GT6: Livery Editor: Ideas?

[CodeName]

Whatever. I should know better by now to argue with gamers. My point was simply not to get your hopes up for a livery editor the quality of Forza, because you probably won't get it. If I had to guess, I would say, at best, we'll see presets that we can paint. I still have no idea why people think that GT and Forza are the same game. Seriously, if one game doesn't have something the other has, everyone starts whining and crying. They're not the same game, not the same team, even. Heck, they're not even made in the same country. All these things I've tried to explain to everyone, but they don't understand. The Xbox 360 is the better console in terms of graphical memory. the PS3 has what, a quarter of the graphical power of the 360. It's why the PS3 was such a pain to develop for. And you're right, Kaz, hasn't said they can't do a 1000+ layer livery editor because of the graphical limitations of the system. However, with GT5 already pushing the system to the limits, and GT6 simply moving things around to get a little more out of the system, and with the fact that GT5 was already having some issues with layered liveries, common sense would dictate that a 1000+ layers wouldn't physically be possible on the PS3. Something like the Malmut Peugeot and M&M NASCAR wouldn't have a lot of layers. You could probably do those with less than 100 layers. But, as I said, I seriously doubt will be receiving anything as complex as a Forza livery. Remember, Kaz himself said there probably won't be a full livery editor.

PS3 has CELL, that in fact, is wayyyyyyh more performant than Xbox 360. The other thig is that CELL is too much difficult to develop on. But now that PD knows how to handle the CPU properly, they can do miracles, just look at GT5, the inimaginable constant frame rate with even 16 cars on track, at night, or/and in rain (when I say constant, it means it's good). Also the graphic level of a premium model... I think too much for a PS3 it seems lol. GT5 would never come to Xbox 360 because it is farrr less powerfull.

 

[SuperShouden]

It had a Cell and then 512MB of graphical memory. Which is terrible. PS3 can handle certain things better like light and shading which is probably why games like Forza had to over expose their games whereas PS3 games like GT didn't. But, like I said, all that power without the graphical capabilities to use it is a crying shame. It's probably why Sony went with so much graphical memory with the PS4.

The issue wasn't having to figure out the CPU, it was figuring out how to use the limited Graphics that they had. And, with PD so eager to have 1080p and 3D that makes it even harder on them.

And GT5 didn't have consistant frame-rates when there was rain. I remember significant slow downs with 16 cars in the rain. IT was only when I got away from the pack that the game sped up.

You are right, though, having the Cell does mean that GT5 would never have been able to work on the Xbox 360. Heck, Turn10 had workarounds for so much in Forza 4, it's not even funny. I mean...they had 3 separate models for some cars. (Autovista, garage and in-game.)

But this really isn't a Forza vs. GT or PS3 vs. Xbox 360 discussion. It's a Livery editor discussion.

Muo, I know there are other games with livery editors. I know that, but there doesn't seem to be many others who know that. BTW, I doubt we'll see even something as complicated as the livery editor from the Ferrari games. Even that might be asking too much.

I keep saying it and I'll keep repeating it: the 15th Anniversary cars are probably the extent of the livery editor. But, we'll find out for sure in a couple weeks at TGS.

 

[CodeName]

It had a Cell and then 512MB of graphical memory. Which is terrible. PS3 can handle certain things better like light and shading which is probably why games like Forza had to over expose their games whereas PS3 games like GT didn't. But, like I said, all that power without the graphical capabilities to use it is a crying shame. It's probably why Sony went with so much graphical memory with the PS4.

The issue wasn't having to figure out the CPU, it was figuring out how to use the limited Graphics that they had. And, with PD so eager to have 1080p and 3D that makes it even harder on them.

And GT5 didn't have consistant frame-rates when there was rain. I remember significant slow downs with 16 cars in the rain. IT was only when I got away from the pack that the game sped up.

You are right, though, having the Cell does mean that GT5 would never have been able to work on the Xbox 360. Heck, Turn10 had workarounds for so much in Forza 4, it's not even funny. I mean...they had 3 separate models for some cars. (Autovista, garage and in-game.)

But this really isn't a Forza vs. GT or PS3 vs. Xbox 360 discussion. It's a Livery editor discussion.

Muo, I know there are other games with livery editors. I know that, but there doesn't seem to be many others who know that. BTW, I doubt we'll see even something as complicated as the livery editor from the Ferrari games. Even that might be asking too much.

