GT6: Livery Editor: Ideas?
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Yes King. We know you're a good artist in F4, no need to show off. 
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Alice Cooper voice: We're all clowns... wait, that's not right. 
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Hey guys. When Kaz said the livery editor wasn't going to be "full", maybe it'll be like NFS Rivals Livery Editor (basic). I just watched it, and thought "so this is what Kaz meant"?
I don't know, gotta wait till TGS to see what type it is, but it could be like NFS Rivals livery editor.
Go see for yourself, the one from Gamescom.
I don't know, gotta wait till TGS to see what type it is, but it could be like NFS Rivals livery editor.
Go see for yourself, the one from Gamescom.As long as the editor has the ability to do these, I don't mind either the Forza way, or as some people said, transfer image from PC.
However, I do think the Forza way is somehow "safer". If we could simply copy images to the game, I do believe a lot of people will use it the "wrong way".
With the difficulty by doing it the "Forza way", a lot those trouble maker will give up the idea because they either can't do it, or it's not worth for them to go through that much trouble and time just for something so stupid.
Actually, Forza has a very good community on keeping the design storefront healthy, the troublesome and stolen liveries and the creator of those are often take down by Turn 10 team within half hour after report (If you do it the right way, that is), so I don't see the problem of having something similar in GT, in fact, I really really want it.
However, I do think the Forza way is somehow "safer". If we could simply copy images to the game, I do believe a lot of people will use it the "wrong way".
With the difficulty by doing it the "Forza way", a lot those trouble maker will give up the idea because they either can't do it, or it's not worth for them to go through that much trouble and time just for something so stupid.
Actually, Forza has a very good community on keeping the design storefront healthy, the troublesome and stolen liveries and the creator of those are often take down by Turn 10 team within half hour after report (If you do it the right way, that is), so I don't see the problem of having something similar in GT, in fact, I really really want it.
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They look great (not my bag, mind you), but I just don't see something as detailed as that working with the texture detail available (or rather demonstrated) in GT5. There isn't really anything comparable to that in the game, and the detail is still lacking overall.
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- Patanime237
Not likely to be like that in GT6, despite how much that would improve the GT experience.As long as the editor has the ability to do these, I don't mind either the Forza way, or as some people said, transfer image from PC.
However, I do think the Forza way is somehow "safer". If we could simply copy images to the game, I do believe a lot of people will use it the "wrong way".
With the difficulty by doing it the "Forza way", a lot those trouble maker will give up the idea because they either can't do it, or it's not worth for them to go through that much trouble and time just for something so stupid.
Actually, Forza has a very good community on keeping the design storefront healthy, the troublesome and stolen liveries and the creator of those are often take down by Turn 10 team within half hour after report (If you do it the right way, that is), so I don't see the problem of having something similar in GT, in fact, I really really want it.
But oh, if that was possible I would spend every waking moment in the paint booth. Far too often I've considered buying a 360 and Forza just because the livery editor is sooo good. After the Xbox One comes out and the price goes down, I probably will do just that.
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Sasek
I hope if they do it you have a option to turn off all liveries online. Or if one bothers you, you can "mute" that players liveries like you mute the annoying players on mics.
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- youngun_great
I hate to say this but if it is very free then they should adopt the same method as activision did with the Emblem editor. That little report abusive "Emblem" button in the sub menu, the amount of people i've seen with a blocked emblem is amazing. All because of abusive, offensive, pornographic, racial etc. some don't even get it back after multiple blocks.
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Whatever PD puts into the game. These Forza examples are nice, but it's certain that gT6 won't be like this. I don't mind really.
I'll settle for just a couple of preset decals for each car, which is how I imagine the "livery editor" will be in GT6. Pretty much like the options for changing aero part in GT5. Just a couple of options like A, B or C. Let's face it; that's how's going to be.
I'll settle for just a couple of preset decals for each car, which is how I imagine the "livery editor" will be in GT6. Pretty much like the options for changing aero part in GT5. Just a couple of options like A, B or C. Let's face it; that's how's going to be.
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If this is considered basic, then I hope this is the level they're produced.
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Well as kaz said that theres thousands of aero parts (guessing not for each car) so why couldn't the editor have that many options. It is a thing that could be updated via the updates anyway. I would just love to make crazy cars like this
Just to see them drive by.
