GT5:P vs Forza 2 comparison.

[grenadeshark]

I did some searching and I haven't found this type of comparison on these forums. I owned an rx8 for 2 years and have been to a few track events with it. I have tuned rx8's in prologue and forza 2 and driven the stock versions. Here is my comparison of the 2 games based on these facts.

This is a long thread, read at your own risk.

rx8 in forza stock.

265 hp
180 tq
1406 kg/3100 lbs

07 rx8 type S in GT5 stock
281 hp
180 tq
1310 kg/2888 lbs
(running s2/s2. Using the same tire to be identical to GT4 setup)

03 rx8 type S in GT4 stock(before/after oil change)
281 hp / 295 hp
180 tq / 189 tq
1310 kg/2888 lbs
(running s2/s2. Definitely the stock tire in GT4)


The track is suzuka.

EDIT**** New times run with steering wheel and full screen(made GT5 times faster)

With pro physics on(s2/s2), I ran a 2:27.571 in GT5.
Standard physics (s2/s2) 2:25.45
Forza 2:26
GT4 2:26.3(s2/s2)
Pro physics (n3/n3), 2:37.9
Pro physics (s1/s1) 2:28.788

Here is the rx7 comparison asked by another user in this thread.

Forza:
02 Mazda rx7 Spirit R type A
280 hp
231 tq
1260 kg/2778 lbs

GT5
02 Mazda rx7 Spirit R type A
293 HP
245 tq
1270 kg/2799 lbs

GT5 rx7 pro physics(n3/n3) 2:34.52
GT5 rx7 pro physics(s1/s1) 2:26.9
Forza rx7 (stock tires) 2:19.5

One thing I have noticed is GT5 hp/tq numbers being wrong in many circumstances. I am not sure if they are doing the GT4 method and making
HP/TQ after oil changes or what.




That car in forza is a C477
That car in GT5 is a 526pp


I am surprised how close the stock cars perform compared to each other. That is impressive as that means both games have really put in the time to make their cars as realistic as possible. Once modding comes into play, the games really get separated.

I then used one of my Tuned rx8 in GT5 and attempted to make a forza copy. I tuned all the settings to very similar and then began performance upgrades in both games. The only items I bought were ones required to allow the car to have tunable parts.

In forza, i tuned the car for
HP 329
TQ 223
Weight 1233kg/2720lbs
First upgrade on tire compound(sport compound)

In GT5, I tuned the car for
HP 333
TQ 207 (could not get similar to forza)
Weight 1231kg/2713lbs
s3/s3 tires

In GT4, I tuned the car for (before/after oil change)
HP 322/338
TQ 205/216
Weight 1192/2628 lbs
s3/s3 tires

I came up with some interesting results:
Forza:
1st 51
2nd 82
3rd 115
4th 137
5th 160
6th 174

GT5
1st 49
2nd 79
3rd 112
4th 133
5th 155
6th 173

GT4
1st 50
2nd 77
3rd 109
4th 135
5th 156
6th 178 (was a bit lower gear, couldn't match GT5 and forza exactly)


This was top speeds in each gear with the exact same gearing. I bought the adjustable transmission in forza to achieve this. Every ratio and the FD was as close to exactly the same as possible.

A lap around suzuka in forza was 2:17.179. To get to a 2:17 in GT5, I had to move to R compound tires in GT5 (pro physics). In GT4, I ran a 2:19.5

EDIT ****

Well results are in. I tuned both cars again trying to get them even closer then before.

This time around the forza rx8 is running 329 hp/223 tq/ 1240kg/2734 lbs.

I took a few of the mods I had used to be able to customize the car more out of the rx8 in forza as well. I also ran it with stock tires and the first compound tires again.

Forza stock tires with tune. 2:19.1
Forza sport tires with tune. 2:17.6
GT5 (standard physics) s3s/s3 with tune. 2:18.5.
GT5 (pro physics) s3/s3 with tune 2:21.
GT4 s3/s3 with tune 2:19.5

Here are some of the conclusions I have come to after testing these games.

Forza is more realistic off the line. From a dead start it requires throttle modulation to get the best acceleration. GT5, just max redline and close your eyes(like every other GT game).

Forza is much easier to control on the limits. If you make a mistake, the game is much more forgiving. Throttle modulation can save you from almost anything. In fact, corner entry and exit angles are not as important IMO because of the ability to control the car with the throttle.

The cars in forza are just flat out easier to drive fast. It only takes me a few tries to really feel like I have put down a good lap in forza. Sometimes, it could take up to 10 laps in gran turismo. I can't describe this effect in numbers, its just a feel thing again. When you are driving a car in forza, you always feel in control even on the edge. In gran turismo, I come so close to losing control so many times a race, its just crazy. That never happens to me in forza unless I completely botch a turn.

