GT5's Game-Breaking Online Flaw (OP Updated: 11 Feb)

[CSLACR]

I thought we were all full of it?

 

[MGR]

Happend again a couple of nights ago.

This time we all used the Standard model Viper GTS '99 from the OCD to try and reduce the chance of the bug occuring. Only 12 entrants, track was selected randomly (Grand Valley Speedway - Reverse) and we had a 15min qualifying session. I ran a couple of laps, the best being 2:11.8

Come race time the bug was definately present (once again for all the FFB wheel users). The three guys on the DS3 were not affected. I got punted off track on the first lap by a DS3 user. Not really his fault as because he was caught out by how much slower I had to run through the corners. My second lap was clean and I ran a 2:17.6 - which was 6 seconds slower than free run mode.

After I crossed the line on that second lap I 'rage quit' and watched from the lobby. That must've been the tipping point because suddenly all the FFB wheel users regained their speed and started to catch the leading DS3 driver (who at this stage had quite a big lead given the intial 6 second/lap advantage).

Later I timed my replay using a stopwatch to compare:

Qualifying lap was - 2:11.8 (game clock)
2nd (clean) lap was - 2:17.6 (game clock) & 2:11.7 (stopwatch)

This bug blows.

 

[BWX]

I've got him "ignored" , now if everybody would just stop quoting him, I wont have to read his posts at all

LOL- well it won't be me doing it now anyway.

 

[r2dc2]

LOL- well it won't be me doing it now anyway.

Thank you. The troll was invisible to me. Until you quoted him.

You really should add him to you 'ignore' list.

Nothing constructive came from that direction anyway.

Now, back to our regular programming...

Any idea with forcing the lobby to a higher race quality exaggerate the problem? i.e., the game recommends a 4 star race quality but I move it to five stars?

 

[nasanu]

I thought we were all full of it?

I never said that at all, that was and is a projection of others. I thought many of the causes that were proposed were lacking a basis in reality, and I even after experiencing it I believe the change in physics angle is in the same category.

 

[chuyler1]

Qualifying lap was - 2:11.8 (game clock)
2nd (clean) lap was - 2:17.6 (game clock) & 2:11.7 (stopwatch)

This bug blows.

Woah, you mean to say your laggy lap was actually timed correct, but the game clock put you 6 seconds behind????? So the game actually speeds everyone else up???? So when we experience it, we aren't driving in slow-mo, everyone else is in fast forward?

 

[xSNAKEx]

So if someone designed a game like ''Pong''.. with black and white 2D GFX, one dot for the ball, and two other lines as the paddles, for the PS3, this game would tax the PS3 as much as GT5 running SPA in the rain online with 16 players all running premium cars? Are you serious or just serious about trolling for arguments?



No you failed. The theoretical example I just gave disproves what you are claiming. You get into trouble when you make huge claims you cannot possibly prove and state them as fact with terms like ''always''. It's complete BS. Just stop man.

EDIT- Using ''ignore'' feature now so I won't be responding.

You guys are both wrong and the computer programmer guy that stated if a game maxxed out the ps3 for 8 hours it would die is just an idiot. A ps3 can run maxxed out for years, and one that has barely been used can fail within days of purchase

Under normal circumstances as a properly coded a pong game would not max out the ps3, cpu or gpu wise. We will ignore resources like memory usage as their effect on heat and maxxing out a ps3 is negligible.

So in this regard that aussie guy you blocked is partly wrong and you are partly right but to be fair to him you shoved words in his mouth. Everything else he has said has been spot on. Most games will push the ps3 to the max even if they ARE POORLY CODED. When devs say they try hard to extract everything a console has they dont mean they just want to max out the, hardware they mean they want TO CODE FOR THE HARDWARE MORE EFFICIENTLY.

Now to go back to why you are wrong BWX, its because a pong game COULD be programmed to max out the ps3. I said under normal circumstances it wouldn't because they would be an intended cap to the fps and cpu cycles the game would take up, however you could easily remove these limitations and let that pong game max out the ps3.

Protip: If a, game is suffering from fluctuating fps/perfirmance issues you can almost bet your ass its maxxing out the ps3.

Feel free to rage ignore if you can't understand this.

 

[carracerptp]

Qualifying lap was - 2:11.8 (game clock)
2nd (clean) lap was - 2:17.6 (game clock) & 2:11.7 (stopwatch)

Wow, if that is true then it would suggest the games is doing some sort of a time warp.....
Is that how boost works? (I have yet to test).

