GTP Cool Wall: 2004-2009 Honda S2000

[Harry6784]

According to my research, the 2002 Corvette made 350 bhp, and the Camaro SS made 325 bhp. The blackwing you refer to doesn't seem to exist on wikipedia, and from what I can tell is an aftermarket addition.

So if it doesn't exist on Wikipedia, it must not exist at all

It was a limited production of the Camaro but nevertheless a F-Body. A more common F-body with similar specs would be the Firebird Firehawk '00-'02.

Of course you don't know what the discussion is. You don't even know what was posted.

You said that the torque output of the Honda S2000 is too low to "go anywhere." You were wrong.

Another vague claim. Clare to elaborate?

Azuremen pointed out that it goes places nearly as fast as an LS1 F-body. He was right.

Yes he was right, about the 0-60 times. On all other 'straight line scenarios' he was not. Next.

Mclaren showed test results showing that an S2000 runs a quarter mile half a second slower than your beloved F-body.

Motortrend

Motortrend is a joke with it comes to accurate 1/4 mile times and 0-60 times. Stock AP2's with a good driver can run 13.9's and even 13.8's. Don't take my word for it, look around at various S2k forums and you'll see. F-Bodies with a good driver, can run 12.9's and 12.8's. My 7th grade math skills tell me that's about a second difference.

You then said that straight line performance is usually used to compare engines. You were wrong.

If you don't know what we're discussing, go buy this:

And then come back when you've passed the quiz questions, okay champ?



We are discussing stock cars. I don't care what's at the drag strip.



Calculating drivetrain loss is an inexact science without a chassis dyno and an engine dyno. You used neither to arrive at your numbers. It gets even more inexact when fanboys want to believe their car is putting out more horsepower than it does. Here's are spec sheets from somebody who doesn't have something to defend. None of them say 345hp. These are official ratings that we use to compare the cars. Deal with it.



Except he didn't.



And yet you went around comparing engines still ignoring gear ratios.



Except they weren't.



Motortrend results:

'00 S2000 to 60 in 5.8 seconds, & the QTR mile in 14.2 @ 98.1 mph.

They put a '00 Trans-Am WS6 to 60 in 5 seconds and the QTR mile in 13.5 @ 107.4mph.

For further comparison, they also ran a '00 Camaro SS to 60 in 5.3 seconds and QTR in 13.7 @ 105.6mph.

14.2/13.7 = 103.6%

14.2/13.5 = 105.2%

And we're still left with the glaring issue that nobody here cares about 1/4 mile times.



No, right now I'm just showing how poor your reading comprehension skills are. This way if I ever see another asinine post from you, I can always refer back to these posts and see how many pages you got through that reading comprehension book. Good luck.



If you think that's humor then I gotta ask, how's the 7th grade going? Remember, SOH CAH TOA!

I'm posting car specs and performance numbers, and you're posting pictures of children's reading books and claiming people are in 7th grade because they disagree with you.

Don't think I'm the one needing to brush up on my SOH CAH TOA skills 👍

 

[Beeblebrox237]

So if it doesn't exist on Wikipedia, it must not exist at all

It was a limited production of the Camaro but nevertheless a F-Body. A more common F-body with similar specs would be the Firebird Firehawk '00-'02.

So, what's the point? I notice you ignored the rest of my post about this being the cool wall and how speed isn't relevant.

I'm posting car specs and performance numbers, and you're posting pictures of children's reading books and claiming people are in 7th grade because they disagree with you.

Don't think I'm the one needing to brush up on my SOH CAH TOA skills 👍

No, you're posting the same thing over and over again and ignoring his reasonable arguments. If you can't deal with the fact that you've been proven wrong, I recommend finding another forum. And he's totally right about your location, BTW, it's childish and stupid and I for one don't find it funny.

 

[Harry6784]

So, what's the point? I notice you ignored the rest of my post about this being the cool wall and how speed isn't relevant.

I didn't know that posting car specs in a car forum needed justifying.

No, you're posting the same thing over and over again and ignoring his reasonable arguments. If you can't deal with the fact that you've been proven wrong, I recommend finding another forum. And he's totally right about your location, BTW, it's childish and stupid and I for one don't find it funny.

Ok then, excuse me while I go and find a copy of reading comprehension, because that's apparently a reasonable argument.

