would require every significant part of each car model to include structure, impact, stress and failure physics.

Good point.
Perhaps they should nail down driving physics before they get crash physics and interiors down.
anybody disagree with that?

ha! I have the last word now!

 

[JohnBM01]

If we keep trying to have these "I got the last word!" contests, then Moderators will have the last word... and eventually locking this thread in the process. Not to sound cheesy, but Moderators may ALWAYS have the last word. So let's kind of can this sillyness and get back on topic. Dig?

 

[R P McMondo]

Hehehe!!!.......HEHEHEHE!!!! Ehem! Did someone say GT5 may be lame?

 

[R P McMondo]

Just a minute...GT5 May be...LAME??? I think NOT! PD have created the greatest and most in depth racing sim there has ever been. I agree that the transition from GT2 to GT3 wasn't perfect. I mean, there were certain aspects from GT2 (like the horse power limits to the majority of the races) that were not included in GT3...And GT4 for that matter. But what PD had taken away with one hand, they were generously giving with the other. No other driving sim looks or feels no were near as good as ANY of the GT series, and as for predicting that GT5 "May be lame" on PS3 just because of what format it may be on...I just can't EVER see it being so! Kazunori Yamauchi and his team will no doubt pour their heart and soul into whatever incarnation they decide to give us for the next gen PS. Gran Turismo HD may well be just a high def GT4 to keep us all going, but the true PS3 GT will be something the likes of which we will have never seen before, and that I'll stake my life on!

Oh yeah...For me, GT is the only reason why I'll be buying a PS3, so by the time GT5 hits the shops expect the PS3 price to have dropped quiet a bit as well, as did the PS2 for GT3.

 

[JohnBM01]

I think this is something people do to try to dilute our interest into an upcoming game. Unlike some people, I don't like to resort to calling a game sequel as a failure just because it may not be as good when going to a different console. People don't give games a chance. Hell... they'd give Forza and HALO a chance. But not GT. This a double standard or a lack of optimism. Let me take you back to a quote I made about GT4:

(indirect(?) quote) "If being a good game is a crime, then GT4 would be on Death Row getting the electric chair." -me in the GT4 forums, either in 2004 or 2005

I'm giving GT5 a chance. A better title would have been "GT5 Might Not be as Successful on the PS3" or "Concerns Over GT5 on the PS3." I COMPLETELY disagree with the notion that the game will be lame if it becomes GT3.

 

[Dave A]

GT3 managed to be the best GT game in the series imo, that was the first step into the PS2 realm. There is absolutely no reason at all for GT5 not to be good. Less content is probable, but content does not equal quality.

 

[LeadSlead#2]

There is absolutely no reason at all for GT5 not to be good. Less content is probable, but content does not equal quality.

Amen.
PD's developed a pattern of:
first game on system = quality over quantity
second on system = quantity over, wait, what's that?
this will continue, except they might improve quality on the second game this time

 

[dylansan]

I just thought of a good analogy. Think of it as gears in a car. At the begginning of first gear, or console, you are going pretty slow, as in GT1, by the end of the gear, your RPM and speed is higher. When you shift to second gear, or the second console, RPM goes down but speed goes up, so content is lowered, but the overall game has other, better things, like graphics. GT5 will be in third gear, so some things are likely to be lowered, but there will obviously be improvements.

It's more than likely that, if each console has 2 games, the second game on the console can only be better than the first, but if you go to a new console, you have to use the power of the new console to improve things like graphics, but this takes up time so you may need to toss other things until next time.

I personally think GT4 was better than GT3, and GT3 was worse than GT2, because so much was sacrificed for the better graphics. Hopefully that adds to the discussion, cause I think there were a lot of run-on sentences.

