GT5 Sound Thread

[witham]

The sounds seems much better, I acutually enjoy listening to the cars now the zonda sounds amazing and I love hearing the muira hit the rev limiter.

 

[shirakawaa]

The sounds seems much better, I acutually enjoy listening to the cars now the zonda sounds amazing and I love hearing the muira hit the rev limiter.

Did they actually have a rev limiter in real life?
Since they didn't have electronic fuel injection I really doubt so, and if they did that would have been the simple "ignition off" type that would sound very brutal, much more than in the video (because of the unburnt fuel literally detonating in the hot exhaust instead of burning in the combustion chambers).

 

[Spagetti69]

I'd they didn't have a limiter in real life then that's a big error.

 

[Austin343]

Does anyone else think that the gear changes now sound worse than they did in GT4? It really doesn't sound right to me, although not very many games do a good job. I'm sure that manual shifting with a clutch could fix the problem, but most people won't be playing the game that way, and they'll probably notice that something is "off."

To me, a layman, the best and most accurate sounds have come from Nissans - the 370Z road car in the time trial demo, the GT-R from Prologue and everything else, and the JGTC car from a while ago (one of the Tokyo-only demos).

 

[shirakawaa]

I'd they didn't have a limiter in real life then that's a big error.

Most carburated cars don't have a rev-limiter in real life.
In past Gran Turismos however all had one. It seems like this issue hasn't been solved yet.

Does anyone else think that the gear changes now sound worse than they did in GT4? It really doesn't sound right to me, although not very many games do a good job. I'm sure that manual shifting with a clutch could fix the problem, but most people won't be playing the game that way, and they'll probably notice that something is "off."

There are two problems in my opinion:

- Gear changes have become faster but are still absolutely perfect in every situation. In real life not even automated manual transmissions manage to be that good. More jerkiness and randomness is needed
- There's not really much change in volume or tone during rev-matching. In real live when you blip or stomp the throttle on a freewheeling engine, it's going to sound more full, "meatier" or anyway different than normal because in such situations, especially on a sporty, or better, a carburated car, it's going to run richier than normal (and the higher revving speed affects combustion, therefore sound, additionally).

 

[CoolColJ]

Muira actually sounds quite close to the real thing - much to my surprise

jump to 3:43, and a drive by at 5:55
-

 

[CoolColJ]

Fixed up version of the Alba's Corvette ZR1



Real
-

 

[shirakawaa]

I'm not sure of what the fix consisted in, but they sound noticeably better now. 👍

As for the critical comparison compared to real life:
- Tone and pitch are there, but you can tell there's something missing especially during gear shifts. See my last post.
- The engine still doesn't really feel alive, there's a lack of small combustion imperfections like pops, bangs, gurgles, etc.
- Other than the slight syntheticity that GT sounds tend to have at higher rpm in my opinion there's lack of perceived roaring (and "purrrrrrrring") exhaust sound in the internal view. It's as if most of the sound in GT is coming from the engine compartment.
- The internal view in GT seems to not have a balanced level of external ambient noises (road, tyres, sound waves reflecting in the environment). This might be a demo issue though.
- Sounds in the internal view don't seem to be muffled (I don't mean reduced in volume) enough given the sound proofing of the car (ZR1 in particular).

However after hearing the fixed samples, I have to admit that there does have been a greater improvement than I thought.

Could you please fix the Fiat 500 too?

 

[juniordee]

Muira actually sounds quite close to the real thing - much to my surprise

jump to 3:43, and a drive by at 5:55
-

WOW that is near identical...nice:tup:

 

[CoolColJ]

I'm not sure of what the fix consisted in, but they sound noticeably better now. 👍

As for the critical comparison compared to real life:
- Tone and pitch are there, but you can tell there's something missing especially during gear shifts. See my last post.
- The engine still doesn't really feel alive, there's a lack of small combustion imperfections like pops, bangs, gurgles, etc.
- Other than the slight syntheticity that GT sounds tend to have at higher rpm in my opinion there's lack of perceived roaring (and "purrrrrrrring") exhaust sound in the internal view. It's as if most of the sound in GT is coming from the engine compartment.
- The internal view in GT seems to not have a balanced level of external ambient noises (road, tyres, sound waves reflecting in the environment). This might be a demo issue though.
- Sounds in the internal view don't seem to be muffled (I don't mean reduced in volume) enough given the sound proofing of the car (ZR1 in particular).