 

[McLaren]

Questions my source as invalid & then relies on various drivers of different locations & skill to to argue his point.

Anyone with any common sense will rely more on various magazine times to get an idea of what a car can do that what joe murica can do in his car. $20 says half the times also include various mods because that's the nature of F-Body owners.

Let it be known now that you provided zero times until this past post as well to prove your "1 second difference". And as before, you still hold no credibility with them.

 

[Harry6784]

Questions my source as invalid & then relies on various drivers of different locations & skill to to argue his point.

Anyone with any common sense will rely more on various magazine times to get an idea of what a car can do that what joe murica can do in his car. $20 says half the times also include various mods because that's the nature of F-Body owners.

I'd much rather have information about the specs of a car from a skilled driver who owns that car and knows it's limits than some guy who gets the car for a day and has to review it before returning it to the Honda dealership the next morning.

 

[Beeblebrox237]

I didn't know that posting car specs in a car forum needed justifying.

Well, okay, if I don't have to justify my specs, did you know that a stock AP2 S2000 can do a 9 second quarter mile? My friend Boris once did it in his bone stock S2000, so it must be true.

Ok then, excuse me while I go and find a copy of reading comprehension, because that's apparently a reasonable argument.

Seems about as reasonable as you pulling numbers out of thin air and expecting us to believe them blindly. We're not stupid.

 

[Harry6784]

Well, okay, if I don't have to justify my specs, did you know that a stock AP2 S2000 can do a 9 second quarter mile? My friend Boris once did it in his bone stock S2000, so it must be true.

If I can find your friend Boris in multiple car web sites, I would totally believe you

Seems about as reasonable as you pulling numbers out of thin air and expecting us to believe them blindly. We're not stupid.

I'm assuming you didn't take my advice and look on other forums. Driver skill is a huge factor in 1/4 mile times. Same reason one guy posts a 14.6 in his Camaro and another guy makes a 13.2 pass. Despite what Motortrend might tell you there is no magical number each car runs, it all depends on the driver, conditions and car performance. If you would spend 10 minutes looking around to see what people run in their stock cars, you get a good sense what they should run.

I'm comparing car performance, not driver performance.

 

[ImaRobot]

So if it doesn't exist on Wikipedia, it must not exist at all

It was a limited production of the Camaro but nevertheless a F-Body. A more common F-body with similar specs would be the Firebird Firehawk '00-'02.

All I seem to find is that Blackwing is a company that manufactures aftermarket parts for cars? Is that to say that this car you speak of is not actually a factory car, but more of something put together by them? Something Mugen/Spoon does with Honda's?

Its weird that I cant find the actual car, on the whole of the internet. No matter how limited something is, there is always information on it.

 

[McLaren]

I'd much rather have information about the specs of a car from a skilled driver who owns that car and knows it's limits than some guy who gets the car for a day and has to review it before returning it to the Honda dealership the next morning.

Thats just it. You do not know the talent of the driver. Even then, it's only 1 of possibly several differing variables. Elevation, mods, etc.

Your post already lists one that remains constant; if he only has the car for 1 day, then that means he'll have no time to acquaint himself with 1 car over the other.

It's not like these are novice drivers, either.

 

[Beeblebrox237]

If I can find your friend Boris in multiple car web sites, I would totally believe you

Well, I guess you just have to know where to look, like for the Blackwing Camaro which doesn't seem to exist as a factory model as far as I can tell.

I'm assuming you didn't take my advice and look on other forums. Driver skill is a huge factor in 1/4 mile times. Same reason one guy posts a 14.6 in his Camaro and another guy makes a 13.2 pass. Despite what Motortrend might tell you there is no magical number each car runs, it all depends on the driver, conditions and car performance. If you would spend 10 minutes looking around to see what people run in their stock cars, you get a good sense what they should run.

I'm comparing car performance, not driver performance.

By your own argument, then, it's more logical to compare numbers achieved by one professional source, because they will have a set method for testing, and so the numbers will be far more comparable as they were obtained under similar conditions.

 

[Wolfe]

Another vague claim. Clare to elaborate?

Yours was the vague claim:

You can have the widest torque band in the world, you're still not going anywhere with 146lb-ft of torque.

...and while we're playing this game, you opened your contribution to the thread with this similarly hyperbolic nonsense:

Even though it gets out torqued by a lawnmower...

