GT5's new physics engine...

[Kamus]

The new physics engine has me REALLY intrigued.. just what is it?
We don't know, but i'm sure evry sim fan is hoping it's a totally new physics engine that actually has a proper tyre simulation, just like the one found in Enthusia.

The problem with the GT4 simulation (or GTHD for that matter) is that it doesn't even really take tyres into account for evrything, the simulation is based on the chasis, not the tyres.
This of course is a huge flaw and it results in a simulation that's not nearly as good as it should be.
We can use the Enthusia official website for reference:

http://www.konami.jp/gs/game/enthusia/eng/system/sim_02.html

This has me REALLY excited, because the first thing i noticed about GTHD is well... the fact that it was nothing more than GT4 with much more detailed car models and real shadows.
The simulation wasn't really improved. Other than the fact that it might have more resolution, but it was still based on the old one.
This to me, while not a dealbreaker, was huge dissapointment. I mean what is the point of the Cell processor if all we're gonna improve is graphics right?

And now PD comes and says things like a new physics mode for pro drivers... this makes me really intrigued, just what is this going to be? the standard mode is allready confirmed to be based on the GT4/GTHD physics model.
But they didn't really went into detail of just how the new phsyics model works.
Here's what it could be:
-A brand new physics model that actually uses tyres as the first and most important thing of the simulation. (this would be the best scenario. and perhaps put GT simulation on the same league as enthusia.... or better.)
That not only that, but has a lot more updates per second than the old GT4 physics engine.

-A brand new physics engine, that still isn't as good as the one in enthusia because they don't start the engine from the ground up and rely on old methods as the base for it. (this would suck, but it could be an improvement.)

-Just a higher resolution engine based on the GT4 physics. that simply are more "unforgiving". (this would be the worse case scenario)
The physics in GT4 ran at 60 updates/sec, which is the same as the framerate, and Kaz had allready stated that on a PS3 version they would run that same engine at 360 times & sec. (note that he in no way was implying this because of hardware limits, he just would do it like that.), but this would still have the dreaded problem shown in the enthusia pictures on the link i posted. i REALLY REALLY hope it's not the case.

For me only Scenario 1 is acceptable, i'll play the game regardless. But only Scenario 1 would make the game have endless replay value for me.

Another concern as far as proper simulation goes it's transmissions.
Enthusia is the only game i've seen that gets them right.

Have any of you guys noticed that all of the transmissions in the GT series are manual? (even when you have autoshifting, it's still a manual. It just shifts by itself.)
There are cars that don't have a manual option in real life. Yet in GT evry car shifts like a manual gearbox would. (again even with autoshifting.)

In Enthusia. there is a very distinct difference between the two, even the sound when the car shifts is different, but you can choose autoshifting for manuals (not automatic, just autoshifting.) and some kind of "manual" shifting for automatics. (think triptonic.)

I do not recall if Enthusia gets evrything else right in automatics. (like say. the fact that if you don't put the pedal to the metal the cars don't rev all the way up and they just shift.)
but even then it was a very clear imrpovement over the GT series.

So, this is another thing that needs to be adressed, and could easily get overlooked. (but IMO it SHOULD be adressed, specially since there's talk about adding a "crusing in the city" mode for GT5, you don't need to put the accelerator all the way down just for commuting so the car would have to shift before the redline in an automatic.)


And then ofcourse there's the last issue i'll tackle:

SOUNDS, lets face it, even arcade games like Need for Speed have FAR more realistic sounds.

The engines sound very plain compared to the real ones in the GT series, and differential sounds are TERRIBLE in the GT series. (best ones i've heard are in GTR, by far.)

So in GT5, we now even have a cockpit view. and we all know that even window up or down inside the car will produce extremley different sounds. lets all hope for improved sounds that are at least on par with those found in the need for speed series.

Anyway, i hope i didn't bore you people with my long post, if anyone gets ANY info in any of the issues discussed please reply ASAP.

-Kamus

 

[Skid Mark 33]

The new physics engine has me REALLY intrigued.. just what is it?
We don't know, but i'm sure evry sim fan is hoping it's a totally new physics engine that actually has a proper tyre simulation, just like the one found in Enthusia.