You guys are both wrong and the computer programmer guy that stated if a game maxxed out the ps3 for 8 hours it would die is just an idiot. A ps3 can run maxxed out for years, and one that has barely been used can fail within days of purchase

The computer programmer guy would like to append that the 8 hours was a guess, just like saying it could run maxxed out for years.

I believe the PS3 is a single processing unit. I'm unaware of how they integrated the GPU and CPU. They must have some sort of process delegation. Until I see how the draw code works, the frame rate to GPU/CPU usage could vary (and most likely does).

I don't want to get this thread closed, as it's displaying a great range of online issues, and hopefully someone at PD could see this problem.

As a programmer, I think it is important to remember that the code for the game could have worked when compiled. It's just, when out under load, it goes all haywire.

And it's Mr. Idiot.

 

[cicua]

Woah, you mean to say your laggy lap was actually timed correct, but the game clock put you 6 seconds behind????? So the game actually speeds everyone else up???? So when we experience it, we aren't driving in slow-mo, everyone else is in fast forward?

No, in the race he really did a 2:17.6. But the replay somehow lacks 5.9 seconds. Which probably corresponds to the number of frames/ticks where he had no grip.

The difference between replay and stopwatch time seems to be a certain indicator when you have been hit by the bug.

 

[Zoom!Zoom!]

As far as PS3 hardware maxed out can mean different things.

 

[xSNAKEx]

Wow, if that is true then it would suggest the games is doing some sort of a time warp.....
Is that how boost works? (I have yet to test).




The computer programmer guy would like to append that the 8 hours was a guess, just like saying it could run maxxed out for years.

I believe the PS3 is a single processing unit. I'm unaware of how they integrated the GPU and CPU. They must have some sort of process delegation. Until I see how the draw code works, the frame rate to GPU/CPU usage could vary (and most likely does).

I don't want to get this thread closed, as it's displaying a great range of online issues, and hopefully someone at PD could see this problem.

As a programmer, I think it is important to remember that the code for the game could have worked when compiled. It's just, when out under load, it goes all haywire.

And it's Mr. Idiot.

I dont mean to argue or offend you, but especially as a programmer you did make such ridiculous claims in so serious manner where you can safely conclude something that is frankly a joke, Its hard not to.

Claiming the ps3 can only run for 8 hours straight under full processing load is comical. My "years" claim was not an approximation or rough guess to compare to yours, I was actually making a point that there is no set time limit where the ps3 cant take it anymore and will break. They are designed to operate under full load indefinitely under normal operation.

 

[MGR]

No, in the race he really did a 2:17.6. But the replay somehow lacks 5.9 seconds. Which probably corresponds to the number of frames/ticks where he had no grip.

The difference between replay and stopwatch time seems to be a certain indicator when you have been hit by the bug.

Correct.

When you are actually playing the game clock is accurate in real time. When you watch the recorded replay it's like the replay is missing frames so the game clock runs faster than it should. That's why the time shown is longer than the time recorded with a stop watch.

This effects everybody in the replay. The leading car (unaffected by the bug) on lap two clocked a 2:16.0 on the game clock but was also near 6 seconds faster on the stopwatch.

Once again the only drivers not affected were using the Dual Shock Controller. All drivers that were suffering were using either the G25 or G27 wheel.

After I dropped out at the end of lap 2 the laps times went back to normal for everybody.

 

[Zoom!Zoom!]

I dont mean to argue or offend you, but especially as a programmer you did make such ridiculous claims in so serious manner where you can safely conclude something that is frankly a joke, Its hard not to.

Claiming the ps3 can only run for 8 hours straight under full processing load is comical. My "years" claim was not an approximation or rough guess to compare to yours, I was actually making a point that there is no set time limit where the ps3 cant take it anymore and will break. They are designed to operate under full load indefinitely under normal operation.

I don't understand his claim either since there are PC programs like Prime 95 that is design to run CPU maxed out for hours and even days to detect hardware problems.
He maybe referring to if hardware is using max power 100% of the time is would cause it to burn up. A 100 watt speaker obviously isn't burning 100 watts 100% of the time as it would not produce any noise. It would just heat up.

 

[carracerptp]

Correct.

When you are actually playing the game clock is accurate in real time. When you watch the recorded replay it's like the replay is missing frames so the game clock runs faster than it should. That's why the time shown is longer than the time recorded with a stop watch.

This effects everybody in the replay. The leading car (unaffected by the bug) on lap two clocked a 2:16.0 on the game clock but was also near 6 seconds faster on the stopwatch.

Once again the only drivers not affected were using the Dual Shock Controller. All drivers that were suffering were using either the G25 or G27 wheel.

After I dropped out at the end of lap 2 the laps times went back to normal for everybody.

