GT7 and SimHub Tactile discussion

[Mr Latte]

Back again,

To isolate the seat, generally if using additional plates, have these that they are in direct contact with the seat mounts.
The isolation is best suited (underneath) the structure these plates would be attached to. This then decouples the seat from the rig.
Creating a smaller mass for the vibrations to flow through.

Less mass, requires less volume offering a more efficent solution. Requiring the tactile to be driven less hard which can help the tactile feel more composed and better controlled.

The largest LFE is on another level in what it can bring in immersion and felt energy with low frequencies.
Do consider selling these Mini models and amps to have 1 large BK LFE for the seat. This combined with the exciters and well configured effects will blow you away in comparison to what you have experienced so far. Often you will see YTers going on about how strong their tactile is, trust me when I say for certain sensations, that add a game-changer element to the felt experience. We need powerful output capability with the infrasound based frequencies.

As part of my own research, will you send me via DM a link to your old profile you used?
This lets determine what level the effects you have used fits in with the experiences you felt unimpressed with.


EXCITER PLACEMENT
The approach for the seat can be adjusted. Some seats offer the ability to attach a couple of units to the sides adjacent the users thighs. The goal I have for the back of the seat is to have 3x stereo body zones and then to offer the option of having the dual mono units. This allows us to place various effects to key body regions.


I seek for 3 things for the seat
1) wider usable dynamic range available to use in effects creation and development
2) ability to position effects to top / middle / bottom regions of the torso
3) better implement how certain key effects compliment each other

Different seats based on the curvature or other hardware (belt tensioners) may need to vary in the exact positions.
Again the key goal is feeling distinct elements placed to different targetted body zones. For me the shoulders, mid/sides and less effective but still usable is the lower back.

Some prefer to place effects with lower bass, lower to the seat but for me, in my own testing. I see a connection between certain frequencies and the volume used. A more sensaitve area like the top pair at the shoulders can feel different with the same volume using the same effect and frequency, if output on the lowest pair. User preferences will also be a factor.

It is likely from user feedback and in finalising some of the effects, we may see preffered combos in how different effects are mapped to different channels. However I like how this appraoch also lets users determine their own. Another aspect with this approach is that a single effect may have 3x layer elements, we do not need to have these elements be static, to whatever of the 3 pairs are decided. I can build an effect that over its operational range, it can transition its layers to different channels.

This again brings potential in felt sensations not typical with other approaches.
An example of this would be how I may apply road textures and speed, one effect can start in P2 and move to P1 as the cars speed increases. While the other effect can do the opposite, starting in P1 and moving to P2. One is focused on placing more low bass energy at low speed as the other increases its low bass energy at high speeds.

Dont think, you will be disappointed, I have worked too long with tactile to know what a good level of immerson and quality of effects is. Buy a single unit, install it to the top mono position. If you want to be cautious, let me impress you with a single effect I have for inertia sensation. Its felt energy with the combined frequencies/layers it uses will mildly chatter your teeth as the car picks up momentum.

 

[g0al3d]

I ordered this under seat bracket (but it's backordered) with the intention of going with a larger transducer under the seat that i could potentially isolate better as well. I think I am wrapping my head around this a little better and thanks for sharing this information is it much appreciated. If I am grasping this correctly the idea is to run 6 exciters as stereo pairs on the seat via this amp and this soundcard
Could I then run the LFE under the seat using say the motherboard built in sound card and powered via this or something similar.

And then run an additional 2 mono exciters on the back of the seat using something like this? in order to keep the soundcard chaos to a minimum?

 

[Mr Latte]

I ordered this under seat bracket (but it's backordered) with the intention of going with a larger transducer under the seat that i could potentially isolate better as well. I think I am wrapping my head around this a little better and thanks for sharing this information is it much appreciated. If I am grasping this correctly the idea is to run 6 exciters as stereo pairs on the seat via this amp and this soundcard
Could I then run the LFE under the seat using say the motherboard built in sound card and powered via this or something similar.

And then run an additional 2 mono exciters on the back of the seat using something like this? in order to keep the soundcard chaos to a minimum?