The problem with the GT4 simulation (or GTHD for that matter) is that it doesn't even really take tyres into account for evrything, the simulation is based on the chasis, not the tyres.
This of course is a huge flaw and it results in a simulation that's not nearly as good as it should be.
We can use the Enthusia official website for reference:

http://www.konami.jp/gs/game/enthusia/eng/system/sim_02.html

This has me REALLY excited, because the first thing i noticed about GTHD is well... the fact that it was nothing more than GT4 with much more detailed car models and real shadows.
The simulation wasn't really improved. Other than the fact that it might have more resolution, but it was still based on the old one.
This to me, while not a dealbreaker, was huge dissapointment. I mean what is the point of the Cell processor if all we're gonna improve is graphics right?

And now PD comes and says things like a new physics mode for pro drivers... this makes me really intrigued, just what is this going to be? the standard mode is allready confirmed to be based on the GT4/GTHD physics model.
But they didn't really went into detail of just how the new phsyics model works.
Here's what it could be:
-A brand new physics model that actually uses tyres as the first and most important thing of the simulation. (this would be the best scenario. and perhaps put GT simulation on the same league as enthusia.... or better.)
That not only that, but has a lot more updates per second than the old GT4 physics engine.

-A brand new physics engine, that still isn't as good as the one in enthusia because they don't start the engine from the ground up and rely on old methods as the base for it. (this would suck, but it could be an improvement.)

-Just a higher resolution engine based on the GT4 physics. that simply are more "unforgiving". (this would be the worse case scenario)
The physics in GT4 ran at 60 updates/sec, which is the same as the framerate, and Kaz had allready stated that on a PS3 version they would run that same engine at 360 times & sec. (note that he in no way was implying this because of hardware limits, he just would do it like that.), but this would still have the dreaded problem shown in the enthusia pictures on the link i posted. i REALLY REALLY hope it's not the case.

For me only Scenario 1 is acceptable, i'll play the game regardless. But only Scenario 1 would make the game have endless replay value for me.

Another concern as far as proper simulation goes it's transmissions.
Enthusia is the only game i've seen that gets them right.

Have any of you guys noticed that all of the transmissions in the GT series are manual? (even when you have autoshifting, it's still a manual. It just shifts by itself.)
There are cars that don't have a manual option in real life. Yet in GT evry car shifts like a manual gearbox would. (again even with autoshifting.)

In Enthusia. there is a very distinct difference between the two, even the sound when the car shifts is different, but you can choose autoshifting for manuals (not automatic, just autoshifting.) and some kind of "manual" shifting for automatics. (think triptonic.)

I do not recall if Enthusia gets evrything else right in automatics. (like say. the fact that if you don't put the pedal to the metal the cars don't rev all the way up and they just shift.)
but even then it was a very clear imrpovement over the GT series.

So, this is another thing that needs to be adressed, and could easily get overlooked. (but IMO it SHOULD be adressed, specially since there's talk about adding a "crusing in the city" mode for GT5, you don't need to put the accelerator all the way down just for commuting so the car would have to shift before the redline in an automatic.)


And then ofcourse there's the last issue i'll tackle:

SOUNDS, lets face it, even arcade games like Need for Speed have FAR more realistic sounds.

The engines sound very plain compared to the real ones in the GT series, and differential sounds are TERRIBLE in the GT series. (best ones i've heard are in GTR, by far.)

So in GT5, we now even have a cockpit view. and we all know that even window up or down inside the car will produce extremley different sounds. lets all hope for improved sounds that are at least on par with those found in the need for speed series.

Anyway, i hope i didn't bore you people with my long post, if anyone gets ANY info in any of the issues discussed please reply ASAP.

-Kamus

Agreed, GT needs a better physics engine, and I think you have explained it very well. Better sounds are needed, as well as better physics. I certainly know what you are talking about with the transmission though. According to GT, you can only get a Honda Jazz in automatic, WRONG! Anyway great thread, +REP Kamus!

 

[Ske]

-A brand new physics model that actually uses tyres as the first and most important thing of the simulation. (this would be the best scenario. and perhaps put GT simulation on the same league as enthusia.... or better.)
That not only that, but has a lot more updates per second than the old GT4 physics engine.