GT5 is much less forgiving. The cars tend to slide a lot easier in this game then forza. In forza, you can let off the gas then reapply it to regain control. In GT5, many slides can not be saved.

As far as the tracks are modeled. They don't feel the same in a lot of areas. Especially the last chicane, you have to approach the turns completely differently in each game. Not sure which one is right. The track feels bigger in GT5 IMO. The amount of space you take up vs the amount of space taken up in forza seems a little different.

Traction on the limits of grip feels different in both games. Forza, the limits come quickly and there is no feel. GT5 has much more feel associated with it. I definitely feel like I am driving in a real car in GT5 whereas I don't in forza.

On that same note, forza feels like a video game. I never believe for a second I am in a real car in a simulation game. The physics seem pretty accurate, but the feel of the game is missing.

Cars in forza are inherently faster then their GT5 counterparts. Cars in forza are comparable to their standard physics GT5 counterpart. Changing to full screen and using a steering wheel brought my times more in line with forza. The more modding you do, the bigger the gap gets.

Some other notes from a player who has played both games for over a year exclusively.

FWD cars in forza are not realistic at all. They outperform the RWD counterparts in most situations. They get too much traction. Anyone remember making a 500 HP neon SRT or equilivent in GT4? It was pretty much useless. You can't have 19" rims and 500 HP and get around a track all that fast in a FWD without traction control. In forza, you can easily build FWD to out accelerate RWD off the line and kill them in the corners.

Comparing both games to real life, I feel like each game has some things that felt right and a lot of things that didn't.

Traction off the line. Forza is much closer to what I felt in real life.

Around the track, Forza actually feels more real to me as far as physics are concerned. Granted, I am not a professional racing driver. But, my car was very easy to control around the track stock. I was able to drive it fast with little effort. In GT5, I feel like the game is intentionally made harder then it is in real life. Like the physics are overdone (think counterstrike and recoil at close ranges. In real life, it would be hard to miss at 5ft. In CS, its easy as pie to miss.)

An example would be corner exits. I never recall having any trouble with traction upon corner exits in my rx8 in RL. I could smash the gas in whatever gear I was in and always keep it on track with little trouble. In GT5, unless I am perfectly straight on a straight line, I can easily lose the rear end. The rx8 is not a tail happy car in RL. It is actually real hard to lose the rear end.

But, forza doesn't feel real from a immersion perspective. There are no bumps for the most part, no real force feedback, and the cars are faster then they should be.

Example: In GT5, the rx8 is really slow below 6k revs, but it gets faster and faster all the way to the redline in every gear.

In forza, the car has almost a linear progression through the powerband. It seems like they don't even take those graphs into consideration when designing the way a car accelerates. GT5 wins hands down in this category. Taking off from 2k revs was an exercise in futility in the rx8. GT5 nails this, forza doesnt.

Lastly, braking. Cars brake better in forza. They are easier to control while braking and brake in shorter distances. Not sure which game is more realistic. EDIT* On another note, if you turn ABS off, the cars feel very good. In gran turismo, its hard to lock the brakes even with abs off. Could be a wash here.

So that's really all I have to say about the games. I didn't cover collisions, damage, and all the other aspects of the game that have already been discussed a million times. I was trying to bring some fresh information to the discussion.

Anyone else agree/disagree?


On another note, I would like to point out how much of a pain in the ass it is to run any car you want on any track you want with any settings you want in both games. In forza, you don't get replays if you test it in the tuning menu. This makes it a pain to look at 2 cars on a similar track.

On GT5, this is even harder to do. I had to do the game in 2 player mode to test the cars with the settings I want. That is such a pain in the rear. Why is there no race testing option? Why can't I take any car I want with any settings I want and drive it on any track I want?
EDIT*** I ended up figuring out to run it in arcade mode single race with stupid CPUS. I would pass them in the first half of the lap and have full screen laps with no CPU interference.

 

[Patrik]

I thought we were done with comparisons some time ago.

 

[grenadeshark]

I thought we were done with comparisons some time ago.

I dunno, I just got back into the racing scene again. I played forza 2 for a long time, played prologue for a while, then quit both for about a year. In the last month or two, I have come back to racing and thought about doing a comparison based on a car I had really driven.

I thought that might give it a fresh angle. Maybe not...