Simhub supports multiple sound devices. The card recommended has no issues if you use for example, 2 of them. Each card supports 8x channels per card.

Onboard audio is often not that great, but follow the guidelines and it makes things easier.

 

[q445187]

IHere's what I did specifically in SimHub:

• Engine Effects: Gear Shift (F) 78% @ 25Hz, RPM (I/F) set very low (4%) and a medium Hz (38/50), Engine Vibration 6% (cannot tune Hz on this) and Missed Gear (F) 94% at 34/50Hz.
• Suspension Effects: Road Vibration (F/I) 13% @ 50Hz w/ White Noise (+/-10Hz), Road Impacts (I/F) 20% @25Hz w/ White Noise (+/-5Hz) and Road Texture (F) 4% @ 48 Hz w/ White Noise (+/- 10Hz)
• Wheel Effects: Wheels Lock (I) 81% @ 16HZ, Wheels Slip (I) 23% @ 30HZ w/ White Noise (+/- 10Hz) [SH says GT7 does not provide accurate Wheel Slip information], Traction Loss (I) 97% @ 18Hz and TC Active (I) 100% @44Hz.

Your setup is very similar to mine. I will be trying your settings today. One (noob) question, I just started all this 2 days ago, in the above, what is the (F), (F/I)?

What is you BK Volume?

 

[q445187]

Such drama but I was not surprised....

The discussion has useful purpose because it highlights a common issue.

Several of your effects are not much different to default, but the impression I get, is that you are not really here seeking help, you prefer to turn help away, or ignore advice and do what you want to do anyways.

It was said, that what you could achieve in tactile would be limited.
This was also confirmed with the settings you shared and with the effects you use.

Something I did, was to take everyone of your settings to create a profile, then I also monitored Simhub via spectrum analysis to determine what your settings and effects were actually generating.

I also just connected one of my TT25 to set it on my lap as a reference to determine its output and operation.


Observation:
The "Speed Curving" feels not too bad but so many of the effects you have, use such similar frequencies. Any that are linked to the same channels are likely getting saturated and what happens is the amplitude for those repeating/overlapping frequencies just increases.

You do not really have unique felt characteristics for different effects, or scenarios within effects, just feels a bit dull and static.
This is one of the limitations with standard effects but made worse as so many of yours are condensed into similar frequencies. So even if you may not have effects that are operational mostly in similar instances, its the same Hz going into your body, just from a different unit, probably only a few inches apart.

It's like listening to music on headphones that only produce 10% of the frequency range. That is one of the common issues with alot of other peoples setups as well, and quite typical with frequency restricted hardware. You are not alone in this regard or being indvidually targetted. Why it is being highlighted is because so much better is possible with the affordable option I have shared. Clearly you will not buy it, and turned a free one down, but some are already beginning to give it a try.

I don't get the impression you have a full grasp yet on some of the Simhub settings, but then you probably will not even admit to that neither? Nor would you actually instead, ask how you could improve things but rather continue to have tit for tat exchanges.

Regardless, I thought I would share more....

One of the benefits in using the spectrum analysis as a learning tool, is the possibility to apply the same or different effects to specific channels and then compare with the visual representations what each is doing based on the settings applied in Simhub and during the effects operation.

An example of this would be to apply "Parametric Engine" comparing what happens when we alter the "Pitch/Load/Cutoff" settings and so that we get it operating within the window more suited to the hardware being used. I also see how/why you applied an RPM layer but think we can do something with this as well.

I will add later, some images to help improve your profiles performance for these two effects.

Anyone who would argue with you at this point (I began reading your stuff a couple days ago starting back from Feb 2023) is small minded and insecure. THIS one post alone, with no other input proves that YOU know what you are doing and are worthy of respect and thanks for what you do. Thank you.

 

[Mr Latte]

Anyone who would argue with you at this point (I began reading your stuff a couple days ago starting back from Feb 2023) is small minded and insecure. THIS one post alone, with no other input proves that YOU know what you are doing and are worthy of respect and thanks for what you do. Thank you.