However after hearing the fixed samples, I have to admit that there does have been a greater improvement than I thought.

Could you please fix the Fiat 500 too?

Basicly there was a DC offset in the original sound files, that means zero level in the waveform was not zero, but slightly above it. And the engine sound itself was out of phase, ie the left side of the speaker is pushing out, while the right side pushes in, causing a semi cancellation of some frequencies. I just flipped around one of the audio channels to rectify this. Probably due to the audio jack not make proper contact in the socket. Now some of the sounds, like the music were normal before, but now sound wonky due to this change, but it actually makes the music disappear into the background
Funny thing, when he switches to outside view the sound fixes itself, so I had to leave those parts alone, although you can hear the wonkiness in the Muira clip when he goes to outside view

Even then the sound is not actually true to the original feed because of all these issues, if you compare the Kart video to PD's Kart trailer. A bit more smeared sounding and not as well defined. Some sounds are softer than they should be and others louder.
The sound files are pretty distorted as well, which causes that top end fuzz.

Still gives you a reasonable idea.

I'll do some more tommorow, off to bed!

 

[analog]

Did they actually have a rev limiter in real life?
Since they didn't have electronic fuel injection I really doubt so, and if they did that would have been the simple "ignition off" type that would sound very brutal, much more than in the video (because of the unburnt fuel literally detonating in the hot exhaust instead of burning in the combustion chambers).

I'd they didn't have a limiter in real life then that's a big error.

Most carburated cars don't have a rev-limiter in real life.
In past Gran Turismos however all had one. It seems like this issue hasn't been solved yet.

It indeed isn't accurate to have a rev-limiter on those classic cars, I guess in real life when you over-revved these cars too much the engine would simply blow up which unfortunately we will probably never see in a GT-game.

 

[alba]

I'll do some more tommorow, off to bed!

Cheers for doing the whole fixing work!

 

[Griffith500]

I just thought of something really "cool".

PD could provide an auto-configure tool that uses something like the PSEye (or any other microphone with a known frequency response) to adjust GT5's audio output according to your hardware and room setup.

This could then be used, with your feedback, to setup the area of listening in the room (i.e. focused on your racing cockpit / couch / beanbag / whatever) and the size of this focus (e.g. for split-screen / audience). This would allow for compensation of room reverb and your seating position / speaker location to provide a much better experience, as well as boosting frequencies that are attenuated by the hardware, and visa-versa, so that the sound coming from the speakers is more natural (although still missing details above and below the response range.)

The tricky part is making this easy for people to do. E.g. clever use of stereo imaging to set the distance between speakers and the observer and the speakers and / or screen by ear. The reverb is compensated for with de-convolution of an impulse response, as recorded from the PSEye. The EQ is adjusted by using some sort of pure-tone sweep, again recorded by the PSEye.

That's assuming it's up to the job...
And looking at it, it just might be!

The PlayStation Eye features a built-in four-capsule¹ microphone array, with which the PlayStation 3 can employ¹° technologies for multi-directional voice location tracking, echo cancellation, and background noise suppression. This allows the peripheral to be used for speech recognition and audio chat in noisy environments without the use of a headset.¹ The PlayStation Eye microphone array operates with each channel processing 16-bit samples at a sampling rate of 48 kilohertz, and a signal-to-noise ratio of 90 decibels.¹

If you don't have one, you should still be able to do it all manually.

 

[juniordee]

I just thought of something really "cool".

PD could provide an auto-configure tool that uses something like the PSEye (or any other microphone with a known frequency response) to adjust GT5's audio output according to your hardware and room setup.


That's assuming it's up to the job...
And looking at it, it just might be!


If you don't have one, you should still be able to do it all manually.

So basically a sonar, lol. I think it's easier to just have 3 options to choose from (small theater, big theater, etc).