-A brand new physics engine, that still isn't as good as the one in enthusia because they don't start the engine from the ground up and rely on old methods as the base for it. (this would suck, but it could be an improvement.)

-Just a higher resolution engine based on the GT4 physics. that simply are more "unforgiving". (this would be the worse case scenario)
The physics in GT4 ran at 60 updates/sec, which is the same as the framerate, and Kaz had allready stated that on a PS3 version they would run that same engine at 360 times & sec. (note that he in no way was implying this because of hardware limits, he just would do it like that.), but this would still have the dreaded problem shown in the enthusia pictures on the link i posted. i REALLY REALLY hope it's not the case.

GT5P will have 2 physics modes.

"Standard" is an evolution of the GT4/GTHD model. GTHD IS different from GT4, it's just not very obvious. For instance countersteer snapback is severely less harsh, and you can do donuts now S and R tires have lower limits, and the longitudinal/lateral grip levels seem better balanced.

"Professional" will be a completely new model as far as I know, with much more hardcore physics, hopefully including proper tire simulation. They apparently brought in a D1 driver to test/approve grip and steering, for what that's worth.

 

[unv412]

Excelent post kamus, its just like you have the power to read my thoughts!!!!! LOL. I also love Enthusias physics engine (still play it every week) and hope GT5 gets it right this time....I'll still buy GT5 if it doesnt (just for the cars) the same way I hang to play my mates FM2 (just for the cars) but I always will come back to Enthusia......just for the gameplay!

 

[hansiu]

Excelent post kamus, its just like you have the power to read my thoughts!!!!! LOL. I also love Enthusias physics engine (still play it every week) and hope GT5 gets it right this time....I'll still buy GT5 if it doesnt (just for the cars) the same way I hang to play my mates FM2 (just for the cars) but I always will come back to Enthusia......just for the gameplay!

I feel exactly the same way, except that I think LFS is a tad better than Enthusia.

And if the driving in th city mode is real (which I doubt, at least for GT5) I would be in heaven

 

[Supra4]

Either way, the GT5 physics engine will be a tough beast to crack for setup experts. I managed to find out how PD recreated the laws of physics in GT3, and found out GT4 was based on the same simple formulas, abeit with different numerical values. That made it easier to find good setups for my cars.

I doubt it will be that simple in GT5 though. Really looking forward to it.

 

[profi]

The best physics ever... and also the best ai..

(..for me) were developed by a small Dev-Team called SYNETIC.

I think it was in 2003.. the game they made was MERCEDES-BENZ WORLD RACING. and it was only sold in europe (for PC).

The game had an arcade style scenery and most tracks were fantasy-tracks.
The polygons of the cars werent that much as in GT4 and also the colors overall werent realistic.

But the physics.. best ive ever seen, and i tried out nearly all racing-games.
You could do perfect slides and the cars really did what you expected them to in all situations. And for the ai: They did what a human would do - block you off, overtake you if they got any chance and (most important) they did not hit you off the road. They did very very fast (and logical) reactions

If anyone still has that game (with some dust on it though) go reinstall it, forget about the arcade like visuals and compare them to GT4.

And then please let me know: Dont you agree ?

 

[Biggles]

Well I hope that the new physics are a lot BETTER than Enthusia. I've been playing Enthusia a lot in the last few weeks & although there are a lot of good things about the Enthusia physics (especially the weight transfer) there are other things that are not so convincing.

In Enthusia, with a wheel, the steering is too "loose" (in contrast to GT4 where it is too "tight") & the grip (or loss of grip) is too smooth, both of which make the cars feel oddly weightless, particularly at high speed. (I always feel that in Enthusia it's the Tsukuba WET track that feels EXACTLY right with the way it models loss of grip: loose & smooth).

Switching back to GT4 after playing a lot of Enthusia, I find GT4 does feel noticeably unrealistic in its weight transfer, tire grip, & braking, but when I switch back to Enthusia again it does not neccessarily feel more "realistic" overall. Enthusia is fun partly because it demands your attention, particularly when driving powerful FR cars, & its physics are great for drifting.

The ideal would be physics that integrates the best of what GT & EPR have to offer (with a bit of Forza thrown in). Hopefully, that's what the new "professional" physics in GT4 will provide.