I am not always right, or present things in a manner that will please everyone. Yet I do have opinons formed from experiences and a lot of testing as well as trial and error regarding tactile.

We learn from testing and experimenting, comparing either different methods with using effects and/or also in using different hardware. Applying tools like spectrum analysis, can help determine exactly what Simhub is generating with whatever effects are being used. Then it is possible to compare channel Vs channel how an effect is operating with different settings etc.

These are just steps towards improving things. Many people are not using tactile in perhaps the best ways, it really is one of the biggest minefields with sim racing.

Yet as this engagement showed with our friend. Some people will refuse to accept that perhaps the level of what they are experiencing is not that great after all. It's restricted in the frequencies it offers, or the number of effects the user can apply, or that their isnt much difference in enjoyment from some of the effects.

Lots of people, even some of the influencers with videos. They may have little experience with tactile in general beyond what their own installation is or has. Or that they have little experience also with Simhub or in ways to apply frequencies better to create good effects. We seem to have a lot of people out their with a level of tactile, they have no clue as a basis to how good or bad it is in relation to what may be a good setup and configuration to one that is not.

TOO MANY OPTIONS
How do we determine what is the best approach, the best hardware to use for a budget but scalable tactile solution.
Well, we compare the options and that takes time, experience and trying to gather what people are using in effects or settings with the hardware they are using.....


I believe I have found one of the best hardware options in 2024 to consider as already mentioned.
How do we go about building effects to suit that hardware, we can consider different approaches (mine is not the only way) but we use methods to understand what settings in Simhub are doing and how we apply these for the specific roles we may use an effect layer for. I very strongly believe it makes more sense to build effects to the strengths and operating characteristics with a selected hardware solutiion, installed and used in a way that goes beyond the traditional limitations normal approaches use. How do we do that?

From using the spectrum analysis to aid effects creation. We can increase our understanding of how things like the "response curve" are altering the frequencies being generated for a specific effect. I would expect that very few people actually really understand how/what this or some of the other controls are doing in altering the output generated.

MOTION & TACTILE - DIFFERENCES IN EACH SCENARIO
A brand of motion system uses specific hardware, a belt tensioner uses specific hardware.
Their are many different brands in these, but note they do not all try to rely on a single set of configured settings from Simhub do they. Some have their own software but, my point is each is developed and tuned with the software or effects and profiles they use with settings contained to work on suiting that hardware.

THE REPEATED SCENARIO & ISSUES
Yet with tactile, the minefield I refer to is a scenario in that we often find people with different hardware and installations will try or assume they can just load a profile that works for everyone. How many times will we see someone new to tactile say, they want a profile for X Y Z sim to use with X Y Z hardware. Oh and they are using with X Y Z amps/soundcard with the units installed in methods ranging from transducers in corners units on/under seats/pedals and from popular or typical sim rig seats to less than ideal seats (for tactile) from a scrap yard.

How do people think it is so simple to then just load a profile that will work great for their own setup and configuration?

STILL A GOAL
I will, just plod along at my own leisure to continue working on a concept to offer as a solution that can one day, perhaps be a scenario where people go out and buy a selection of tried/tested hardware. That then has a wide but growing range of effects and profiles. All importantly suited for that hardware, made tested and used by others with the same hardware. This way to me is the only way to achieve from Simhub and tactile an approch, we can understand and better control what it produces in felt sensations with effects. When many hours are put into effects creation to produce key sensations. Knowing users will experience these more accurately from the pre-made profiles/settings. Offering an effects quality to a high-level that are experienecd as is intended and meant to feel like.

 

[q445187]

The tools you speak of most people don't have or even know what they are/do. My knowledge is very limited at best, but I understand the things you are talking about at an overview level. I have used some of them decades ago in a calibration of F16 systems level. I didn't completely understand what each thing did, but I had to make them meet parameters so I kinda "get it". That was at least 30+ years ago. The first post of your I found was road vibration from 2023, I knew immediately when I saw you had 4 levels to create "road vibration" that I needed to get on this train. Sadly you have caused me to want to spend more money!

