- 1,591
- Under the Hood
GTP Cool Wall: 1992-1995 Autozam AZ-1
- Thread starter White & Nerdy
- 336 comments
- 17,741 views
- 4,209
- Wasilla, AK
- 40,925
It's certainly refreshing to not have to get into a multipost tangent explaining exactly what "sarcasm" or "irony" and the like are just because he wanted to try backtracking on something he said when people responded to it negatively.
Compared to that, the passive aggressive sniping (as seen in this thread) is easy to ignore, though still fun to point out.
- 1,591
- Under the Hood
Which is why I voted the S2000, Porsche-Abarth 356B as cool and E46 M3 as SZ right? Yea, pretty much the same V8 garbage....
Coming to a definite conclusion when your "facts" are incorrect?
Because I don't agree with the general consensus.
- 4,209
- Wasilla, AK
Annoyingly, that seems to be a common thing around here. I've long resented what I call, not completely seriously, the Enlightened Car Intelligentsia here. They have a very strange, difficult-to-nail-down definition of coolness that they claim "appreciates all cars" but which actually gives toy cars like this far more respect than they deserve while slagging off a few genuinely cool cars. And they can be quite myopic about it themselves. Listening to some of their posts, I get images of upturned noses and ivy league accents as they explain why cars that are cool on face value are actually uncool, as if they consider themselves to have some deeper knowledge on coolness that us stupid rednecks & teenagers just don't get.
McLaren
Premium
- 45,727
- Texas
Because it's nothing more than a regurgitated opinion of your spew that sounds even more ignorant because it has no actual backing to it. I'll give you some form of credit for actually trying to stick a reasoning behind your opinions (even if they're as dumb as "manliness" & "Ponies would drive it"), whilst this is jest of whatever Harry posts.
How you voted doesn't mean much with 3 sports cars when the argument that followed in the S2000 thread that you started because you assumed someone said the car was good in a straight line.
Reread the S2000 thread. Reread the Prius thread.
Your general attitude is the same through both; little engines & EVs aren't cool because no horsepower like a manly LS.
Neither does W&N, but his reasoning as far fetched & hilarious as it is, still retains an argument behind it.
- 3,030
- New Jersey
- durWINNING
- Noob Saibot 007
Well this got very interesting.
As for the AZ-1: I like it. Not completely sub-zero but it's cool. If I had to buy a kei car this would be one of them I'd consider.
As for the AZ-1: I like it. Not completely sub-zero but it's cool. If I had to buy a kei car this would be one of them I'd consider.
And things like minivans and Toyota Camrys have better power-to-weight ratios and go faster around a racetrack than cars that practically define the term. Is the original Porsche 911 no longer a sportscar because a Lexus RX hybrid would make it up a freeway onramp first? A V6 Camry is faster than some V12 Ferraris. That's a V with the number 12 after it.
What "sportscar" actually means is debated endlessly, but performance stats are a poor way to define it.
I thought only W&N was silly enough to believe GTPlanet is composed of one monolithic viewpoint.
Is it strange and difficult-to-nail-down because people disagree with you (even more so because they sometimes agree)? Or because you just can't manage to uncover that one consistent, simple, straightforward "flowchart" of reasoning like you expect everyone to have?
Sorry about that, our leadership is disorganized and we're having trouble drafting a flowchart everyone can agree upon, for some reason.
- 4,209
- Wasilla, AK
It's strange and difficult-to-narrow-down for this reason. The people I'm referring to claim to have differing, nuanced viewpoints, and in some cases they do, it's just that their opinions seem to conincide just enough to give cars like this numbers that would be more appropriate with a negative sign in front of them, while causing some (but not all) genuinely deserving cars to struggle.
Many of the same people who vote SZ for SU cars can also be found in a certain other thread on a certain other forum, with the same air.
- 9,884
- Carthage, TN
- race_emhard
Those people are more cheerful and open-minded than most others that
Downhill Dino
Premium
- 11,755
- Maryland
- DownhillDinosaur
Even though this is all about collective opinions and not a single one? The world doesn't revolve around you.
It sure is weird when people sometimes agree with you, and sometimes disagree with each other, but sometimes collectively disagree with you. I guess.
- 27,222
- United Kingdom
Theory:
In a way, everyone voting on the cool wall is doing so with impressive consistency.
It's just that there is one group voting on whether a car is actually cool or not, and another group is voting on whether they like a car based on its engine size. There's a little leeway here and there for some members, but that's to be expected.
When the votes of those two main groups coincide though - say, the Ferrari Daytona currently polled, all is well. When the votes of those two groups don't - this car, for example - we get the same conversations cropping up over and over. Ultimately though, as @niky has already pointed out, the cool wall itself evens out over time. If there's a true split, a car goes into the wastelands. And if the votes end up pointing one way or the other, a car goes to one or the other end of the wall.
It's funny how the prolonged disagreements only seem to happen when there's a car you (and the small band of others who think similarly) think is "out of place" on the wall though. I voted "cool" on that BMW concept a few polls back but didn't start a massive fuss even though the vast majority of people disagreed with me...