 

[Perfect Balance]

So far, I think Forza 2 has the best physics, along with sounds. Their race cars sound very much like the originals, especially the Ferrari's.


If gt5 can beat forza, it should be awesome.

 

[The Vanishing Boy]

-> I think we need Wolfe, in this thread to prove his point of view.

Here's mine-> I still just don't get it, so far in console games are concern I think GT comes close to real life in my book, even theres some glitches and faults. After test driving cars endlessly on a race track and on the streets, I do believe that GT comes 80% close compared to real life and 85% on GTHD. I've tried Forza 2 and Enthusia for that matter, and both of them don't have that certain 'feel' of the road as what GT does.

-> Enthusia although replicates the body motions very well, but it has that floaty feeling like you're playing Initial D 3rd Stage arcade game. While the much hyped Forza 2, feels somethings wrong with its suspension on the Mustang GT and the 997 Turbo (both stock). I've driven the 996 GT3 and the Mustang GT (both stock too) in real life; and both of those cars in the game feels like they don't even have any suspension travel, which makes those cars unusually stiff (the 997 Turbo is stiffer than the real life 996 GT3, in which that is not supposed to happen).

-> Every time I play any racing games in both arcades and on consoles. I usually use my real life driving into driving in the vitual world to see how close these games to real life. That's why my friends who plays Initial D, always wondering why I haven't changed my driving style after not playing the game for more than a year, and I still keep on beating them.

 

[Dave A]

Enthusias tracks are far too smooth, GT4 makes the road sufaces bumpy, which is good, but the actual car physics, the handling, is no better in GT4 than they are in EPR. EPR does it just as good/bad, but is more enjoyable to drive imo. Not because of the smooth roads, but because of the tyre physics, which in EPR are a lot better than GT4's.

 

[Biggles]

Enthusias tracks are far too smooth, GT4 makes the road sufaces bumpy, which is good, but the actual car physics, the handling, is no better in GT4 than they are in EPR. EPR does it just as good/bad, but is more enjoyable to drive imo. Not because of the smooth roads, but because of the tyre physics, which in EPR are a lot better than GT4's.

I would say the physics are much better in EPR than in GT4, but the actual feel of the driving (at least with a wheel) isn't as well done in EPR. That's why it takes a while to get used to the feel of driving in EPR & why, I believe, EPR never really caught on in popularity.

Combining the best of EPR with the best of GT4 (+ a smattering of Forza) = the Ultimate Driving Simulator.

 

[toyota_gt1]

If gt5 can beat forza, it should be awesome.

thats a pretty big statement. but then again, i feel fairly confident that forza will fall to gt.

 

[Kamus]

I would say the physics are much better in EPR than in GT4, but the actual feel of the driving (at least with a wheel) isn't as well done in EPR. That's why it takes a while to get used to the feel of driving in EPR & why, I believe, EPR never really caught on in popularity.

Combining the best of EPR with the best of GT4 (+ a smattering of Forza) = the Ultimate Driving Simulator.

Hmm, i don't know... to me the steering wheel in enthusia actually feels better than in GT4.
I think the reason people might feel it feels wrong might be because if you're using a DFP it's actually a LOT smaller than a real life car wheel, which results in you having to do bigger motions to get the car to turn.
If you notice in some enthusia videos, they have their very own steering wheel in japan, and the size of it is a lot closer to the ones you find in production cars.

 

[Muzaffar]

The best physics ever... and also the best ai..

(..for me) were developed by a small Dev-Team called SYNETIC.

I think it was in 2003.. the game they made was MERCEDES-BENZ WORLD RACING. and it was only sold in europe (for PC).

The game had an arcade style scenery and most tracks were fantasy-tracks.
The polygons of the cars werent that much as in GT4 and also the colors overall werent realistic.

But the physics.. best ive ever seen, and i tried out nearly all racing-games.
You could do perfect slides and the cars really did what you expected them to in all situations. And for the ai: They did what a human would do - block you off, overtake you if they got any chance and (most important) they did not hit you off the road. They did very very fast (and logical) reactions

If anyone still has that game (with some dust on it though) go reinstall it, forget about the arcade like visuals and compare them to GT4.

And then please let me know: Dont you agree ?