 

[Mr Latte]

The tools you speak of most people don't have or even know what they are/do. My knowledge is very limited at best, but I understand the things you are talking about at an overview level. I have used some of them decades ago in a calibration of F16 systems level. I didn't completely understand what each thing did, but I had to make them meet parameters so I kinda "get it". That was at least 30+ years ago. The first post of your I found was road vibration from 2023, I knew immediately when I saw you had 4 levels to create "road vibration" that I needed to get on this train. Sadly you have caused me to want to spend more money!

I dont think you can buy better price/performance units to these BDS models I have been recommending.
As a concept it still needs work done with effects creation and testing with others before I would be in a position to offer a full thread on it as a solution with guide. Many hours are put into effects options I work on, but its not just about creating felt sensations for a few effects. Its how we build the effects to also better compliment each other, that is more of a challenge and giving users the ability to decide themselves which channels they position specific effects. For that to work, the effects need to be compatible with each other. This is one reason why I am applying more musicality with partial octaves in the frequencies the effects use.

The early effects have shown this can work with the multilayers approach I use.
So work continues, towards having effects solutions that can be enjoyed from a single unit, to multiple units in seat and pedals.
I dont know of other approaches with effects for Simhub that do it quite in this way, but it needs the relevant tactile hardware to work.

The idea is, the user can grow the setup when suits them but also get to experience some decent effects from the most affordable setup using only 1 or 2 units.

Their are indviduals that reach out and do help over DM with testing and those that help me with feedback/tests then I usually will give them newer effects to further compare to others if they want to continue helping.

My own new build is already in the process of having started too
The new chassis design consists of parts from dual Trak Racer S160 rigs to achieve a build that is longer and wider than typical alu-profile rigs. I have plans to add to it motorised sections for seat/pedals and wheel deck. It will also use a high level of isolation to not only the primary rig frame but also to the seat and pedal sections.

This will be a very high end tactile build, but is a journey in its own right.
For perspective, it still uses this concept I am sharing with multiple BDS units. However it will also include other additional units as well for specfic highlights of powerful low bass for certain effects.

 

[Revengel]

Your setup is very similar to mine. I will be trying your settings today. One (noob) question, I just started all this 2 days ago, in the above, what is the (F), (F/I)?

I have it a F = Feel, I = Information. F/I = both feel and information. Sorry, I should have made that more clear.

What is you BK Volume?

80 / 24 is my setting on my amp.

Hope this helps!

 

[q445187]

Thank you.

I thought we were supposed to turn off the high and low cutoffs because simhub did that.

 

[g0al3d]

@Mr Latte have you come across any good 3d printed mounting solutions for the Dayton BDS exciters for pedals yet?

 

[Mr Latte]

@Mr Latte have you come across any good 3d printed mounting solutions for the Dayton BDS exciters for pedals yet?

Not seen any...
For attaching, I think many made for HPR would work okay. Although what I would of liked is to discuss with someone with printing experience a few design ideas.

 

[q445187]

BDS 4 on labor day sale on parts express, look at the top of their page for 13% off!

 

[q445187]

Helllooooo! Anyone here?

Decoupling,

if there are exciters on the seat, decouple the seat right?

If you have a good wheel (Fanatec DD+ 15nm) for example, should the wheelbase be decoupled?

If you have no exciters or transducers on the pedals (other than the lame motors on the Fanatec V3), they don't need to be decoupled?? You want vibrations through them from the BK Gamer Pro right?

 

[g0al3d]

Helllooooo! Anyone here?

Decoupling,

if there are exciters on the seat, decouple the seat right?

If you have a good wheel (Fanatec DD+ 15nm) for example, should the wheelbase be decoupled?

If you have no exciters or transducers on the pedals (other than the lame motors on the Fanatec V3), they don't need to be decoupled?? You want vibrations through them from the BK Gamer Pro right?

Decouple the seat if you can
I don't notice a ton of feedback going back into my rig via my DD+ (but YMMV)
little motors on Fanatec V3s do not need decoupling, however if you plan to mount exciters or shakers to pedals and pedal plate decoupling the pedals or the mounting plate seems to be ideal.