- 23,800
- Philippines
No, that would be either the Bricklin SV-1 or the Triumph TR-7...
Of course, if you want truly undignified...
While there are those guilty of judging cars uncool because of nonsensical factors (too big... too much power... etcetera)... how does that make them any different from you?
You've never driven an AZ-1. You've never seen a Kei car in person... be it an AZ-1, a Beat or even a Cappuchino (again, IMHO, the coolest Kei car, ever).
You're basing your evaluation of a car's coolness from a bunch of meaningless numbers on a computer screen and your preconceptions of the car.
That's all fine, really... Coolness is nothing if not completely subjective... but, speaking as someone who's been there, done that and who's driven some of the worst and some of the best cars you can buy today... lighten up. Go out there and drive something absolutely stupid. Cars don't have to fit into tiny little politico-ideological pigeonholes that you invent for them.
Throw the "Bro Code" out the window and go live a little. It would do you a world of good.
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@homeforsummer - you are entirely tasteless. Leather straps. Tattoos...
...might have actually liked the car if BMW hadn't done it better with the previous 328 concept...
- 27,222
- United Kingdom
- 3,461
- Melbourne
It's no Cappuccino but I still like it.
- 87,845
- Rule 12
- GTP_Famine
So when someone older than you with more experience in cars, motoring, motorsports, travel and indeed life says that there's more to being cool than just having a big ol' V8, you think they're narrow-minded posh people looking down their noses at you?
Really?
'Cos... damn. I mean... just... damn. Da-yum.
- 12,903
- Cambridge
- Moglet85
- Moglet
Have you ever stopped to think that the reason the opinions seem to coincide to give what you consider uncool cars a cool vote is that the majority disagree with you? Did you ever consider that your opinion might just be the minority on this website?
It happens. A lot. That's the beauty of living on planet Earth; there are billions of people and they're not all going to agree with you. It doesn't mean your opinion is wrong or that you're stupid or that you're a redneck.
What does make you come across badly is constantly clutching at straws like 'low power is always bad' to try and force everyone to agree with your viewpoint when they go against your vote. Just out of interest, and I'm not trying to annoy you or anything here, but are there any small engined cars you think are cool or do you disregard them all immediately?
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- 9,884
- Carthage, TN
- race_emhard
Not all of us are Ivy league, my southern accent that makes me sound like Charlie Daniels.
- 4,209
- Wasilla, AK
There's no real guarantee that this particular collective opinion represents the real world any more accurately than anything I've said. Honestly, I'm inclined to believe most people would have difficulty finding the AZ-1 cool. If coolness and interest are synonyms, then yes the AZ-1 is cool, but then that's not exactly the case. There are a lot of interesting things that aren't cool. I'd give one of these a look if I saw it, but I'd still rather have what I have now.
Just seems to me that it's a pretty safe bet that a cutesy little car like this, a Miata, a 500, and so forth will end up deep into "cool" territory, whereas something like a Camaro, a Charger, a Mustang, etc. will have its rating dinged by a litany of complaints from the people I'm talking about. It's too aggressive, too obvious, to midlife crisis, too hidden in garages by old rich white men. Though silent voters might keep them from taking the results too low in those cases. Yes, they may occasionally give surprise verdicts or disagree among each other, but the "GTP core group" does seem to agree with itself more often than not, in matters of both politics and cars.
The thing is, though, the reasons are different every time. When I said "difficult-to-pin-down", I meant it. I think I've finally cracked it now, though. To the people I'm referring to, coolness is determined and embodied by a. upper-class (but not upper-class enough to afford a supercar, because that's seriously uncool) urban sophisticates, b. the kind of woman who doesn't even bother to find out/remember what her own car is called or what its specs are, and whose eyes glaze over if you try to tell her, and c. the kind of car enthusiast that collects European historics instead of hot rods.
I never said engine size was the sole measure of a car's coolness. I just think too little engine size is bad, and more is, for the most part, good. It's just one contributing factor to whether the car is actually cool or not.
These people seem to be voting from what I'd call "fashion district car culture", within which appearing cultured is more important than appearing strong or fast.
The factors themselves. As I said, they seem to vary between cars, but the factors used seem to boil down to "how well would it fit in in an upscale shopping district?"
I would say it goes deeper than "coolness is subjective". Coolness is about image, which could, I guess, be percieved as subjective. I would say the coolest images a car could project are those of strength (on the part of the driver) and speed (on the part of the car). I'm not quite sure of the reasoning behind projecting other images - if you say "wealth" you're getting into snobbery, which is uncool, if you say "environmental friendliness" I'm sorry but no, if you say "taste" there's still a bit of snobbery there. If you say "power" (as in political or corporate), well then the cars may sometimes be cool but the people who drive them may well not be.
Sorry, but yes. I've thought before that perhaps some people on this forum might actually be a little jaded, or perhaps they opened their mind too wide and let a bunch of BS in. Either way, yes, I do think there is a lot of snobbery here - people being so cultured that they can no longer think "loud, fast, good-looking, cool". Instead they have to, yes, look down their noses at simpler ways of going fast, such as the muscle car.