I keep saying it and I'll keep repeating it: the 15th Anniversary cars are probably the extent of the livery editor. But, we'll find out for sure in a couple weeks at TGS.

I agree with you, but you have to know that the GPU helps the CPU in calculations, and not the opposite

 

[P_Lav]

Why does layer limit have to be considered... I can't believe no racing game has considered... Just using the layer/shape system, but instead of leaving them floating, lock them perminately once your satisfied, and turn it into a standard skin file like most pc games do? That way, when you reach the processing ability of having 900 layers, you merge them, turn it into a standard image file, and vol ah, add a 900 layers to that. Think of the complexity and intricacy players could obtain. Even Forza fails at that, I sticker bombed a fender on a Miata for a drift missile, added one scrape from the vinyl group market place, and couldn't add one more vinyl to black out the roof.

 

[Griffith500]

Why does layer limit have to be considered... I can't believe no racing game has considered... Just using the layer/shape system, but instead of leaving them floating, lock them perminately once your satisfied, and turn it into a standard skin file like most pc games do? That way, when you reach the processing ability of having 900 layers, you merge them, turn it into a standard image file, and vol ah, add a 900 layers to that. Think of the complexity and intricacy players could obtain. Even Forza fails at that, I sticker bombed a fender on a Miata for a drift missile, added one scrape from the vinyl group market place, and couldn't add one more vinyl to black out the roof.

A flatten tool might be nice, but that makes editing harder. Unless you have multiple arrays of 900 layers you can switch between (big loading pauses), with the others flattened. Obviously, each flattened layer becomes a layer in the new array; e.g. the second array can only have 899 new layers - that'd give a maximum total of 405450 layers, effectively, from 900 working layers. The (editable) livery file would be massive, of course.

 

[SuperShouden]

I agree with you, but you have to know that the GPU helps the CPU in calculations, and not the opposite

Right. And the PS3's GPU can't handle the CPU output from the Cell. It's kinda like a 12 lane highway suddenly going down to 2 lanes.

And as for "floating" layers. To be clear, the layers are exactly "floating" but they're not flat, either. But, think about this, Forza 4's livery editor allowed for 1000 layers on the roof, 1000 layers for each side and another 500 each for the front and back. That's a total of 4000 layers. That allows for extremely complex designs and liveries. If we WERE to get a full livery editor in GT6, I'd expect maybe a tenth of that. So 400 layers. And there are "stickers" in Forza that are bigger than that. But, I'm not going to get my hopes up for even that.

 

[Imari]

But now that PD knows how to handle the CPU properly, they can do miracles, just look at GT5, the inimaginable constant frame rate with even 16 cars on track, at night, or/and in rain (when I say constant, it means it's good).

Come back when you're playing the same game as the rest of us. 16 premiums on track in the rain drops below 30 at times. The classic example being:



Still, any user-created liveries need not take up any more memory than whatever "liveries" they're using now. So no performance hit.

 

[05XR8]

....What the heck is up with some people and liveries? Who wouldn't want to create iconic race cars or rally cars, Not to mention it puts replay ability through the roof. it's almost sad that people are actually against a livery system, Something that could really strengthen the game.

made this.

This is what i want but in GT. people need to wake up. Every serious sim racer has some type of livery system.

What's really not cool Is we had I think 2 or 3 versions of this very livery to choose from when you did a race modification of this Skyline in GT2.

 

[White & Nerdy]

I can comfirm we had 3.

 

[SuperShouden]

Come back when you're playing the same game as the rest of us. 16 premiums on track in the rain drops below 30 at times. The classic example being:



Still, any user-created liveries need not take up any more memory than whatever "liveries" they're using now. So no performance hit.

Except they would. If you take a picture on a computer and move it, it'll move smoothly. But, if you start adding more and more layers to it, it begins to slow down because the computer has to calculate not just the moving picture but the movement of all the custom layers on that picture. If done improperly, the extra layers could smear and warp and glitch. And a custom livery is essentially a picture with a bunch of layers.

To NOT take a hit to memory they'd have to use presets. I would even suspect that a car with a full 4000 layer livery in Forza at least loads a little slower than a car a stock livery.

 

[Griffith500]

In Forza, I believe the livery is loaded as a flat texture (it would also be the sensible way to do it, rather than each layer separately). This could theoretically be the same size as any texture already used for that purpose in the game, assuming they were mapped in the same way.