Care to elaborate?

Despite what Motortrend might tell you there is no magical number each car runs, it all depends on the driver, conditions and car performance.

Key word here. Magazine tests account for conditions, either by pairing cars up on the same day or using calculations to adjust for temperature, elevation and so forth. It's not perfect, but it inarguably makes for a more reliable source than straight quarter mile times plucked from forum posts.

 

[Harry6784]

All I seem to find is that Blackwing is a company that manufactures aftermarket parts for cars? Is that to say that this car you speak of is not actually a factory car, but more of something put together by them? Something Mugen/Spoon does with Honda's?

Its weird that I cant find the actual car, on the whole of the internet. No matter how limited something is, there is always information on it.

Here is a list of total production numbers for the Camaro. Look at the 2002 year and you'll see the 'SLP Options' RPO code (Y2Y). Blackwing was the name of the lid used as part of SLP's performance boost. Here is further info on Y2Y productions.

 

[Zenith]

This guy should probably get off GTP and go continue training for the Summer Olympics. His mental gymnastics skills are unprecedented.

 

[Harry6784]

This guy should probably get off GTP and go continue training for the Summer Olympics. His mental gymnastics skills are unprecedented.

Glad to see Jordan's web hosting bills are being well invested.

 

[Beeblebrox237]

Here is a list of total production numbers for the Camaro. Look at the 2002 year and you'll see the 'SLP Options' RPO code (Y2Y). Blackwing was the name of the lid used as part of SLP's performance boost. Here is further info on Y2Y productions.

Cars.com has a 335 bhp version of the 2002 Camaro listed. Could that be the Y2Y? If it is, then I don't know where you're getting 345 bhp.

And I notice you decided to ignore my previous post. Was it too logical for you?

 

[Harry6784]

Cars.com has a 335 bhp version of the 2002 Camaro listed. Could that be the Y2Y? If it is, then I don't know where you're getting 345 bhp.

And I notice you decided to ignore my previous post. Was it too logical for you?

I don't think so. Detailed production numbers for these cars are sparse. There were many, many different trims available (not just the Z28 & SS) and most car reviewers picked one often not clarifying which.

I believe this answers your question 👍


edit: which post did I ignore? I'm kinda overwhelmed

 

[Beeblebrox237]

I don't think so. Detailed production numbers for these cars are sparse. There were many, many different trims available (not just the Z28 & SS) and most car reviewers picked one often not clarifying which.

I believe this answers your question 👍

So one forum post is considered accurate information? I don't consider that an acceptable source for data. And note that even he mentions that it was rated from 335-345 bhp, which shows me how sure he is of himself. It also tells me that Cars.com was almost certainly referring to the Y2Y thingy with the 335 bhp engine, which would have been the factory rating.

 

[Harry6784]

So one forum post is considered accurate information? I don't consider that an acceptable source for data. And note that even he mentions that it was rated from 335-345 bhp, which shows me how sure he is of himself. It also tells me that Cars.com was almost certainly referring to the Y2Y thingy with the 335 bhp engine, which would have been the factory rating.

I can't believe we're arguing over 10hp

Y2Y simply denoted that there were SLP options added to the regular SS trim. Some cars had the blackwing lid, some had dual exhaust, some had both (hence the 335-345 variation).

 

[Beeblebrox237]

I can't believe we're arguing over 10hp

Y2Y simply denoted that there were SLP options added to the regular SS trim. Some cars had the blackwing lid, some had dual exhaust, some had both (hence the 335-345 variation).

We're arguing about the accuracy of your data. And so far, your data is looking pretty shaky.

As I mentioned before, numerical data is credible when it comes from credible sources who obtain the data under controlled circumstances. Not random people on forums.

 

[Harry6784]

We're arguing about the accuracy of your data. And so far, your data is looking pretty shaky.

As I mentioned before, numerical data is credible when it comes from credible sources who obtain the data under controlled circumstances. Not random people on forums.

RPM WS6 is ls1tech's version of Jordan. I wouldn't consider him a 'random person'.

As for shaky data, please tell me more about...

the Y2Y thingy with the 335 bhp engine

 

[Slash]

I think Harry might be on to something regarding the Camaro. I remember reading that the Firehawk additions were check able on the order forms for the car as a dealer option so I would assume something similar was offered for the Camaro. They had a nice bump in horsepower. The 345 number doesn't seem that far out from what I remember in fact it may have been higher.

