GT7 and SimHub Tactile discussion
- Thread starter gti_sdn
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- 1,303
- Canada
- the-1st-hawkeyez
Yeah I noticed that yesterday, it’s also road vibration, road bumps and maybe some other stuff. I noticed if you’re in a lobby, no vibration, enter and run a lap, vibration as expected, go back to the lobby screen, still vibration but if you cancel entry it goes away. hopefully it gets fixed but if not I’m just glad the option of tactile feedback is there.
I did notice wheel slip and wheel lock doesn’t work correctly. Wheel slip just vibrates anytime I step on the gas or brake. Wheel lock just happens when I step on the brake so I just used it to give me an idea when I’m at 95% braking. I shut wheel slip off. I can be sideways in a corner and it just shuts off, gain traction and accelerate and the vibration comes back. Seems backwards. I substituted that with speed curve on corners only.
road vibration, road bumps, gear shifts, engine rpm, wheel lock and speed curve is all I have set up and it feels pretty good and lively with what the car is doing. Thankfully I don’t have anything turned up too much, I managed to get the pucks just on the other side of the foam. Creatively mounting them within the seat. I had to peel back the upholstery. Was just one long plastic clip at the back.
- 440
- Bulgaria
- morfei1
yeap it's because the telemetry is still up and there. I don't think it's a bug, it's the way it is.
Something similar goes for ACC on PS5 (I haven't checked so far for PC) If you are in a lobby sitting in the pit, and you switch to another car to watch it, you can feel the True Force FFB effect, engine, gear shifts and so on, but no main FFB.
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- 1,303
- Canada
- the-1st-hawkeyez
I don’t know how my setup compares to others it’s just those pucks and nobsound amps but I’ve got six of them, two seat, two lower back, one mid back and one under pedals. The G Pro wheel does a lot too but sometimes if I don’t boot up my computer first and then turn the amps on, they don’t always pickup and I notice it right away. And you miss it. I’ve actually turned mine down even more. I think I just like the subtly of them. Like the wheel it doesn’t shake the crap out of your hands or anything but it gives enough just to know and feel what’s going on.
But who knows maybe down the road I’ll be getting larger ones or more powerful ones. Kinda don’t think so though. I think before I did that I’d start looking into actuators for acceleration and braking first just tilt forward or back. Maybe fans. maybe.
- 1,303
- Canada
- the-1st-hawkeyez
It’ll take me awhile to get through 12 pages. But I’ll read when I can.
I’ll have to play around with it a bit more but it all seems fairly personalized and unless I have the exact same seat and rig build isn’t it all going to feel different anyways? Like listening to music through different speakers and amps? Generally the same but different.
The one thing I was disappointed with is wheel lock and wheel slip. They don’t work properly. Wheel lock just activates anytime you hit the brake, found a work around and just use it to let me know how hard I’m braking. aka how far down my pedal is. It might be set at 95. I brake hard, rumble, ease up so it just goes away, I think I’ve been braking a little better.
Wheel slip works opposite of what it should, gas or brake, brrrrrr. Lose traction on all four tires, no effect. Wtf? Haha. I just shut it off. It’s not correct. Speed curving was my work around so I could feel something in my lower back through corners. Makeshift way about doing it, have to rely on the wheel for actually loss of traction.
As for frequencies I just made sure none were at the exact same frequency. I started with gear shift (center mid back) and found the frequency (37 I believe) while driving that felt the most realistic. I forget the length, I shortened it some.
Shut that effect off and moved onto the next effect, adjusted where it felt right to me, making sure I didn’t overlap frequencies then turned previous effect back on and ran some laps with both effects on and tweaked. I moved through each effect like that, turning certain ones on and off until I felt like each had its own distinct feel and level. Finally turning them all on and doing some final tweaking.
Had them a little strong at first as I found the were distracting me more from the wheel feedback I was getting. I feel the balance is better now and I am glad I finally have it all working.
Biggest disappointment was improper wheel lock and wheel slip feedback coming from either GT7 or SimHub. What I was hoping for was maybe having some gear shift thumps, road bumps and then wheel lock and wheel slip to let me know when I’ve pushed too far. That’s all I had on at first but it was completely backwards of how I feel it should be. So now it just feels like I’m in a car, you do get a sense of speed though through the speed curving effect and I noticed road vibration is kind of the work around for wheel slip.