 

[DTM]

I thought we were done with comparisons some time ago.

your right


my first thought was "not again" i only miss the video

 

[African Kat]

i've also had the pleasure of driving a real rx8 on the track and agree that gt5p has not got the physics right. The yaw movement is exaggerated and traction is too easy to break, especially with the 'N' series tyres( road tyres)

 

[PAPPACLART]

I thought we were done with comparisons some time ago.

Good write up.

I have both games, tho as I have been playing GTs for 10 years and Forza every now and then for the past few months, so I am not a complete pro at Forza.

I totally agree with the feel of the cars, in GT there seems to be so much more layers of feel, with cars having a very different feel that is not always made obvious straight away, but when you get to know a car, it is amazing how real they feel. Fortza cars are more generic and mostly have the same feel.


I kind of lost interest after the car I started out with, a GOLF GTI was tuned to 400-500bhp. (can't remember) I did no mods to the chassis what so ever, but the car still remains easily drivable, even with standard tyres. If this was the case in GT, the the GOLF would be all over the place, as it would in real life,

 

[PAPPACLART]

opps, please delete

 

[Jack]

Yeah this thread has been done before.

i've also had the pleasure of driving a real rx8 on the track and agree that gt5p has not got the physics right. The yaw movement is exaggerated and traction is too easy to break, especially with the 'N' series tyres( road tyres)

Havent driven one so cant compare. But the tyres fitted new on an RX8 are represented to be S1's in the game.

Edit: Missed the X off the RX8. My bad.

 

[grenadeshark]

Yeah this thread has been done before.



Havent driven one so cant compare. But the tyres fitted new on an R8 are represented to be S1's in the game.

With s3s, the car still felt more squirly then in RL IMO.

 

[Exorcet]

Interesting comparison, I'd really like a chance to get some good Forza testing in. In the past when I tried the public demos, they always felt more realistic than GT (But only GT4 was out at the time to compare to Forza 1 and 2).

I completely agree with off the line performance. GT5P's tires feel like rims when launching, while Forza involved some modulation and I could get accel times closer to real. In the corners, throttle steer was possible. In particular I remember having trouble with the C6R race car after being used to GT4's perma-understeer.

BTW, what's the tire system in Forza like? Were the tires you used stock equivalent to S3's? I ask mainly because of the 2:26 lap time, which is close to what I run with a Viper SRT-10 on pro (I use N3's as stock). I'm not arguing that your test is invalid because of tires or anything, that's a different discussion. I just want to know how Forza manages tires.

 

[panjandrum]

Thank you for an excellent, balanced, and unbiased comparison.

I've read through it but either you don't say, or I missed, what controllers you are using?

 

[grenadeshark]

Interesting comparison, I'd really like a chance to get some good Forza testing in. In the past when I tried the public demos, they always felt more realistic than GT (But only GT4 was out at the time to compare to Forza 1 and 2).

I completely agree with off the line performance. GT5P's tires feel like rims when launching, while Forza involved some modulation and I could get accel times closer to real. In the corners, throttle steer was possible. In particular I remember having trouble with the C6R race car after being used to GT4's perma-understeer.

BTW, what's the tire system in Forza like? Were the tires you used stock equivalent to S3's? I ask mainly because of the 2:26 lap time, which is close to what I run with a Viper SRT-10 on pro (I use N3's as stock). I'm not arguing that your test is invalid because of tires or anything, that's a different discussion. I just want to know how Forza manages tires.

Well forza has different compounds and different tires widths. When going stock, I just kept the default tire size/rim height/tire compound. In this sense, you can compare forza to a real tire, whereas GT5 is just guessing what width tire and compound you are using.

I used s3's as stock on the rx8. (I think the game puts it somewhere closer to s1). But, on anything less then s3s, the rx8 falls very far behind its stock forza counterpart which has less hp and more weight.

Thank you for an excellent, balanced, and unbiased comparison.

I've read through it but either you don't say, or I missed, what controllers you are using?

I don't have a wheel for the 360 so I used the controller. I have a wheel for the ps3, but for comparisons sake, I used the controller. I am quite competent with the controllers in both games. I still run faster times with the controller in GT5 currently as my experience with the wheel is limited.

 

[African Kat]

The specified tyre list for each different car on gt5p just confuses things abit. In gt4, the 'N' series tyres were the road tyres and the 'S' series tyres were of the 'semi slick' or 'intermediate' type( commonly used for the track and fitted on csl's or scuderia's). They represent a big step-up in grip for a drastic reduction in wet/ cold weather grip - now PD is telling us to use the 'S' series tyres as a comparison to the RX8's factory tyres. It just mess' things up abit

 

[Mr Latte]

Thank You for the thread and effort, great read and nice to see it done in a way were your not taking one side.