I have only had this problem twice with a DS3, but I normally hear it happen with the wheel users.

Does anyone know if/how much more data comes/out though the wheel?

I don't understand his claim either since there are PC programs like Prime 95 that is design to run CPU maxed out for hours and even days to detect hardware problems.

I was basing my "claims" on a laptop in a room of normal temperature and air flow, that was rendering a 3D animation (not my laptop or me doing it).
I would guess it would be a close example of cooling power to compare to the PS3 (An overclocked, hand built, desktop is going to have a cooling advantage).
If the cooling is bad, CPU will fault or die. Same for any system, CPU, GPU.
I will admit that my guess was low. I decided to take a look at the cell processor and it seems to take heat very well. Now if I could just find a find PS3 prime 95 port.....

I will be deleting my original post, it seems to be distracting.

Sorry MGR.

 

[MGR]

I have only had this problem twice with a DS3, but I normally here it happen with the wheel users.

Does anyone know if/how much more data comes/out though the wheel?

The data supplied from a wheel shouldn't really be any different to that of a dual shock. You've got throttle/brake position and steering position, plus single click buttons for changing gears, handbrake etc.

However the game is quite likely processing more information with a FFB wheel to provide the appropriate FFB effects.

I'm not saying that DS3 users cannot be effected. It's just in my experience (and others) that its far more common for wheels users. Like how the bug is more common using premium cars, or high-draw tracks, or larger numbers of competitors.

It's for these reasons I believe the PS3 itself cannot keep up and the online timing/physics deteriorate to the point where competitive online racing is pointless.

Just to re-iterate I don't believe this is a hardware fault! The wheel is not sending oogie-boogie code to screw the game and the PS3 hardware is not faulty or fundamentally broken.

The problem is the game itself and PDs responsibility to fix.

One can understand that there will be occasions where the game won't maintain 60fps and network lag/latency is a fact of life. But under no circumstances ever should the clock/timing/physics become compromised. It's a racing game for crying out loud!

 

[cicua]

Correct.

When you are actually playing the game clock is accurate in real time. When you watch the recorded replay it's like the replay is missing frames so the game clock runs faster than it should. That's why the time shown is longer than the time recorded with a stop watch.

This effects everybody in the replay. The leading car (unaffected by the bug) on lap two clocked a 2:16.0 on the game clock but was also near 6 seconds faster on the stopwatch.

What about his own replay? It should play his lap in correct time (2.16 on stopwatch), else he was also affected.

2.16 sound too slow, assuming you are somewhat equal.

The problem is the game itself and PDs responsibility to fix.

Totally with you here. Wish PD would take a stance on the whole issue.

 

[nealcropper]

well a lot of people are noticing the bug so lets hope PD have too.

 

[nasanu]

Now if I could just find a find PS3 prime 95 port.....

Sorry MGR.

It's called folding@home, or on PS3 'Life with Playstation'. It maxes out the cell for as long as you run it. Some people have this running 24/7 (as they do on their store bought PCs with no issues).

Does anyone know if/how much more data comes/out though the wheel?

Hardly any more than a DS. A wheel like a T500RS would simply need a bigger variable for its x and y axis, but its buttons are digital where they are analogue on the DS. They would both be about as expensive as each other to run, perhaps the DS would need slightly more memory. Feedback events are another thing altogether but it is possible both the DS and wheels use the same events and subroutines to generate the vibration and ffb. Either way the processing cost of controllers is nothing, and is the same offline as it is online. Complete dead end.

From my experience with the bug and having watched the frame rate jump, or rather the displayed frame skip ahead in time, I am betting this is very complicated. My current theory is that the network data has a higher interrupt than anything else. Something is going wrong and the net code is holding up processing of other code (not letting it access cpu time) waiting for some regular event. (just my wild theory)

The frame rate drops very low, this simply can not be because the PS3 can not handle it. It handles it just fine every other time. And judging by the reply times there would have to be an extra 40% increase in load on the PS3 to cause such a drop in performance. Do you guys really think that a wheel is going to use up 40% of the PS3's power?

 

[CSLACR]

Not to distract, but you just said the PS3 is running "maxed out" all the time, so it wouldn't be possible to increase load 40% in any way then would it?
Of course I'm assuming you're speaking plain English, and "maxed out" meant "full load", if it didn't, you need to work on your wording.

I do agree a wheel is probably not the problem. I know of a few DS3 users that have experienced the problem. I think it's just random occurrence that sometimes DS3 users don't get it, and sometimes it's mixed.

 

[Cowboys965]

This glitch just ruined our series race last night. First stint of tires laps were 10 seconds higher than qualifying. The Le Mans GT class was beating some LMP2 cars also.