You know, i won't agree at all. Cause i think the game was reviewed on X-Play a long time ago and they gave a 2 out of 5. It lacks tracks and cars (not sure about the physics tho...) and its not supposed to be a sim. I think the F355 Challenge was much better that this....

As for all of you, i know i may get flamed or get booed from you about this but all of you are wrong! I mean there is no game that could be as close as Real Life!!!!! I mean there is some games that is close to real life but is just not the same. I have played both GT4,EPR and all sorts of racing titles (excluding Forza and PGR cause i got no XBOX )

If you want the closest to the real thing, play rFactor. It takes tons of physics into account from tire graining to weight shifting and even the telemetry looks realistic. But that of course is for the PC. If it was for the console i think there is none as good as GT4 (maybe R:Racing Evolution could be worth a try...) but that is just my opinion. So don't really take it seriously. I just can't wait to see how GT5 ca physics are going to be. Just looking at the video the physics and AI has really improved from GT4.

 

[amar212]

Actually, Profi says the truth.

Mercedes-Benz Word Racing was a grat driving game - Xbox version at least, PS2 game sucked big time, while I've never played PC version - with great physics. Not best, but very close to best.

That game had one-big-place-to-race-on 3 years before Test Drive Unlimited, great AI, great choice of Mercedes-Benz cars, excellent graphics for that time and nice features such as tyre-marks, smoke effects and visual damage.

Thumbs up for Profi, that game was such an ace. Shame that Synetic didn't continue to deliver in the same quaility as MBWR.

 

[Muzaffar]

Actually, Profi says the truth.

Mercedes-Benz Word Racing was a grat driving game - Xbox version at least, PS2 game sucked big time, while I've never played PC version - with great physics. Not best, but very close to best.

That game had one-big-place-to-race-on 3 years before Test Drive Unlimited, great AI, great choice of Mercedes-Benz cars, excellent graphics for that time and nice features such as tyre-marks, smoke effects and visual damage.

Thumbs up for Profi, that game was such an ace. Shame that Synetic didn't continue to deliver in the same quaility as MBWR.

Well i didn't play the game so i just don't know how fun the game is. But sounds like fun to me (well i could be wrong) But i just don't get it, why the PS2 version sucks? Its almost like TD:U missing some extra features compared to the other consoles....

Edit: Oh yeah, heres the review from X-Play. Thought i was right at there....

 

[Wolfe]

-> I think we need Wolfe, in this thread to prove his point of view.

I was going to let this thread go, but I can chip in.

The new physics engine has me REALLY intrigued.. just what is it?...

*snip*

No disagreements from me. 👍

The best physics ever... and also the best ai..

(..for me) were developed by a small Dev-Team called SYNETIC.

I think it was in 2003.. the game they made was MERCEDES-BENZ WORLD RACING.

I remember that game. It surprised me because it's much more realistic than you'd expect, but the physics are still lacking. It's been a while since I've played it, so I'm having a bit of trouble remembering the details, but if I recall correctly, the suspension modelling is too simplistic (and feels rather rigid), weight transfer is neither represented properly nor required for advanced driving maneuvers, oversteer slides seem to carry too much forward momentum, the tire slip-grip transition is too friendly and gradual, and you're given way too much overall grip. On top of it all, the game compensates for your steering input, including automatic countersteering, even if you're using a wheel.

Still, it's closer to reality than most arcade-style racing games, and it does an above-average job of making you feel like you're really behind the wheel.

In Enthusia, with a wheel, the steering is too "loose" (in contrast to GT4 where it is too "tight") & the grip (or loss of grip) is too smooth, both of which make the cars feel oddly weightless, particularly at high speed. (I always feel that in Enthusia it's the Tsukuba WET track that feels EXACTLY right with the way it models loss of grip: loose & smooth).

Enthusia's force-feedback is undeniably lacking, although I could also see someone getting used to it (eg. Kamus) and making it more of a non-issue.

The grip-slip transition, as I call it, is also friendlier/softer than it should be (as you pointed out), but in terms of roadcars, Enthusia gets closer to reality than almost anything out there. The R-class cars (which should have edgy, relatively unforgiving tires) are really the only ones that are ruined by this problem.