 

[Imari]

Except they would. If you take a picture on a computer and move it, it'll move smoothly. But, if you start adding more and more layers to it, it begins to slow down because the computer has to calculate not just the moving picture but the movement of all the custom layers on that picture. If done improperly, the extra layers could smear and warp and glitch. And a custom livery is essentially a picture with a bunch of layers.

To NOT take a hit to memory they'd have to use presets. I would even suspect that a car with a full 4000 layer livery in Forza at least loads a little slower than a car a stock livery.

Except what Griff said. Why bother with all the things that could go wrong loading a multi-layer livery when you can flatten it and get the same result with none of the drawbacks?

Custom liveries in GT6 need not be any more taxing on performance in-race than a full field of NASCARs is in GT5 right now.

 

[SuperShouden]

Except for a NASCAR livery is a lot less complicated than people seem to think. NASCAR cars have a single sponsor which designs the livery with the help of NASCAR. So you're argument that the custom liveries in GT6 don't have to be more complicated than a NASCAR livery still doesn't counter my "Don't expect a super complex livery editor and 4000 layers like Forza" argument.

 

[Imari]

Except for a NASCAR livery is a lot less complicated than people seem to think. NASCAR cars have a single sponsor which designs the livery with the help of NASCAR. So you're argument that the custom liveries in GT6 don't have to be more complicated than a NASCAR livery still doesn't counter my "Don't expect a super complex livery editor and 4000 layers like Forza" argument.

What do sponsors have to do with anything? It's not about design, it's purely about mapping an image to a car. If the layers are flattened beforehand, it's entirely irrelevant how complex the design is. A mono-colour "livery" is equivalent to say, the BMW art car.

Have you ever done any livery editing on PC sims? If all the experience you have is Forza, you may not really be understanding what's going on behind the scenes.

 

[SuperShouden]

I've don't done some livery editors on the PC. But, the reason I keep using Forza is 'cause people keep posting pictures of their liveried Forza 4 car and expecting/wanting to be able to do that. All I'm really saying is GT6's livery editor probably isn't going to be that complex.

 

[05XR8]

I can comfirm we had 3.

Coo

 

[newworldmystics]

In the livery editor, lots of shapes, lots of decals, letters, numbers, etc. Why do we want a livery editor? Why do us GT players want a GT6 livery editor? It's because we want to feel unique. We want to feel special from all the other racers in the game. We want that accomplished feeling of having that special car that no one has, but may possibly mimic. If you don't want it, why? It won't hurt you if it's in the game.

 

[Bowtie-muscle]

I would be happy if PD gave us the ability to do what they have already done. Think about stealth models and Camaro Edge Special, GT logo, stripes and white skirts. Allow us to do similiar, with the ability to change color! Perhaps manufacturers logo instead of GT. Give us the choice. Also, number plates, up to 3 digits 0-9 each, with options for placement, or just numbers similiar to NASCAR style. Stripe options, double like '10 Camaro, single like Grand Sport, or thin stripes like BMW would typically use. Finally, side stripe options like the '10 Camaro hockey stripe, or generic shapes such as circle, square, triangle, etc. etc................What do you think?💡

 

[Johnnypenso]

I would be happy if PD gave us the ability to do what they have already done. Think about stealth models and Camaro Edge Special, GT logo, stripes and white skirts. Allow us to do similiar, with the ability to change color! Perhaps manufacturers logo instead of GT. Give us the choice. Also, number plates, up to 3 digits 0-9 each, with options for placement, or just numbers similiar to NASCAR style. Stripe options, double like '10 Camaro, single like Grand Sport, or thin stripes like BMW would typically use. Finally, side stripe options like the '10 Camaro hockey stripe, or generic shapes such as circle, square, triangle, etc. etc................What do you think?💡

Compared to what we have now, this would be very welcome. I don't think we'll be seeing a full livery editor on PS3, so every little bit helps. A set of stripes, different logos and stickers, the ability to paint different parts of the car separately should be achievable on PS3.

 

[sailworksman]

It's simple, follow the Forza model. The ability to buy/share/sell one's work is sweet. There is a ton of talent out there. Would love to slap on the old Elf livery on a F1 car!!