 

[Beeblebrox237]

RPM WS6 is ls1tech's version of Jordan. I wouldn't consider him a 'random person'.

As for shaky data, please tell me more about...

I got that number from a reputable car site. Not a forum. One person's word doesn't cut it for me.

Anyway, this argument is incredibly off topic. We're talking about whether the S2000's performance is close to the F-Body's. On a track, it's far quicker, and I'd wager that on a twisty road it would leave a Camaro in the dust. Straight line speed isn't everything, and having to explain to people what the heck a Blackwing package is is just silly. Coolness isn't about performance, it's about how people view your car.

And unfortunately for you, you haven't given me reason to think that your car is particularly cool when you feel the need to argue over exactly how many horsepower it has using numbers that don't come from an official source and acting like 1/4 mile times are all that matter.

 

[Harry6784]

Anyway, this argument is incredibly off topic.

I agree.

We're talking about whether the S2000's performance is close to the F-Body's. On a track, it's far quicker, and I'd wager that on a twisty road it would leave a Camaro in the dust.

I agree:

Compared to traditional Muscle Cars, F-Bodies can handle corners quite well, but it's still a no contest with a S2k. Around a track, stock for stock, the Honda will humiliate an F-body. The S2000's were designed for carving corners.

But this is stock for stock. Once you start modding anything can happen

Straight line speed isn't everything, and having to explain to people what the heck a Blackwing package is is just silly. Coolness isn't about performance, it's about how people view your car.

Never claimed straight line speed is everything. You asked what the Blackwing was and I explained it to you, how is that silly?

And unfortunately for you, you haven't given me reason to think that your car is particularly cool when you feel the need to argue over exactly how many horsepower it has using numbers that don't come from an official source and acting like 1/4 mile times are all that matter.

I never claimed my car is 'cool'. I was simply comparing specs. Whether you think it's cool or not is entirely a matter of opinion. We are comparing a vehicle's performance in a straight line, I believe in this scenario 1/4 times are relevant.

 

[Beeblebrox237]

Never claimed straight line speed is everything. You asked what the Blackwing was and I explained it to you, how is that silly?

It's silly because your data is inconsistent and hard to verify.

I never claimed my car is 'cool'. I was simply comparing specs. Whether you think it's cool or not is entirely a matter of opinion. We are comparing a vehicle's performance in a straight line, I believe in this scenario 1/4 times are relevant.

I don't believe that in this scenario 1/4 mile times are relevant. The original point was, IIRC, that the S2000 is not significantly slower than the F-Body in a straight line. Am I right or have I misunderstood the original argument?

1/4 mile times are relevant at the drag strip. In the real world, standing starts almost never happen, grip is inconsistent, drivers vary, cars vary, and speeds generally don't exceed about 80-90 MPH unless you're being very reckless on a straight road. And the S2000 isn't about straight roads at all.

 

[Harry6784]

It's silly because your data is inconsistent and hard to verify.

It's very clear to me. Blackwing package was an option you could order from the deader. Classified under RPO code Y2Y, it offered a true dual exhaust system and better flowing airbox lid which bumped the horsepower to 345hp. If you need more information then I suggest you call GM.

I don't believe that in this scenario 1/4 mile times are relevant. The original point was, IIRC, that the S2000 is not significantly slower than the F-Body in a straight line. Am I right or have I misunderstood the original argument?

Saying 1/4 times aren't relevant to straight line performance is like saying g's pulled on the skidpad aren't relevant to cornering performance.

1/4 mile times are relevant at the drag strip. In the real world, standing starts almost never happen, grip is inconsistent, drivers vary, cars vary, and speeds generally don't exceed about 80-90 MPH unless you're being very reckless on a straight road. And the S2000 isn't about straight roads at all.

Standing starts never happen? Do they not have stop signs and stop lights where you live?

Then by that logic a Nissan Leaf can keep up with a Bugatti Veyron since speeds don't generally exceed 80-90 MPH right?

 

[Conza]

Awesome engine, looks, fantastic sports car. None of which makes it cool BUT.

The fact you'll buy this car, even though it doesn't have a roof, that makes it cool imo

 

[Azuremen]

If you think that's humor then I gotta ask, how's the 7th grade going? Remember, SOH CAH TOA!