The ideal would be physics that integrates the best of what GT & EPR have to offer (with a bit of Forza thrown in). Hopefully, that's what the new "professional" physics in GT4 will provide.

No disagreement here. I believe EPR is far and away the most realistic of the three, but GT and Forza aren't entirely devoid of accuracy.

Enthusia although replicates the body motions very well, but it has that floaty feeling like you're playing Initial D 3rd Stage arcade game.

Although I can understand if you feel that Enthusia is floaty, I hope you're not trying to compare anything else about those two games...Initial D Arcade Stage Ver.3 is a bottom-feeder on the physics realism scale.

...GT4 makes the road sufaces bumpy...

...which is only a visual and force-feedback effect, and has no bearing on the physics engine itself...

As for all of you, i know i may get flamed or get booed from you about this but all of you are wrong! I mean there is no game that could be as close as Real Life!!!!! I mean there is some games that is close to real life but is just not the same.

You're right, a simulation will never be able to replace the real thing (at least not for a very, very, very long time). But you should do yourself a favor and try Live for Speed -- after doing so, you may become more optimistic.

 

[Muzaffar]

snip

You're right, a simulation will never be able to replace the real thing (at least not for a very, very, very long time). But you should do yourself a favor and try Live for Speed -- after doing so, you may become more optimistic.

Well i guess you are correct, LFS was quite good as well but i just can't get the full potential of the game cause of my PC. I mean i had to play most part of the game with just 15 fps, it was super lagging and when i played with some AI's on a single track it dropped to 6 fps. It was very frustrating to play it on my PC. But i guess that can't be helped....
But the good side of it was that i could drift the car handles very realistically and the damage was all good (although not realistic cars or tracks, but it was a license thing....)

 

[unv412]

LFS and rfactors physics are trully great but........you'll find bcause they're not referanced to any particular Real Life car, they're not tangible for comparison eg EVO IX in real life compared to EPR/GT/PGR+rest.The best bits from EPR(low speed) , GT (high speed) FM2 (launch/burnouts/crash physics) would be awesome!!!!

 

[Biggles]

was going to let this thread go, but I can chip in.

You know you gotta!

Enthusia's force-feedback is undeniably lacking, although I could also see someone getting used to it (eg. Kamus) and making it more of a non-issue.

I think I AM completely used to it now (please have a go at my Ring M3 time, Wolfe. ) The FF is pretty good but the wheel still doesn't feel right: the wheel resistance is too loose & "spongy" (kind of the opposite of GT4's which is too tight & "twitchy"). i.e. the EPR physics are the best, but the communication of that physics is lacking.

the best bits from EPR(low speed) , GT (high speed) FM2 (launch/burnouts/crash physics) would be awesome!!!!

Exactly! (Those are the bits from FM that are best - strangely, in EPR there are no launch/burnout physics at all, in spite of the other tire physics being so much more accurate).

 

[Beerz]

Seems to me that GT5's new physics (the standard one, because the 'professional' has not been released in any vid that I know of) is an improvement of GTHD's physics, which IS better than GT4's regardless of what people say, and is not the same as GT4.

Hope there's some footage of the 'professional mode' physics engine soon, can't wait to see the difference. But please, with someone that knows what they're doing on the game, not playing the game as if it was freaking 'OutRun'.

 

[namregzepol]

I don't think we will note the difference between standard physics and professional physics in a video. I mean that it's a matter of feeling more than a visual one.

Anyway i expect more videos too...

 

[Raitziger]

Hope they get that G25 to work with clutch, H-gate and full FFB. Currently they are working in "DFP-mode" with on sequential and one of two force motors.

 

[Biggles]

Hope they get that G25 to work with clutch, H-gate and full FFB. Currently they are working in "DFP-mode" with on sequential and one of two force motors.

Does Gt4 not use both the FF motors in the G25?

Clutch would be nice, but I'm a bit concerned about the H-gate shifter. I wonder if it's really robust enough on the G25 to work well (I've never been able to try it on anything)? It seems a bit flimsy compared to a real shifter, whereas the other components of the G25 are really solid.

 

[Kamus]

Does Gt4 not use both the FF motors in the G25?

Clutch would be nice, but I'm a bit concerned about the H-gate shifter. I wonder if it's really robust enough on the G25 to work well (I've never been able to try it on anything)? It seems a bit flimsy compared to a real shifter, whereas the other components of the G25 are really solid.