One of the biggest issues is the track itself and why such a comparison is flawed in general A-B comparisons for car/tyre/performance/handling.

Forza 2 seems to have a much closer less realistic field of view and the draw distance which is much much less than GT5P. This may also efect the sense of speed particulary at slow speed to Forza2 favour. For comparisons you should compare the car in each game at the same points on the track just to see the massive difference. If you could show photos of these im sure it will shock many of the people reading

I would say that GT5P layout and size is more realistic but using the "Racing tyre" to have to obtain a similar time I think is also reflecting in an uneven handling comparison regards your issue of red limiting with little wheel spin.
Whats the effect if using S2 Tyres?

What about suspension, ride height alterations and of course tyre alignment?

 

[grenadeshark]

Thank You for the thread and effort, great read and nice to see it done in a way were your not taking one side.

One of the biggest issues is the track itself and why such a comparison is flawed in general A-B comparisons for car/tyre/performance/handling.

Forza 2 seems to have a much closer less realistic field of view and the draw distance which is much much less than GT5P. This may also efect the sense of speed particulary at slow speed to Forza2 favour. For comparisons you should compare the car in each game at the same points on the track just to see the massive difference. If you could show photos of these im sure it will shock many of the people reading

I would say that GT5P layout and size is more realistic but using the "Racing tyre" to have to obtain a similar time I think is also reflecting in an uneven handling comparison regards your issue of red limiting with little wheel spin.
Whats the effect if using S2 Tyres?

What about suspension, ride height alterations and of course tyre alignment?

Ill run it again using s2 tires and post my times. If I use standard physicis, i can brush off about 2-3s per lap. I really feel that forza and gt5 are about the same when used on standard physics.

I already had a very good tuned rx8 that I used for gt5. What i did in the forza counterpart was use these same settings in the forza car and wanted to see what would happen. There were some guesses here and there due to GT5's lack of realistic tuning system (random numbers instead of actual numbers), but i used percentages to make up the difference.

Seeing as both cars were very similar stock. I used a percentage and multiplied it out to come up with spring rates, damper rates, brake pressure, etc.

I didn't mess with settings on parts that you couldn't tune in GT5.

Some of these didn't work out. You can't run really high rear brake setting in forza, the car will lock up its rear tires and you will always lose the rear end coming into the turn. In gran turismo, this does not happen. Forza is more realistic in that sense.

 

[Parnelli Bone]

Wow, this is a great thread! +Rep! You obviously worked very hard to make sure your comparisons are comparable, and then back up your opinions and results with actual facts & figures, rather than just saying "Forza sucks" or "GT5P sucks". I especially am impressed with how close the RX-8s in each game are when comparing gear speeds.

I thought we were done with comparisons some time ago.

👎

 

[grenadeshark]

After running the rx8 quite a few times around on s3 tires on standard physics with my tune. I was able to get it to a 1:20. I have a feeling if I drop the tires on my forza car to stocks, it will bring it back in line with the GT5 car. I am going to test that now.

Also, having half the screen size since I am doing it in 2 player mode may be adding some time to my runs. Can't really verify/deny that as I can't test it full screen in gt5.

 

[Parnelli Bone]

After running the rx8 quite a few times around on s3 tires on standard physics with my tune. I was able to get it to a 1:20. I have a feeling if I drop the tires on my forza car to stocks, it will bring it back in line with the GT5 car. I am going to test that now.

That's cool. I look forward to your results. Unlike some others in this thread, i really think we'll never be "done' with comparisons between different console racing games, so long as those comparisons are intelligent.

 

[JDMKING13]

The only RX-8 in Forza2 is a 2004 Mazdaspeed RX-8, and in GTP is the 2003 RX-8 Type S. They are different cars so the numbers arent going to match up perfectly. I also have both games and i find Forza2 cars way to easy to drive. Im not going to lie i was a huge forza2 fan until i played GT HD and after i played GTP i stop playing Forza2, and if i did it was only to compare and contrast. I also compared the Suzuka track with both games and as you said with the last chicane its like driving on two different tracks. In Forza2 you need no type of throttle control its so easy to get pass, on the other hand in GTP this turn is so tough IMO. It takes very careful throttle response, and balacing the cars weight. Also the track it self feel completely different. The Suzuka track in Forza2 feels very flat compared to GTP. This is another reason why it harder to control cars in GTP then Forza2.

 

[grenadeshark]

That's cool. I look forward to your results. Unlike some others in this thread, i really think we'll never be "done' with comparisons between different console racing games, so long as those comparisons are intelligent.

Well results are in. I tuned both cars again trying to get them even closer then before.