Those are the effects I am using. As I said before I went the opposite direction of informative to make it feel like I’m sitting in the car driving as wheel slip and wheel lock don’t work properly imo. Engine vibration I may just shut off entirely Yet.
Sorry for the long post, it’s tough to sum it all up in one. Impressions, workarounds etc.
I’ll have to play around with it a bit more but it all seems fairly personalized and unless I have the exact same seat and rig build isn’t it all going to feel different anyways? Like listening to music through different speakers and amps? Generally the same but different.
The one thing I was disappointed with is wheel lock and wheel slip. They don’t work properly. Wheel lock just activates anytime you hit the brake, found a work around and just use it to let me know how hard I’m braking. aka how far down my pedal is. It might be set at 95. I brake hard, rumble, ease up so it just goes away, I think I’ve been braking a little better.
Wheel slip works opposite of what it should, gas or brake, brrrrrr. Lose traction on all four tires, no effect. Wtf? Haha. I just shut it off. It’s not correct. Speed curving was my work around so I could feel something in my lower back through corners. Makeshift way about doing it, have to rely on the wheel for actually loss of traction.
As for frequencies I just made sure none were at the exact same frequency. I started with gear shift (center mid back) and found the frequency (37 I believe) while driving that felt the most realistic. I forget the length, I shortened it some.
Shut that effect off and moved onto the next effect, adjusted where it felt right to me, making sure I didn’t overlap frequencies then turned previous effect back on and ran some laps with both effects on and tweaked. I moved through each effect like that, turning certain ones on and off until I felt like each had its own distinct feel and level. Finally turning them all on and doing some final tweaking.
Had them a little strong at first as I found the were distracting me more from the wheel feedback I was getting. I feel the balance is better now and I am glad I finally have it all working.
Biggest disappointment was improper wheel lock and wheel slip feedback coming from either GT7 or SimHub. What I was hoping for was maybe having some gear shift thumps, road bumps and then wheel lock and wheel slip to let me know when I’ve pushed too far. That’s all I had on at first but it was completely backwards of how I feel it should be. So now it just feels like I’m in a car, you do get a sense of speed though through the speed curving effect and I noticed road vibration is kind of the work around for wheel slip.
Those are the effects I am using. As I said before I went the opposite direction of informative to make it feel like I’m sitting in the car driving as wheel slip and wheel lock don’t work properly imo. Engine vibration I may just shut off entirely Yet.
Sorry for the long post, it’s tough to sum it all up in one. Impressions, workarounds etc.
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Mr Latte
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- 5,044
- N Ireland
GT7 is more limited than for example PC version of ACC Even i-racing can be limited regards the telemetry usable for lock/slip. If you share your own effects or show screenshots of settings used then that may help determine what your experiencing.
It's also not just about larger units having more wattages. It's how certain models can better extend both lower/higher frequencies and perform better in detailing of the frequencies being generated. Dont just assume that only the Hz you input as effects are all that gets generated either.
I'm sure with your own feedback and trying or comparing what you have in effects we can help improve things for users.
It's also not just about larger units having more wattages. It's how certain models can better extend both lower/higher frequencies and perform better in detailing of the frequencies being generated. Dont just assume that only the Hz you input as effects are all that gets generated either.
I'm sure with your own feedback and trying or comparing what you have in effects we can help improve things for users.
- 1,303
- Canada
- the-1st-hawkeyez
Yeah I’m sure they vibrate a wider frequency. But like an EQ there’s a peak. How far it goes out each way I’m not sure. I’ve only heard frequencies never felt them thru bass transducers.
I will try to get screenshots when I am satisfied to gain any other tips. For the most part it’s stock settings with freq adjusted, levels and some curves slightly tweaked.
actually I do have one a question if anybody knows. Do lower frequencies heat these things up more than higher frequencies?