While it doesn't surprise me people want clutch & H shifter support. It really surprises me that one one asks for the one thing that would make the driving experience a lot more genuine:
A pressure sensitive brake. This would, in my book be an even bigger add on than clutch & H shifter (but here's to hoping we get evrything.)
If you get any professional racer to drive in a ps2 sim with any of the current wheels, their first complaint is not even physics, it's the brake pedal.
I myself spent like 430 bucks on ECCI pedals that feature a pressure sensitive brake, and it does add to the experience.
But i imagine we'd get better results if it had some sort of motor that was controled with software, so it would vary from car to car.
I would be more than happy to pay extra for just pedals like that. (even if it was offered as a separete package.)

And oh yeah, it keeps getting mentioned that the steering in EPR feels lose. like Wolfe said, i think this is a problem with the R class cars only.
The reason it might feel lose on road cars is because of the SIZE of the DFP, it's way too small for a road car.

 

[Biggles]

While it doesn't surprise me people want clutch & H shifter support. It really surprises me that one one asks for the one thing that would make the driving experience a lot more genuine:
A pressure sensitive brake.

I'm not sure what you mean by "pressure sensitive". My G25 brake pedal certainly seems pressure sensitive - not that different from my car, I think.

Come to think of it, one of the other complaints about the physics in EPR & GT4 is how you can't really lock the brakes. On the other hand in Forza it's hard NOT to lock the brakes

And oh yeah, it keeps getting mentioned that the steering in EPR feels lose. like Wolfe said, i think this is a problem with the R class cars only.
The reason it might feel lose on road cars is because of the SIZE of the DFP, it's way too small for a road car.

I think the smaller wheel size does have something to do with it, but, of course GT4 uses the same small wheel. However, I find the steering LESS loose feeling in the R cars. In the road cars the steering response is sort of spongy - you don't feel the weight of the car when you turn the wheel. (At 150 mph its possible to wiggle the wheel without causing any movement in the car.) After a while you get used to this, but it would be a lot more convincing (& more fun) if the wheel transmitted the feel of the weight transfer (which is modelled very well in EPR) better.

 

[Wolfe]

LFS and rfactors physics are trully great but........you'll find bcause they're not referanced to any particular Real Life car, they're not tangible for comparison eg EVO IX in real life compared to EPR/GT/PGR+rest.

We have more than enough information to compare the Live for Speed cars to real life -- their horsepower, weight, etc...even their suspension design and spring/damper rates are avaliable for us to analyze, in real units (no 1-10 scales or slider bars like most console games).

Besides, if you use LFSTweak or some similar program, you can create something quite close to almost any real-world car.

...please have a go at my Ring M3 time, Wolfe.

Done.

...strangely, in EPR there are no launch/burnout physics at all, in spite of the other tire physics being so much more accurate).

It's all in the computer-controlled clutch, which doesn't allow massive wheelspin and won't spin the wheels with the brakes depressed.

 

[unv412]

We have more than enough information to compare the Live for Speed cars to real life -- their horsepower, weight, etc...even their suspension design and spring/damper rates are avaliable for us to analyze, in real units (no 1-10 scales or slider bars like most console games).

Besides, if you use LFSTweak or some similar program, you can create something quite close to almost any real-world car.

yes, but "I" have to do all the tweaks all by myself or have someone give it to me (alot of time to be spent if to replicate over 300+ cars) , I barely have enough time to play GT4/EPR (married with 10month old child + 9-5 work) .Again no doubt that LFS is the best , but not all that accessable really.

 

[Wolfe]

yes, but "I" have to do all the tweaks all by myself or have someone give it to me (alot of time to be spent if to replicate over 300+ cars) , I barely have enough time to play GT4/EPR (married with 10month old child + 9-5 work) .Again no doubt that LFS is the best , but not all that accessable really.

You don't have to do any tweaks at all. They're only an option, something fun to do when you're bored of driving the default cars.

Sorry, but I don't understand why you think you need to replicate 300+ cars just to be able to compare Live for Speed to real life. As long as the cars in LFS are true to their specifications, it shouldn't matter if they're modelled after real cars or not.