Just to see them drive by.
research
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SuperShouden
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I'm guessing we can get a REALLY good idea of what the Livery editor will be like from the 15th Anniversary Edition cars. It's probably not going to be nearly as detailed as Forza's simply because it's not something PD is focusing on. PD has always been more interested in the cars and tracks than painting and damaging them. Eventually, yeah, I can see PD having something similar to Forza's livery editor, but for now, with the PS3 already pushed to it's limits, loading special, complex liveries might be asking for a bit too much. I would only expect something simple. Like the ability to put stickers on windshields, body painting, and maybe a handful of shapes like the racing stripes and numbers scene on the 15th Anniversary cars.
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- Neomone
If they can have liveries this complex in game right now, there's nothing stopping them from loading similarly complex player made designs.
All that is missing is the actual editor itself. That may or may not be difficult, I don't know. But the inner Clarkson is hollering "How hard can it be?".
SuperShouden
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I meant complex, custom liveries. Which, you should have figured out what I was talking about via context, but whatever. There IS a difference between the complex liveries already on the cars and a complex, 1000 layer livery put on the car by a user. One is a lot less complex than it seems because it's pretty much the skin of the car. And all the places you can take those vehicles would already have that car with that livery encoded into it, so it'd load fast, quick and without issue.
Creating a NEW livery is completely different. Anyone who played Forza 2 knows how much custom liveries can screw up online play. And the more complex the liveries the more issues the game had. If GT6 is pushing the game to the limits at what the system can do, then a 1000 layer custom designed super complex livery might just crash the system every time it loaded. (And multiply that by 16, good luck with that.) Even Kaz mentioned that a complex livery editor like Forza's isn't possible in GT6. As I said before, the 15th Anniversary liveries is probably about as complex as the system can handle, maybe a smidge more.
My POINT WAS don't expect the ability to create anime girls on your cars with GT6. Heck, they MIGHT even go with preset designs like Grid 1 or PGR4. Then all the game would really have to change is the colors, which is a lot less labor intensive than loading a bunch of custom layers.
P.S. I also love how you showed one photo from inside GT5 and the other two are real cars. Yes, the others on in GT5, but still, nice way to make a point.
Creating a NEW livery is completely different. Anyone who played Forza 2 knows how much custom liveries can screw up online play. And the more complex the liveries the more issues the game had. If GT6 is pushing the game to the limits at what the system can do, then a 1000 layer custom designed super complex livery might just crash the system every time it loaded. (And multiply that by 16, good luck with that.) Even Kaz mentioned that a complex livery editor like Forza's isn't possible in GT6. As I said before, the 15th Anniversary liveries is probably about as complex as the system can handle, maybe a smidge more.
My POINT WAS don't expect the ability to create anime girls on your cars with GT6. Heck, they MIGHT even go with preset designs like Grid 1 or PGR4. Then all the game would really have to change is the colors, which is a lot less labor intensive than loading a bunch of custom layers.
P.S. I also love how you showed one photo from inside GT5 and the other two are real cars. Yes, the others on in GT5, but still, nice way to make a point.
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Please show where he said this. Because this quote contradicts it:
Not to mention, the posts here seem to state otherwise that a livery editor in GT6 isn't impossible.
SuperShouden
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Obviously it's possible. That's not in contention. What is is whether what we get will allow us to make liveries to the same overall quality that is already in the game.
Two cars that show some interesting behaviour: the 2010 Jeff Gordon NASCAR and the HKS CT230R.
The former has some obvious texture layering that causes weird mipmap effects (that aren't capturable in photomode photos, as it always uses the highest mips - you have to see it in real time) - it's particularly noticeable around the flame edges, where the yellow / blue highlighting is of a higher resolution than the underlying flame colours - clearly the highlighting is meant to delineate the low-res under-layer better. That car also has a lot of instancing of decals all over it. It's not just "a simple bitmap" like what Forza's finished liveries are.
The HKS has polygon shapes comprising parts of the livery - this might be a limitation with the materials system (chrome parts), or simply because it's the only way to get sharp edges over a large area of the car. I doubt they're layered over it so much as cut into the mesh underneath, such that it's all one piece. Tricky to do that for the general case. It also has decals over it.
Two cars that show some interesting behaviour: the 2010 Jeff Gordon NASCAR and the HKS CT230R.
The former has some obvious texture layering that causes weird mipmap effects (that aren't capturable in photomode photos, as it always uses the highest mips - you have to see it in real time) - it's particularly noticeable around the flame edges, where the yellow / blue highlighting is of a higher resolution than the underlying flame colours - clearly the highlighting is meant to delineate the low-res under-layer better. That car also has a lot of instancing of decals all over it. It's not just "a simple bitmap" like what Forza's finished liveries are.