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Mr Latte
Premium
- 5,044
- N Ireland
Your enjoying what tacile can bring in added immersion, and yes its cool addition. BUT with the hardware you are using and yes many others also own. Do keep perspective that its one of the most basic and budget hardware options. Much greater is possible in detail/energy and scenarios in which we then can apply better usage of multiple effects operating at once and seeking to build improved (multi-layer) effects for enhanced immersion or richness in their felt character with more capable hardware and/or installations applying multi-body regions and isolation decoupling the seat/pedal sections. These are all proven factors related to experiencing much better tactile. Its all down to the user what level or quality of tactile they then seek to explore or enjoy.
The input frequencies are CENTER VALUES this does not mean when you input 45Hz for an effect only 45Hz is generated. Not all effects are pure tones and combinations of effects using similar (surrounding frequencies) of the CENTER VALUES with eg: 5-10Hz varation will be using in most cases overlapping frequencies. When you do this with multiple effect layers or individual effects operating at the same time, then the strength/amplitude of these overlapping frequency increases. What you begin to get is less varation in the felt feel of various frequencies or effects and more emphasis or (mush) of mostly the peak output frequencies (the used transducer) itself generates. People refer to this as less is more as too much for the unit to handle feels worse.
Units are more likely to overheat when you are usjng multiple layers of active effects at same times and with frequency overlapping from various active effects. This combined with high volumes and/or excessive wattages. More effects active at once per channel, basically will mean more strain on your units operation. The temptation is to keep using the same 30-60Hz range as these frequencies particularly 40-50Hz will be within the peak output of various/most budget units. Id expect most reading this may be the case with their own effecfs and that they may rely on 30-80Hz most, based on what I have seen in the past evaulating peoples effects on various budget transducers.
Its simply a restriction and too limited which is why many people seek better tactile once they get a taste of what it can bring.
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- 1,303
- Canada
- the-1st-hawkeyez
Got and inch of rubber under each foot of the seat, not vibration goes to the pedals from the seat. Got foam under the pedal board, very very little vibration goes to the seat. Surprisingly the G Pro can vibrations to the feet and a little bit to the seat. I think it’s all decoupled fairly well, the rig is suspended and each corner is on an iso 5/8 isolation anti vibration pad.
Thanks for the tip on the center frequency. I may widen them out some. I am contemplating removing engine vibration it doesn’t work as I thought it would either. I do have five pucks for the seat and I can feel the different effects being applied. But I may just to widen the effect frequencies if I can. Some effects just feel right at certain frequencies.
I won’t be changing these out. I just realized yesterday I was half volume on the amps and half volume on the global output! I’ve been running at about 25%. I ran a bunch of laps at 100% SimHub level and 75% on the three amps. As soon as I finished I felt under the pedal board and the puck was cold to the touch, the ones under my seat felt cold too, the center where the Dayton aluminum logo is maybe felt a little warm? I can’t easily access the ones on my back. I think I’m going to go 100% in SimHub, 60% on the amps. And keep tweaking from there.
I maybe have low expectations, but I also don’t want to chase perfection for a video game either. I’m setup for my hobby. I’ve since added a hook off the side table for my headphones and a double cup holder. I accidentally knocked a drink off the table when I pulled my hand back from shutting off the touch lamp. Haha. Surprisingly I prefer to run my headphones over the full surround, they just sound cleaner and more surround. But once in awhile I crank the stereo and run loud!
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Mr Latte
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- 5,044
- N Ireland
With the isolation and application of multi-channels you are using, it already helps you achieve a decent arrangment of effects. Those will help minimise the number of effects you apply to any single channel too if you separate specific effects (or those operational at the same times) to different units. Rpm and Speed effects as they are both quite constant are best on their own dedicated channels or not interfering with other positional/stereo effects.
In comparison someone using 4 units on corners with no isolation has to then apply more effects to each unit, causing the overlapping frequencies to happen more and they wont get from them as much detailing or energy with vibrations generated as without decoupling/isolation can freely spread over the whole rig frame and not directly targetted to the users body regions.
In comparison someone using 4 units on corners with no isolation has to then apply more effects to each unit, causing the overlapping frequencies to happen more and they wont get from them as much detailing or energy with vibrations generated as without decoupling/isolation can freely spread over the whole rig frame and not directly targetted to the users body regions.
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Mr Latte
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- 5,044
- N Ireland
Recently discussed issue:
Operational telemetry/tactile in menus or non race situtaions.