 

[Rickk69er]

Hi everyone,

This will work with a laptop via wifi?

Yes

 

[xDriver69x]

Am I just noticing this, but is the Position information not sent from GT7 for simhub to capture? Or if it does, what is the property it's stored in?

 

[MadMike008]

It is not.

 

[hawkeyez]

Am I just noticing this, but is the Position information not sent from GT7 for simhub to capture? Or if it does, what is the property it's stored in?

It’s missing a lot of info. I think the laps are wrong too. I pretty much only have it on to look at tire temps for fun.

 

[champetre]

Hello, I'd like to broaden the discussion to something other than the bass shakers: the vibration motors.

When I search the Internet, I see that in the end many have opted for shakers, which limits the information about vibrating engines.

I followed some YouTube tutorials and videos, and installed four Arduino-controlled vibration motors. It's the same hardware as 3Drap's "motor rumble," except I can't find any settings/advice on this hardware.

For information, I have 3 engines similar to these, with double counterweight (1 on the accelerator, 1 on the brake, one for the gear change which is under the gear lever but which I will move under the seat), and 1 larger vibration motor (double counterweight again) which is under the seat for the effects of the road.
I have a hard time finding a setting for the effects of the road.

The brake pedal fires when I lock my wheels while braking, so I'm satisfied.

For the accelerator, I just put the wheels on to feel when I lose the rear, but I feel like it vibrates almost all the time (except at high speeds). Anyway, I can't be satisfied with all this, and I'm looking for a charitable soul who would have ideas, or settings to advise me.

Thanks

 

[hawkeyez]

Hello, I'd like to broaden the discussion to something other than the bass shakers: the vibration motors.

When I search the Internet, I see that in the end many have opted for shakers, which limits the information about vibrating engines.

I followed some YouTube tutorials and videos, and installed four Arduino-controlled vibration motors. It's the same hardware as 3Drap's "motor rumble," except I can't find any settings/advice on this hardware.

For information, I have 3 engines similar to these, with double counterweight (1 on the accelerator, 1 on the brake, one for the gear change which is under the gear lever but which I will move under the seat), and 1 larger vibration motor (double counterweight again) which is under the seat for the effects of the road.
I have a hard time finding a setting for the effects of the road.

The brake pedal fires when I lock my wheels while braking, so I'm satisfied.

For the accelerator, I just put the wheels on to feel when I lose the rear, but I feel like it vibrates almost all the time (except at high speeds). Anyway, I can't be satisfied with all this, and I'm looking for a charitable soul who would have ideas, or settings to advise me.

Thanks

One of the settings I ran into the same thing, might have been called wheel slip. It was just going all the time. I think it’s a GT7 thing. You can use a threshold setting which I did for braking, it’s kind of a work around because I don’t think I’m actually getting vibration from the tires losing traction, I used it more to let me know how far down I’ve pushed the brake pedal.

No advice except I think I ran into the same damn thing haha

 

[champetre]

I just wanted to avoid these threshold settings for acceleration and brake. The braking lock depends on the weight of each car, whether the brake is curved, suddenly, etc.

And for the accelerator, following all this information + the power of each vehicle, it won't give great results I think. (Especially since I often lower the traction control, but I adapt it according to the power and behaviors of each vehicle). But thank you for trying to help me anyway 🙂

 

[hawkeyez]

I just wanted to avoid these threshold settings for acceleration and brake. The braking lock depends on the weight of each car, whether the brake is curved, suddenly, etc.

And for the accelerator, following all this information + the power of each vehicle, it won't give great results I think. (Especially since I often lower the traction control, but I adapt it according to the power and behaviors of each vehicle). But thank you for trying to help me anyway 🙂

I don’t run traction control that might have been my problem. You’re right, some cars I get no rumble when braking, other cars it’s stronger.

Sorry I can’t remember the name of the setting but it was exactly like you were describing, it seemed to be the opposite of what it said it did. I actually look for some invert box to check off in SimHub. Rumble all the time until high speed.

Good luck, I hope you figure it out.