This time around the forza rx8 is running 329 hp/223 tq/ 1240kg/2734 lbs.

I took a few of the mods I had used to be able to customize the car more out of the rx8 in forza as well. I also ran it with stock tires and the first compound tires again.

Forza stock tires with tune. 2:19.1
Forza sport tires with tune. 2:17.6
GT5 (standard physics) s3s/3 tires with tune. 2:20.

One thing I have noticed is the ability of the rx8 on forza to accelerate from low rpms. I mentioned this in my original post. The one on forza is running another 20 ft/lbs of torque, but has a lower power to weight ratio.

8.31 lb/hp for forza
8.14 lb/hp for GT5

So is it the bad design of low rpm acceleration on forza's behalf or its gain of 20 tq? The world may never know. I am leaning towards bad design.

 

[PAPPACLART]

No body mentioned the sound of both cars (RX8). I have never driven one but a friend of mine was planning to buy one and took it for a test drive. I rode passenger. I got my GT5 stolen along with my PS3, so I do not remember the sound (got another PS3, buying GT this week) but the car in Forza sounded close.

 

[Lain]

Very nice thread. You did your homework!

 

[TofuStoreDrift]

What I love about Forza 2 is long burnouts and the overall sound, but as the OP said GT gives you that since of driving. So when I feel like doing high power donuts I'll play Forza, but if I feel like I actually want feel like I'm racing I'll play GT. Don't get me wrong though, Forza's ai, imo, seems much more aware, leading to some intense racing. Just my 2 cents, ofcourse.

 

[grenadeshark]

I went ahead and decided to test GT4 as well. You wouldn't believe it, but my best time (03 rx8 type s)was a 2:26.3. That was with s2 tires stock. I am going to rerun some of my stock runs with my rx8 in GT5P under pro settings and see if I can get it into the 2:26 range. I doubt it.

It seems that standard physics in gt5 came straight from the physics in gt4 and are very similar to the physics in forza!!!

 

[Obli]

Great, balanced comparison and I enjoyed reading it.

You're right about one thing GT does poorly - standing starts. It would be great if getting the right revs was required for optimum traction off the line. As it is, nailing the accelerator seems ridiculous.

 

[neige]

Really enjoyed the comparison. Thanks.

 

[PAPPACLART]

Great, balanced comparison and I enjoyed reading it.

You're right about one thing GT does poorly - standing starts. It would be great if getting the right revs was required for optimum traction off the line. As it is, nailing the accelerator seems ridiculous.

Yes, they need to make the moderation of the throttle more linear in the new game.

 

[grenadeshark]

I added all the GT4 specs and reran all the ps3 races with my steering wheel. The results came out a lot closer to forza, but still not quite there yet.

 

[TorqueHappenS08]

I thought we were done with comparisons some time ago.

Even if you are a "premium" member, dont ever try to knock a good unbiased comparison thread.Just cause he's a new member, does not mean you can just automaticaly try to derail his thread.👎

Good read man, you really did your homework, Love the detail:tup:, and welcome to GTPlanet..

 

[Parnelli Bone]

Well results are in. I tuned both cars again trying to get them even closer then before.

This time around the forza rx8 is running 329 hp/223 tq/ 1240kg/2734 lbs.

I took a few of the mods I had used to be able to customize the car more out of the rx8 in forza as well. I also ran it with stock tires and the first compound tires again.

Forza stock tires with tune. 2:19.1
Forza sport tires with tune. 2:17.6
GT5 (standard physics) s3s/3 tires with tune. 2:20.

One thing I have noticed is the ability of the rx8 on forza to accelerate from low rpms. I mentioned this in my original post. The one on forza is running another 20 ft/lbs of torque, but has a lower power to weight ratio.

8.31 lb/hp for forza
8.14 lb/hp for GT5

So is it the bad design of low rpm acceleration on forza's behalf or its gain of 20 tq? The world may never know. I am leaning towards bad design.

I'm leaning partially towards what JDMKING said...these are both RX-8s, but also different versions of RX-8s. Still, your results for track times are pretty close, which is compelling.

I also wanted to add a couple more things

1> My nephew has Forza2. Some folks above were talking about the sound in this game...i have to agree...Forza has better sound. More variety of sounds, too. But we'll have to wait & see how GT5 pans out for a truer comparison.

2> You mentioned "GT5P the RX-8 is more prone towards sliding" in your comparison. Something like that, anyway. I don't know if this is realistic or not (never drove a real-life RX8, tho i have driven an old RX-7) but this sounds like i would prefer GT5P. I'd rather have a livewire to control than a dead car that rides on rails.