Use some form of method to MUTE the Simhub soundcard easily
Possible options:
1. 7.1 soundcard in reach with mute button
2. Additional hardware in distrubution box/splitter/mixer with channel, select or mute functionality
3. Tablet as secondary screen or other button box to control Simhub
4. Voice activated smart plug-multigang to power on/off amps (not ideal)
StarTech 7.1 USB is in my experience the BEST performing budget soundcard to buy, which includes audio MUTE feature as well.
Operational telemetry/tactile in menus or non race situtaions.
Use some form of method to MUTE the Simhub soundcard easily
Possible options:
1. 7.1 soundcard in reach with mute button
2. Additional hardware in distrubution box/splitter/mixer with channel, select or mute functionality
3. Tablet as secondary screen or other button box to control Simhub
4. Voice activated smart plug-multigang to power on/off amps (not ideal)
StarTech 7.1 USB is in my experience the BEST performing budget soundcard to buy, which includes audio MUTE feature as well.
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- 1,303
- Canada
- the-1st-hawkeyez
Mr Latte
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- 5,044
- N Ireland
Yeah but buying a cable switcher for A/B switching for multiple channels or purchasing several stereo ones to achieve mute for multiple channels would cost more than a budget tablet option?
The easiest/cheapest option I would think, is the recommended soundcard. Also with that it is easier to have all effects controlled/mapped in Simhub by 1x 7.1 card via a single screen than multiple stereo cards needing configured via each 2 channel amp.
Probably easier to manage/tidier and potentially cheaper to buy 2x Douk Audio M4 amps and 7.1 soundcard for 8 channels than multiple 2 channel Douk amps. Id also very much expect to see improved outout in dB of frequencies from the Startech USB sohndcard than audio card within those small amps.
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- 1,303
- Canada
- the-1st-hawkeyez
4pin rocker switches on Amazon 8pcs for $16. I’ll wait and see if they update SimHub to mute for us if it’s even possible. Rocker switches would look cool though haha. That’s still 6 switches just to mute it. It was a bit disappointing finding out it keeps going and that wheel lock and wheel slip aren’t correct but whatever still pretty awesome we can do this.
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Mr Latte
Premium
- 5,044
- N Ireland
Mmmmm, well that is cheap, and if the cheapest possible solution is important, suppose yeah it's possible that way.
I still think most would prefer to hit one mute button on a soundcard than 4/6/8 or more switches back n forth to disable/enable each channel. Each person to their own thing but yes it's possible to get around the issue some of you reported as being annoying.
Wheelslip Discussion
GT7 appears to rely more on G force-based telemetry than offering per-wheel slip activity.
Simhub can only support what the title's own telemetry output offers.
It's possible on PC titles to have independent slip but really L/R slip isn't that beneficial, however front/rear independent felt slip is beneficial for understeer/oversteer of the car's behavior and can be applied to output only to pedals/seat to represent the front/rear sensations. This can also be much more immersive than just having something like rumble motors on pedals.
In past experimentations, using wheel-slip, my own preferred approach in effects operation for (ACC) on PC was to have independent front/rear application. So in instances of a RWD car doing a burnout, or donuts, the rear wheels would have by far the most activity. Some others made custom effects, with Simhub appearing to apply almost identical output to all wheels. They also used a rather limited or quite static range in frequency output for low-high slip operations. Thus reducing the variation in feeling that can be generated for the user to better determine what is a small-large amount of slip which can be one of the drawbacks/limitations of budget hardware and trying to be creative with improved tactile sensations.
Some people's effects didn't feel right to me and one of the benefits of making improved effects like "wheelslip" is that the frequency range in relation to felt slip can be much better reflected with included lowest bass sensations becoming active only with higher slip scenarios or generated values. It's also important to use frequencies that match in relation to the sensitivity being used/enabled for the determined amount of slip.
Additionally, I would say that often people may have slip sensitivity too high that even small amounts of slip generate a response. (Noticeable in video below). It's more usable as a driving aid if you have activity only with higher levels of slip to help indicate oversteer/understeer scenarios.
I showed this comparison a while back that highlights these points and you will see one is more accurate in front/rear slip as well as offering much less static output with an increased range of frequencies....
*Notice the spin @30 seconds and burnouts in how they differ with their generated frequencies and activity!