Perhaps, even now 5 years after registering, there could be some culture shock at work. When I think of "car guys" I think mainly of people racing around in loud 300+ HP hot rods and muscle cars. To see alleged car enthusiasts put down muscle cars and fawn over stupid little barely-cars like this, I guess just seems completely unbelieveable, moreso the former than the latter.
A few, more than I'm willing to bother typing out right now actually. It's just that precious few of them are on sale right now.
Scaff
Moderator
- 29,812
- He/Him
- ScaffUK
I'm from the West Country is the UK, I sound like a farmer, oh and spent yesterday driving a series 3 Land Rover (which had a whole 86bhp when new and weighs around 2.5 ton). A few deacdes in the motor industry also ensure I swear like a trooper. Ivy League I'm not, but open minded I am.
Attachments
- 9,884
- Carthage, TN
- race_emhard
Careful, don't be too open minded, or BS might get in. 
Scaff
Moderator
- 29,812
- He/Him
- ScaffUK
So a 'car guy' (what about girls do they not count?) has to meet a limited definition set by you?
And why is it not possible to be a fan of both (or even more).
I have a deep love of many muscle cars (and a few I would consider cool), as I do some Kei cars (this one for example) and also stupidly slow, vintage Land Rovers (and so much more). Yet by your definition only one of these seems to be the 'right' kind of car.
I must confess that I struggle to understand why the concept that some muscle cars are cool and some are crap (just like some Kei cars are cool and some are crap, or more simply some cars are cool and some are crap) escapes you. Its after all not a difficult concept to grasp at all.
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- 87,845
- Rule 12
- GTP_Famine
Then that's part of a much larger persecution complex - anyone who disagrees with you is automatically placed in a higher social standing in your mind, which gives them power that they're using to keep you down...
You need genuine psychiatric help.
You're simplifying and getting it wrong.
I love muscle and pony cars. If I won the lottery, my third car purchase (after an RS200 Evo and a luxobarge - maybe an Aston Martin Rapide or an older Alpina B10 V8S) would be a '68 Camaro. I'm not a big fan of Mustangs - they're the easy answer and a bit overplayed - but I'll stop what I'm doing to take photos of a Pontiac GTO or a Plymouth Cuda. And indeed have. When was the last time you sat in an 850hp 9s V8 muscle car? I can tell you when it was for me...
That doesn't mean everyone else loves them. Most of the general public don't care about cars, so most muscle and pony cars would just be an ugly old box of noise.
Liking muscle cars doesn't mean I can't like Kei cars. I do like Kei cars, because they show what motivated engineers can do when not given a blank piece of paper to draft up yet another boring saloon car. When the motivated engineer says "You know what, I think I can make a sports car out of this", I'll buy that mad bastard a beer.
That doesn't mean everyone else loves them. Most of the general public don't care about cars, but kei cars are small and funky - the AZ-1 and Honda Beat particularly - and they'd like them without even caring for a second what they actually are.
It's possible to like both things. In fact most car enthusiasts do - but it doesn't mean that both things are cool. What's cool is what most people like - and they like brown right now. Brown is cool. I 🤬 hate brown cars.
tl;dr
Kei cars are cool. I like kei cars.
Muscle cars are not cool. I like muscle cars.
Brown cars are cool. I hate brown cars.
If you think people not automatically voting 60s V8s as "cool" means they're putting them down, that's another facet of a persecution complex - those who don't agree with you are automatically against you.
- 27,222
- United Kingdom
To your credit, that's correct. Though others here do.
Indeed. But there's no real solid reasoning behind that, other than you being worried about some kind of femininization of car culture. When really, small-engined cars have been in existence as long as large-engined ones. And a great number of them are cool, whether you like it or not.
I've mentioned this in these threads before, but it's nothing to do with fashion.
Style, on the other hand, does play a part. You seem to think that the pursuit of style is somehow a bad thing, but I suspect that's just because you're unfamiliar with it, or because those who happen to have a sense of style, taste, and no desire to be "manly" in some outdated traditional sense happen to be quite popular - style opens the door to a great lifestyle, good jobs, attractive partners etc. Since, to the best of my knowledge, you have none of those things, I'd put it down to jealousy more than anything else.
Jaded? Nope, not me - my life is pretty fantastic at the moment. You often complain about yours though - who is more likely to have the jaded viewpoint here?
- 44,185
- Blackburn
- Furinkazen_54
You miss every point in the book.
You don't like a 63hp Kei car? Good for you, thats your opinion. However to start the snooty nosed elitism about "alleged car enthusiasts", you are doing what you accuse pretty much everyone else of doing.
A car doesn't have to have a big block V8 to be cool. It doesn't have to be a 17ft long Charger or some SUV with more torque than a K car.
I'm an enthusiast, I appreciate cars of all kinds. I don't mind a K car, some american muscle, and italian exotic, or a german super saloon. However you are just of the mindset that only one type of car is cool, and you are the only person right and everyone is wrong.
@White & Nerdy in that case, I'd love to hear your opinion on a Peugeot 205, Lancia Delta, or a Renault Clio Williams.