 

[Wolfe]

Just a minute...GT5 May be...LAME??? I think NOT! PD have created the greatest and most in depth racing sim there has ever been. I agree that the transition from GT2 to GT3 wasn't perfect. I mean, there were certain aspects from GT2 (like the horse power limits to the majority of the races) that were not included in GT3...And GT4 for that matter. But what PD had taken away with one hand, they were generously giving with the other. No other driving sim looks or feels no were near as good as ANY of the GT series, and as for predicting that GT5 "May be lame" on PS3 just because of what format it may be on...I just can't EVER see it being so! Kazunori Yamauchi and his team will no doubt pour their heart and soul into whatever incarnation they decide to give us for the next gen PS. Gran Turismo HD may well be just a high def GT4 to keep us all going, but the true PS3 GT will be something the likes of which we will have never seen before, and that I'll stake my life on!

Oh yeah...For me, GT is the only reason why I'll be buying a PS3, so by the time GT5 hits the shops expect the PS3 price to have dropped quiet a bit as well, as did the PS2 for GT3.

Wow....just, wow. A quote of this post should be included in the dictionary, next to the term "blind faith."

"PD have created the greatest and most in depth racing sim there has ever been..." Most in-depth? If we're talking about car and track content, sure, but the GT series has never brought anything new to the racing-game table, and the buy-car-to-win-races-to-get-money-to-upgrade-or-replace-car-to-win-races-to-get-money-to... format is starting to get a little stale. As for whether or not it's "the greatest," that's highly debatable.

"No other driving sim looks or feels no were near as good as ANY of the GT series..." Now, let's just ignore for a moment the fact that I think several driving sims/games are better than GT4. Would you seriously back up the claim that GT1 is a better driving sim than any other game made in the last 10 years? If yes, I doubt you've ever driven a car. At all.

"Kazunori Yamauchi and his team will no doubt pour their heart and soul into whatever incarnation they decide to give us for the next gen PS..." Indeed, just like how they poured their heart and soul into giving us a half-baked GT3.5 with a zillion cars (half-a-zillion if you exclude the repeats), several new tracks, two new features that have nothing to do with driving in lieu of the promised online play, and gameplay that not only didn't improve from GT3, but ended up worse than GT3. Following the "quantity over quality" motto doesn't really seem like a heartfelt thing to do, but maybe that's just me.

 

[R P McMondo]

Wow....just, wow. A quote of this post should be included in the dictionary, next to the term "blind faith."

"PD have created the greatest and most in depth racing sim there has ever been..." Most in-depth? If we're talking about car and track content, sure, but the GT series has never brought anything new to the racing-game table, and the buy-car-to-win-races-to-get-money-to-upgrade-or-replace-car-to-win-races-to-get-money-to... format is starting to get a little stale. As for whether or not it's "the greatest," that's highly debatable.

"No other driving sim looks or feels no were near as good as ANY of the GT series..." Now, let's just ignore for a moment the fact that I think several driving sims/games are better than GT4. Would you seriously back up the claim that GT1 is a better driving sim than any other game made in the last 10 years? If yes, I doubt you've ever driven a car. At all.

"Kazunori Yamauchi and his team will no doubt pour their heart and soul into whatever incarnation they decide to give us for the next gen PS..." Indeed, just like how they poured their heart and soul into giving us a half-baked GT3.5 with a zillion cars (half-a-zillion if you exclude the repeats), several new tracks, two new features that have nothing to do with driving in lieu of the promised online play, and gameplay that not only didn't improve from GT3, but ended up worse than GT3. Following the "quantity over quality" motto doesn't really seem like a heartfelt thing to do, but maybe that's just me.

Ahhh Wolfie Boy...You make me laugh! First things first, I stand by every single word I say about the GT series, and as for "blind faith"...Sorry buddy, but going by past GT games, there's NO SUCH THING!!!