 

[HKS racer]

Compared to what we have now, this would be very welcome. I don't think we'll be seeing a full livery editor on PS3, so every little bit helps. A set of stripes, different logos and stickers, the ability to paint different parts of the car separately should be achievable on PS3.

Breaking News:
PS3 hardware is actually capable to run a similar Forza Motorsport livery editor.
Just think about Supercar Challenge and Ferrari Challenge. Livery editor was nothing special but still enough to made stuff like this:

Bottom line: livery editor not being in Gran Turismo not because hardware limitations, because of developers not interested in the feature.

 

[stiggygonzalez]

Supercar challenge doesn't really push the boundaries of the PS3 like GT.

EDIT:in saying that I'm no game dev so I'm just guessing as Kaz doesn't communicate to well
about his game to potential customers.

 

[HKS racer]

Supercar challenge doesn't really push the boundaries of the PS3 like GT.

So?
Breaking News: Photoshop invented "rasterize" button. Just order the livery editor to rasterize the final result when you are on track. And keep all the single layers modification avaliable when you are in the livery editor menu.

 

[amar212]

So?
Breaking News: Photoshop invented "rasterize" button. Just order the livery editor to rasterize the final result when you are on track. And keep all the single layers modification avaliable when you are in the livery editor menu.

Same what Forza does since forever, yes.

Once flattened, layers information becomes a simple reflective bitmap with same characteristics as "car paint" below. It literally adds nothing to performance load.

AKA: what you concluded above. And Livery Editor in both FCC/SCC was 100% blatant ripoff of Forza one, in every field imaginable. It even had the same horrific default fonts.

 

[HKS racer]

Same what Forza does since forever, yes.

Once flattened, layers information becomes a simple reflective bitmap with same characteristics as "car paint" below. It literally adds nothing to performance load.

AKA: what you concluded above. And Livery Editor in both FCC/SCC was 100% blatant ripoff of Forza one, in every field imaginable. It even had the same horrific default fonts.

Ok, but I don't get why you should use words like "rip off" "blatant" "horrific" on FCC/SCC livery editor. It wasn't a superb one but at least it was something. Look at the images posted above, clean looking race cars as a final result. That is a lot in my book. Did they copy Turn 10? Yes! And they had very good reasons for it. Turn 10 had a brilliant idea that helped them to gain market shares on racing games business. Let's think about Forza without a livery editor, I can't imagine the same success, not by a long shot.

 

[Samus]

Supercar challenge doesn't really push the boundaries of the PS3 like GT.

EDIT:in saying that I'm no game dev so I'm just guessing as Kaz doesn't communicate to well
about his game to potential customers.

If you're talking about the livery editor itself what does it matter what the rest of the game is doing? All the game will be running is the livery editor, it won't be stressing anything out. As for using those finished liveries in game yes that would bring the boundary pushing into play but as mentioned above, once you flatten it into one flat layer the complexity of the original design is irrelevent. You could design something with 300,000 layers in Photoshop, once you flatten them down to a normal image it's no different than an image sourced from something with 20 layers. An image is an image.

 

[stiggygonzalez]

If you're talking about the livery editor itself what does it matter what the rest of the game is doing? All the game will be running is the livery editor, it won't be stressing anything out. As for using those finished liveries in game yes that would bring the boundary pushing into play but as mentioned above, once you flatten it into one flat layer the complexity of the original design is irrelevent. You could design something with 300,000 layers in Photoshop, once you flatten them down to a normal image it's no different than an image sourced from something with 20 layers. An image is an image.

Oh right of course I understand now.
That makes sense and would back up the point slipstream has made in the another thread about pre-made liveries on super GT cars.
So there is definitely NO excuse for PD not providing a livery editor.(at least non to do with hardware)

 

[Youngun]

Well if they put as much thought in a livery editor as they have the track creator and suspension set-up (see news feed) then it could be amazing but alas, to no avail. Maybe GT7 using the DS4s touch pad or duelled with an App. Little but of customising is ok for me but need more car to put it on. The Crew or Driveclub is where it is needed to be as a unit/team. GT6....well to show sponsors and or team name but not really much else.

 

[omnibusse]

GT won't get a livery editor until Kaz is completely satisfied with it. Due to the fact that he's a perfectionist, expect us to wait forever.

I would be happy with an editor which lets me choose colors freely, put some decals on the cars, add a racing number and that's it. At least for some months.

Better get something like that than getting nothing because it's not perfect yet.

 

[King1982]

Diz