The HKS has polygon shapes comprising parts of the livery - this might be a limitation with the materials system (chrome parts), or simply because it's the only way to get sharp edges over a large area of the car. I doubt they're layered over it so much as cut into the mesh underneath, such that it's all one piece. Tricky to do that for the general case. It also has decals over it.
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Still waiting for where he said a livery editor like Forza's isn't possible in GT6. Just because he said one will not be available doesn't automatically mean because of hardware limitations.
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- Patanime237
Even if there is some technical reason holding back a complex, Forza-style editor, there is absolutely no reason they can't include the ability to upload schemes painted with Photoshop or something. They could release templates for all the cars on their website and then you paint your car, then upload it to your game.
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- Neomone
For some reason you seem to think that all thousand layers of custom layers are loaded for each car, for every race.
Think about this. If I'm editing an image in Photoshop, each change I make is in it's own layer so that I can change or remove any individual part as I see fit. The file for any reasonable size image with a substantial amount of layer will be in the tens of megabytes, possibly hundreds of megabytes.
If I simply want to display the image, I can flatten all those layers to one. The image looks identical, but now I can't change anything. The file size goes from possibly hundreds of megabytes to maybe one megabyte.
What makes you think that any layer based editing system wouldn't make use of similar technology? The concept isn't new, and it'll certainly be familiar to any artistic types that would be working on liveries at a dev studio. That's the way PC sims handle it.
A custom livery editor is absolutely possible in GT6. The level of quality that would be available for said livery is debatable, and how much work would be involved to actually produce a working editor. But there's no real technical obstacle to doing it.
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Seriously, I'm no proffesional CAD artist, but I can appreciate the complexities... lots of amateur speculation about what PD can and can't do going on here, and actually none of us know...
... I would say the safest bet is PD won't include something that would not stand the scrutiny of Photomode.. (unless of course it was a standard!!!)
Seriously as a community we piss and moan enough about tiny things... imagine if it turned out liveries were just Jpegs wrapped around a complex mesh... that'd be a real compromise.
... I would say the safest bet is PD won't include something that would not stand the scrutiny of Photomode.. (unless of course it was a standard!!!)
Seriously as a community we piss and moan enough about tiny things... imagine if it turned out liveries were just Jpegs wrapped around a complex mesh... that'd be a real compromise.
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- Neomone
Why would that be a problem? That's more or less how everyone else does it. Not a JPG, obviously, but the idea is not far removed.
The creation of the UV map in a sensible way is difficult. It seems possible that for some cars they haven't actually created UV maps, but the standards have painted on shutlines and the like and so likely are at least partially mapped.
The creation of an editing tool that lets people place art in a user-friendly way is difficult. Allowing direct import of specified images from PC is a work around, but it's hardly elegant and it goes pretty strongly against the user-friendly aspect of consoles.
The thing is, I'm sure it's not totally easy but this is not a ground breaking feature. Standard tech exists to get this working in a simplistic way. Maybe there's a giant obstacle in there, but I'm not seeing it. It's just not a priority for them.
I think this is another one of those things, "we'll see it in GT7". There's starting to be a fairly big list of these: substantially improved sounds, AI, stable frame rate, etc. And if a livery editor still isn't in GT7, then what? Is it just not that important?
I think it should be important. Developers are always looking for ways to keep people involved and playing their game. People spend hours and days and weeks making that perfect livery. Having a livery editor is a huge gameplay boost, and as a side effect it also delivers a great variety of liveries to all players.
SuperShouden
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Whatever. I should know better by now to argue with gamers. My point was simply not to get your hopes up for a livery editor the quality of Forza, because you probably won't get it. If I had to guess, I would say, at best, we'll see presets that we can paint. I still have no idea why people think that GT and Forza are the same game. Seriously, if one game doesn't have something the other has, everyone starts whining and crying. They're not the same game, not the same team, even. Heck, they're not even made in the same country. All these things I've tried to explain to everyone, but they don't understand. The Xbox 360 is the better console in terms of graphical memory. the PS3 has what, a quarter of the graphical power of the 360. It's why the PS3 was such a pain to develop for. And you're right, Kaz, hasn't said they can't do a 1000+ layer livery editor because of the graphical limitations of the system. However, with GT5 already pushing the system to the limits, and GT6 simply moving things around to get a little more out of the system, and with the fact that GT5 was already having some issues with layered liveries, common sense would dictate that a 1000+ layers wouldn't physically be possible on the PS3. Something like the Malmut Peugeot and M&M NASCAR wouldn't have a lot of layers. You could probably do those with less than 100 layers. But, as I said, I seriously doubt will be receiving anything as complex as a Forza livery. Remember, Kaz himself said there probably won't be a full livery editor.
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