 

[shirakawaa]

I use headphones 99% of the time, so that wouldn't work for me.

 

[Pierced Lead]

Muira actually sounds quite close to the real thing - much to my surprise

jump to 3:43, and a drive by at 5:55
-

Damn I think that's as close as PD has gotten so far...

Anymore comparisons like this? The ZR1 and XJ13 are disappointing and M5 still lacks somewhere.

 

[XEPEGTP]

I think the sound is too clinical, it tries to be as pretty and "ideal" as the visuals, but just as things look uglier in real life(or should i say look so much better in GT) then things should sound just as ugly!

Popping banging rattles whines grinding, show me one onboard where you dont hear any of those.

PD, fire is where it all began, combustion, take it back to the roots, explore fire and its influence and nature and you will get those sounds we desire.

 

[Griffith500]

I use headphones 99% of the time, so that wouldn't work for me.

Me too, but it's not a lost cause.

And the three [WIKIPEDIA]dynamic range[/WIKIPEDIA] options have nothing to do with echo cancellation and EQ modifying for dodgy speakers.

Read a bit about wave superposition, stereo imaging and interference patterns to get an idea of why it could be useful.

My lounge has terrible acoustics which means that dialogue gets lost in a wash of, well, itself. The effect is different depending on where you sit, or where you move the TV to out of frustration...
Similarly, games are a nightmare to play on it - stuff cannot be located very well, and the interference acts as a kind of comb filter. That's why I use my computer monitor and some headphones, not to mention the quality benefit of headphones and the possibility of stereo-surround mixing...

I figure if people get frustrated with Rock Band / Guitar Hero to the point that they are "forced" to "calibrate" their "system", then they might, following a similar "tip" in the game, do the same for sound in a racing game.

 

[Bekimche]

 

[Coiler]

Same here, playing in my sennheiser's near all the time. Good stereo is way better than those poor 5.1 systems.

 

[Griffith500]

I think the sound is too clinical, it tries to be as pretty and "ideal" as the visuals, but just as things look uglier in real life(or should i say look so much better in GT) then things should sound just as ugly!

Popping banging rattles whines grinding, show me one onboard where you dont hear any of those.

PD, fire is where it all began, combustion, take it back to the roots, explore fire and its influence and nature and you will get those sounds we desire.

I missed this post somehow!

I agree that GT is very clinical (although the visuals do seem to be shifting) and that they need to go back to the "roots", but I think that "Fire" is a bit of a red herring.

It's all about pressure differences (funnily enough, that's all that sound is). The majority of the engine sound is the "pop" as the intake valve opens after the piston has already begun descending (relieving the drop in pressure there); and the "pop" as the exhaust valve opens sometime after ignition (releasing the corresponding increase in cylinder pressure).
There's a good portion of "coloured" noise from the gas exchange (like a steam engine, but generally faster) which is turbulence, mostly (the changing of ordered kinetic energy into more stochastic forms). Overrun, certain anti-lag systems etc. are more complex, since these are chaotic events and occur in the exhaust rather than the cylinders themselves.

More synthesis layers would cover some of this, to add to the exhaust and intake gas, the road noise and aerodynamic noise.

 

[opladener]

Did they actually have a rev limiter in real life?
Since they didn't have electronic fuel injection I really doubt so, and if they did that would have been the simple "ignition off" type that would sound very brutal, much more than in the video (because of the unburnt fuel literally detonating in the hot exhaust instead of burning in the combustion chambers).

Thats how it works on my '98 Honda CB500 (Motorcycle) and probably on all other carbed bikes. The ignition isn't simply switched to off though, I don't know exactly how its done.

Its not that brutal and there are no flames coming out of the exhaust (sadly )

If you put the killswitch to off position, open the throttle a few times and then turn it back on, you can produce a nice bang though. Not that good for your exhaust valves, though.

 

[Cale]

Thats how it works on my '98 Honda CB500 (Motorcycle) and probably on all other carbed bikes. The ignition isn't simply switched to off though, I don't know exactly how its done.