** Front wheels to left / rear wheels to right
*** Green is my own effects output
Its possible that some titles with highly populated "online competitive communities" will not want certain telemetry to be available that can be used as unofficial hack/cheating driving aids.
With GT7, I've offered some effects and tried to get good results with them. It's upto others to look at offering feedback of issues with these or seeking to help in testing to improve them. One option is to build certain effects to operate in activity to the G PRO wheel, to better match its operation.
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- 1,746
- Aurora, CO
- Skills_19657
Mr Latte
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- 5,044
- N Ireland
I only briefly spent some time using a microphone to validate what frequency ranges the G Pro DD wheel was generating with its Tru Force effects. Some of its feedback is quite good but it's a general hit/miss on Logitechs part that we do not have the ability to alter the generated output for individual effects. If you want stronger sensations for suspension or slip but seek to reduce engine sensations, it's not possible in most titles. Certain titles do enable users to adjust individual effects but man it's so annoying that tiles like GT7 has weak/poor curb feedback and increasing the output then means effects like engine are overbearing and can cause tingling/numbness in fingers or hands.
Anyways, using the mic and monitoring the output does lets us determine when it's active, so from that it's not hard for us to find/use settings in Simhub to have effects operate with a similar response. At least with Simhub, we can control the effects much better and apply this to accommodate or extend what the wheel offers.
Of course if time was spent looking more into this it would be possible to have Simhub effects made to replicate in some way TRU Force and for people to then add transducers to a wheel. This may be hit/miss as with the G PRO the vibration is within the shaft and goes direct to the wheel, not the same thing as trying to have vibrations from outside the wheel base go through the wheels casing and into the wheel rim.
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- 1,303
- Canada
- the-1st-hawkeyez
yeah 6 switches isn’t ideal thats for sure. It’s not too bad, just finished racing for 3 hours and wasn’t too bothered by it waiting for the races to end.
I’ll look into the wheel slip thing, might have to play with the curve, whether it’s turned up or not I was just getting rumbling any time I touched the gas or brake. Also I’ve noticed certain cars have strong wheel lock effects and some are non existent. Makes it hard to find the perfect settings. But just like tire grip and wheel strength, makes sense a 69 camaro with comfort medium has less force to turn wheel then one with racing softs on.
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- 2
- Salem, OR
- Croco_3208
Stumbled into this thread while trying to get my new Buttkicker set up and I'm hoping someone can tell me what I'm doing wrong.
I have my Buttkicker gamer plus attached to my rig and connected to the BK amp that it came with. The amp is connected to my PC and I can see it/select it inside SimHub. The SimHub packages Setup rule and SimHub Setup Rule are listed in the "Inbound Rules" of my firewall advanced security window and I added the correct port forwarding in my router as well (after putting both my pc and ps5 on static IP's).
I know the ps5 is giving off the telemetry data because I can see it on the Sim Dashboard app that I installed on my phone but it doesn't seem like my PC is receiving the data. Here's a pic of the port forwarding I did on my router and the settings I have inside SimHub.
Both the ps5 and the pc are on the same wifi network, same subnet mask, same default gateway... etc. I usually have a VPN running on my pc and I've tried with it both on and off with no difference.
I have no idea what to do or where to go from here. I'm sure there's something simple or obvious that I'm not doing or haven't done yet but hell if I know what that is. Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks!
I have my Buttkicker gamer plus attached to my rig and connected to the BK amp that it came with. The amp is connected to my PC and I can see it/select it inside SimHub. The SimHub packages Setup rule and SimHub Setup Rule are listed in the "Inbound Rules" of my firewall advanced security window and I added the correct port forwarding in my router as well (after putting both my pc and ps5 on static IP's).
I know the ps5 is giving off the telemetry data because I can see it on the Sim Dashboard app that I installed on my phone but it doesn't seem like my PC is receiving the data. Here's a pic of the port forwarding I did on my router and the settings I have inside SimHub.
Both the ps5 and the pc are on the same wifi network, same subnet mask, same default gateway... etc. I usually have a VPN running on my pc and I've tried with it both on and off with no difference.
I have no idea what to do or where to go from here. I'm sure there's something simple or obvious that I'm not doing or haven't done yet but hell if I know what that is. Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks!
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