What doe some old hippie coming around here tripping on acid have to do with the 7th grade?

Because mine wasn't nearly that exciting.

Exactly, because in a sports car, that's all that really matters.

No, not really. I'll ask again, you ever driven a sports car? Carts and bikes don't count.

A regular car is just a tool to get you from place to place, nothing more.

And sports cars usually have to get you from point A to B as well.

A sports car (A proper one atleast.) is designed to be pushed all out. Looking at the power under 4000rpm on an S2000 should have no meaning because you're not going to be there in sports driving, and in real world driving, you'll have more power than you would ever need.

I'm not sure you've ever driven much in the real world, in a variety of cars, or dealt with a variety of road conditions and traffic, but not having to row gears constantly when you want to get around Captain slow while merger is nice. As is not having a car wheeze if you want to leave it at 2000rpm when you want to change speed at a decent pace.

I can tell you from my experience in owning a few cars that spin out to 8000+ RPM, including one with VTEC, having to rev the nuts off the car to pass anyone in traffic, over take, get off a light, pull out into heavier traffic, or even feel engine response gets old. It gets very old, very fast.

I have a little 2L I4 and I almost never go over 2500rpm, there's no point.

Probably because you don't have twice the power at 4 times the RPM to push it too.

If I ever do get a sports car, then it'll be optimized for the track, because that's going to be its main duty.

Idealism, but alright. Please let me know how that plan pans over by the time you're my age. Because I've done that, and having a lifeless day to day car and then a trackday/weekend special for those certain times gets annoying.

I agree on the M3 having a wider powerband, a torqueier motor running at lower rpms but the same power is going to have a higher average horsepower than one where you have to rev it out.

Congrats, you understand that HP is a function of torque. Bravo.

You seem to be forgetting that the performance of a car is more than just how high it can rev. And that you make compromises to produce torque up high for that extra power, or the issues of rotational mass being exponential with speed, or gear ratios. You're making an apples to oranges comparison based on armchair racing. Your argument is effectively "things that spin faster are better because they will make more Horsepower because that is a function of torque and engine speed" which is just theory crafting performance figures.

Look, I don't think the F20 or F22 are bad motors. I do think they aren't the best things to put into near 3000 pound roadsters, nor are they easy to get more power out of because the tolerances are already very fine due to that high RPM power delivery.

And personally, I like not having to make tons of noise and dramatically revving the car out to beat a minivan off the light to not get stuck behind them on the on ramp.

Amusingly, I use to make similar arguments that you are and then I drove more cars and starting being a bit more open minded about things. Ask some of the older members how far fetched me driving anything built outside of Japan seemed 5 years ago, and the general surprise when I picked up an M3 after owning 8 Japanese cars, endless diatribes on curb weights, displacement, and so on.

 

[McLaren]

Holy hell, that was a long way of twisting Beeble's words there at the end. That has nothing to do with his "logic", that's just you being completely daft to think that's anywhere near similar.

 

[Beeblebrox237]

It's very clear to me. Blackwing package was an option you could order from the deader. Classified under RPO code Y2Y, it offered a true dual exhaust system and better flowing airbox lid which bumped the horsepower to 345hp. If you need more information then I suggest you call GM.

You're the one who has the burden of proof, not me. You call GM.

Saying 1/4 times aren't relevant to straight line performance is like saying g's pulled on the skidpad aren't relevant to cornering performance.

I think you just made my point for me. g's tell you nothing about how a car corners, just how much grip it generates in one specific, controlled scenario, just like how a 1/4 mile time show you how quick a car is under very specific conditions. Which are almost never replicated on the street, and if they are it's totally illegal.

Standing starts never happen? Do they not have stop signs and stop lights where you live?

Sure they do, but when was the last time you tried to replicate your best drag strip run from a stoplight? Sure, you might give it full throttle once in a while, but you won't be doing a full launch.

Then by that logic a Nissan Leaf can keep up with a Bugatti Veyron since speeds don't generally exceed 80-90 MPH right?

Yes, finally, you understand what I'm saying!

 

[Slash]

Which are almost never replicated on the street, and if they are it's totally illegal.

Using slicks are illegal yes, but I wasn't aware it was illegal to accelerate to speed quickly.


Depends on the cop and how fast you accelerate though. Best bet is to go slow.