Its not that brutal and there are no flames coming out of the exhaust (sadly )

If you put the killswitch to off position, open the throttle a few times and then turn it back on, you can produce a nice bang though. Not that good for your exhaust valves, though.

That's how it works on my dad's corvette. ('68)

 

[shirakawaa]

Thats how it works on my '98 Honda CB500 (Motorcycle) and probably on all other carbed bikes. The ignition isn't simply switched to off though, I don't know exactly how its done.

Its not that brutal and there are no flames coming out of the exhaust (sadly )

If you put the killswitch to off position, open the throttle a few times and then turn it back on, you can produce a nice bang though. Not that good for your exhaust valves, though.

I guess the implementation of a ignition-driven rev limiter can vary between cars. I mostly knew about the simple spark-off method.
Probably in your case after a certain threshold spark advance gets retarded increasingly before ignition gets switched off for a split second. In that way the transition should be a bit smoother than abruptly switching off the ignition, solution that is more likely to be found in simpler engines or certain race cars.

Most other cars with carburated engines, especially lower powered ones, though, don't have any rev limiter, so the only limit is the power output which most of the time after a certain threshold (often way beyond the redline, although going that far doesn't always imply that it's immediately dangerous for the engine) simply drops quickly to very low, almost zero, values.

 

[XEPEGTP]

...

More synthesis layers would cover some of this, to add to the exhaust and intake gas, the road noise and aerodynamic noise.

+1 for the techie breakdown!

More layers! They desperately need this wall of sound coming from every aspect, road, wind, car\other cars, now that they have roll-over, if I flip I dont want it to sound like dropping a bucket of legos down wooden stairs.

Theres got to be crunching and cracking and so on.

Id really like to know what type of files PD uses for sounds, WAV, MP3...

If they use MP3's to cut down space (they are about 10% what a WAV is, in size and in quality) then the answer is right there, such a lossy format does not have the frequency range and 'detail' that lossless WAV has.

 

[VyPeR]

So far, the peugeout 908 sound is disappointing.(from the le mans demo). The engine sound is a rehash of the bentley speed 8 in GT4.

I'm hoping the 787b will sound like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPJQ0nuLOcc&feature=search

This sound is almost identical to the real life rotary engine of the 787b. I do like how it sounds in GT3 and GT4 though, but I would prefer a more realistic sound like the one in that video.

 

[CoolColJ]

There are limits with console audio. I read that in Codemaster's F1 2010, they can only allocate 1.5 megs for all the sounds in memory for the console versions. Whereas some of their PC games had 13 megs

I don't know what the audio memory budget is in GT5 but that gives you some perspective.

We might have to wait till the PS4 before things start to get much better

 

[scottjua]

Nice shots. 👍
You'll have to tell who I need to get in contact with to take photos "out on the track" at MSR.

Thanks. I shoot car stuff whenever I'm not shooting paid work and when I can at the track. But I'm an instructor with Apex Driving Academy that runs out there at MSR, so most of the time now I'm in a car, and don't get much chance to shoot. My wife, if not driving on track herself will shoot though if the weather is not 100+. ^_^

Hit me up via PM, I can give you dates Apex will be out there.

 

[Context]

How long do you guys think it will take them to perfect the sounds until the game can sound something like this? PS7? or maybe when they model air and make the engine work exactly how its supposed to in game with explosions and all, if that were true they could just build every engine from scratch and wouldn't need to mic up any cars or mess with doppler effects because it would just all naturally happen? Can someone put me to sleep for 25 years? I am thinking too far ahead.

3:15 for cockpit sound




This will be the day I spend more than 6 hours in one sitting, 3 hours driving around nurburging and 3 hours watching the replay.


I know i have posted this before for but damnit KAZ! you need to improve the sound. I wouldn't care if the graphics were 2d if you could just get the sound right.

 

[Griffith500]

Well, until the game has a methyl-ethyl-ether fueled, 6 bar, twin-stage supercharged, 1.5 litre V16 with essentially straight pipes, I'd say you might be waiting a while...

EDIT: I think I got the fuel wrong, but it was usually some mad mixture of some alcohol(s), some ether(s) and ordinary aliphatics...