Tell me WHY the GT format is starting to get a little stale? More or less every GAME ever made (not just driving games) works on the same principle. You start with nothing and slowly work your way to the top, or haven't you figured that out yet? lol And let me just inform you of something you might not know...Well blatantly obvious you DON'T know. Gran Turismo is THE yard stick of every driving sim, it's what every other driving game developer and his dog aim to beat, it's GT they sit down with and ask each other "How can we better this?" How do I know this for sure? There's these things you buy with lots and lots of letters in them which are joined together that make words, then sentences, then articles and when you read these articles you get to know about loads of stuff. I know GT have fallen behind in recent years with certain aspects of the game such as more cars on track and online racing, but remember (and I know this must be difficult for you) GT has only ever been as big or as good as the console will allow it to be. So PLEASE think again when you use the term "highly debatable" when the greatness of GT is bought into question!

HOLD ON!!!!! Your not looking at what I've said in the context in which it was meant! So...Let me SPELL it out for you. GT1 set the standard full stop, no question! Game developers were still picking their jaws up off the floor when GT2 hit the scene, and from then on other developers have been playing a game of their own...Called catch up. Yes they have the advantage over PD in certain areas and if you want to slag someone off for that, then there's this huge corporation called Sony. Therefore Gran Turismo changed the way we play driving sims and that's the way it will remain, and nobody (yourself included) will EVER take that away from PD.

WHAT??? Half baked GT3.5? JEEEESUS! Everyone with half a brain cell already knew that GT4 wouldn't be a huge leap above GT3. (Hello!!! Still on the same hardware!) In general a much bigger game with subtle changes in graphics and a BRAND NEW, built from scratch physics engine would be enough to satisfy us TRUE GT fans, so if your happy enough with your Sega Rally then who am I to argue? My advise to you is, if you want to get the full driving experience of what ANY Gran Turismo game can give a player...THEN GET SOME PRACTICE IN!!!

 

[Dave A]

Ahhh Wolfie Boy...You make me laugh! First things first, I stand by every single word I say about the GT series, and as for "blind faith"...Sorry buddy, but going by past GT games, there's NO SUCH THING!!!

Yes there is, I had too much blind faith that GT4 would be the best GT game yet, imo it wasn't. I was adamnt that the online mode would be included because PD said so, it wasn't. With every new GT release "surely they've fixed the AI, they must have" goes through my head, the never have.

Tell me WHY the GT format is starting to get a little stale? More or less every GAME ever made (not just driving games) works on the same principle.

Because not a damn thing has changed in the last 10 years. The principal of buyign and selling andtuning is great and fine, but PD haven't added nay more depth to the tuning or the buying or selling in 10 years.

You start with nothing and slowly work your way to the top, or haven't you figured that out yet? lol And let me just inform you of something you might not know...Well blatantly obvious you DON'T know. Gran Turismo is THE yard stick of every driving sim, it's what every other driving game developer and his dog aim to beat, it's GT they sit down with and ask each other "How can we better this?"

Not really, the only game that imo comes close to GT4 in terms of as a rival is EPR, and EPR is better imo. Forza is on another platform so they arn't in direct competition, Race Driver games are nothing like GT and neither are Need for speed games. That pretty much covers all the big guns.

GT has only ever been as big or as good as the console will allow it to be. So PLEASE think again when you use the term "highly debatable" when the greatness of GT is bought into question!

Not it's not, GT3 didn't use the full capacity of the PS2, GT4 supposedly did, yet I still think GT3 is the better game.

HOLD ON!!!!! Your not looking at what I've said in the context in which it was meant! So...Let me SPELL it out for you. GT1 set the standard full stop, no question!

Pretty much yes, back in 97 GT1 brought the idea of realisticly handing cars to the masses.

Game developers were still picking their jaws up off the floor when GT2 hit the scene, and from then on other developers have been playing a game of their own...Called catch up.

No they haven't, like I said, EPR is Konami's first effort and imo it's a better game, also there are far more reaslitic and more enjoyable sim's out there that GT4. GT4's trump card is it's content.

Therefore Gran Turismo changed the way we play driving sims and that's the way it will remain, and nobody (yourself included) will EVER take that away from PD.