 

[daymobrown]

It's called folding@home, or on PS3 'Life with Playstation'. It maxes out the cell for as long as you run it. Some people have this running 24/7 (as they do on their store bought PCs with no issues).

Folding at Home does not max out the ps3's system resources.

It processes a single work unit at a time, which takes approximately 8 hours to complete. F@H needs the speed of the PS3 GPU while retaining the CPU's multi-function capability (by not running at 100%).

 

[nasanu]

Not to distract, but you just said the PS3 is running "maxed out" all the time, so it wouldn't be possible to increase load 40% in any way then would it?
Of course I'm assuming you're speaking plain English, and "maxed out" meant "full load", if it didn't, you need to work on your wording.

OMG... Why can't you guys think for yourselves?

Listen, if the PS3 is operating at 100% and you increase the load what happens? You obviously can not go past 100% so the frame rate gets cut back. The graphics engine has to just dump the work it can not get done.

Folding at Home does not max out the ps3's system resources.

It processes a single work unit at a time, which takes approximately 8 hours to complete. F@H needs the speed of the PS3 GPU while retaining the CPU's multi-function capability (by not running at 100%).

Folding at Home does not max out the ps3's system resources.

It processes a single work unit at a time, which takes approximately 8 hours to complete. F@H needs the speed of the PS3 GPU while retaining the CPU's multi-function capability (by not running at 100%).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folding@home

These clients run continuously in the background, using otherwise unused processing power.[1] These clients are designed to run FAH's calculations at an extremely low priority, and will back off to allow other computer programs to have more processing power.[122][123] Although modern computer chips are designed to be able to operate continuously without degrading,[122][124] if users wish to reduce power consumption or heat production, the maximum percentage of CPU power used can be adjusted if desired.

- wikipedia.

In other words the f@h client will use all used cpu time. If you are doing nothing then its 100%. The units take 8 hours because they are designed to, not because the PS3 does nothing for most of the time. The PS3 does not get sent the same work units as PCs do.

 

[nasanu]

no idea how I double posted...

 

[daymobrown]

the ps3 does not get sent the same work units as pcs do.

bingo!

 

[berty1979]

Thats 4 series I have read about ruined by this problem now, it must be a recent thing as the first time its been mentioned in any depth is the last 2 weeks or so. It began 3 weeks ago for us and steadily got worse.

 

[jon-]

Thats 4 series I have read about ruined by this problem now, it must be a recent thing as the first time its been mentioned in any depth is the last 2 weeks or so. It began 3 weeks ago for us and steadily got worse.

I covered it in depth in Sept:

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=222711

Not a new thing, but 2.02 seems to have made it easier to reproduce.

 

[Mulan]

Wow, thanks for this thread!!! I thought my driving was crazy wrong and tried to adjust carsettings from room to room. I have nothing new to add to the bug other than i want to put in a reply so PD understands that this is a real nasty bug. I play with wheel and have 100Mbit connection now. The times this happenes is when there are more than 10 players online, in the same room of course. What i notice is massive understear and loss of grip without any logical explenation and laptimes that just are strangely slow even when the car feels great when i know i was fast i still land 4-5 sec slower (nurburg). Thanks for this thread, now i know it isnt just me

 

[Chqr]

Really disappointed with PD over this. You would think by now they would have solved most of the game's underlying issues and not leave their fan base to unearth them. After so many updates, online closures and bug fixes, its becoming to be an increasingly frustrating issue where I'm slightly apprehensive about new updates coming to GT5 because they will cause bugs and issues only for another update in a month's time to fix them by which time something new has come along.

You would think PD would be a step ahead of the game but it seems they're a step behind.

 

[cicua]

Really disappointed with PD over this. You would think by now they would have solved most of the game's underlying issues and not leave their fan base to unearth them. After so many updates, online closures and bug fixes, its becoming to be an increasingly frustrating issue where I'm slightly apprehensive about new updates coming to GT5 because they will cause bugs and issues only for another update in a month's time to fix them by which time something new has come along.

You would think PD would be a step ahead of the game but it seems they're a step behind.

I share your disappointment. I am afraid it is what could be expected from GT's first-generation networking code. There are and will be bugs, and the user interface and facilities sucks as well, and it will probably not get all right before a complete rewrite (GT6).

Stomach feelings say the whole game engine suffers from an old offline focused design that is difficult to wrap networking around.

 

[QB1o]

Today i was in a room with a 40s race finish delay; i finished 39s behind leader, then the leaderboard said i was +45s at the finishing split. Something is badly broken here.