Nobody want's to take away what PD did when they brought to GT series to us, we just want them to realsie that we're not all that keen on paying £40 to play the same game we paid £40 to play 10 years ago.

WHAT??? Half baked GT3.5? JEEEESUS! Everyone with half a brain cell already knew that GT4 wouldn't be a huge leap above GT3.

In content it was, in terms of physics it was better, but as a game to play and enjoy it wasn't as good as GT3, nor did it introduce much new to the series from GT3.

(Hello!!! Still on the same hardware!) In general a much bigger game with subtle changes in graphics and a BRAND NEW, built from scratch physics engine would be enough to satisfy us TRUE GT fans, so if your happy enough with your Sega Rally then who am I to argue?

You a true GT fan why? Because you have no desire for PD to push the series harder than they have been doing, because you don't see any potential the series has that so far hasn't een exploited. I beg to differ, the true GT fans are thoes that want the best for the series, thoes like JohnBM01 who put a lot of thought into ways that the GT series could improve yet still give credit where credit is due. You're giveing credit where it;s due but at the same time ignoring anything that they haven't done right.

My advise to you is, if you want to get the full driving experience of what ANY Gran Turismo game can give a player...THEN GET SOME PRACTICE IN!!!

I assure you, Wolf probably does not need much practice, he's also played on other sims, some that offer a more realistic experience to GT4. If you wand to experience something more realistic you'll have to put GT4 down.

Yes GT4 is a massive game, the content alone deserves praise, yes the physics are better than GT3, no it is not the most realistic racing game on the market, neither is EPR neither is Forza. And imo, no GT4 is not a fun to play as GT3 or EPR.

 

[Tenacious D]

I think you need to consider that when you're posting "in your opinion," that doesn't make you correct. Your opinions are no more valid than anyone else's, so you're basically arguing a bunch of feelings against someone else's. Your feelings and opinions are only valid for yourself.

And by the way, insisting that Gran Turismo hasn't progressed simply means "in your opinion" that the improvements Polyphony has made aren't worth your while, and that's all it means. Almost everyone else on the forums have different "feelings" than you do.

 

[-Cheezman-]

I just wanna say, GT5 won't be lame. Hard drive support alone will make it kill any other GT game.

I have my GT4 and GT3 on my PS2 hard drive, and they flat out work better, load faster, and play smoother than from a DVD. If GT5 supports just allowing us to put textures alone to the PS3 HDD, then the game will just feel/look better.

Plus, the more disk space polyphony can use, the better. Even though GT4 was only 5 gigs, just look at the content and graphics, give them 20GB, Holy Sh....crap!

As for which is better? None, they all are great!

 

[Dave A]

I think you need to consider that when you're posting "in your opinion," that doesn't make you correct. Your opinions are no more valid than anyone else's, so you're basically arguing a bunch of feelings against someone else's. Your feelings and opinions are only valid for yourself.

And by the way, insisting that Gran Turismo hasn't progressed simply means "in your opinion" that the improvements Polyphony has made aren't worth your while, and that's all it means. Almost everyone else on the forums have different "feelings" than you do.

There is opinion and there is fact in my post, the opinion is clearly stated as opinion ie I preffer EPR to GT4 as a game and I fully appreciate the fact that not everyone does, I fully appreciate the fact that not everyone wants exactlyey what I want from the GT series too. The there's the fact, the fact is GT4 doesn't have much new over GT1 in terms of the way you play the game, the structure the core options ect. The fact is GT4 isn't running on the most advanced or realistic physics engien out there, and it isn't the most realistic game out there. The fact is that GT3 didn't use the PS2 to it's full capacity. Thoes are facts, now the opinion side of my argument wasn't the main point of the argument, but it is the side of it that is open to debate. Comments like "No other driving sim looks or feels no were near as good as ANY of the GT series" are blatantly wrong.