GTP Cool Wall: 2004-2009 Honda S2000

[Beeblebrox237]

Using slicks are illegal yes, but I wasn't aware it was illegal to accelerate to speed quickly.


Depends on the cop and how fast you accelerate though. Best bet is to go slow.

It is illegal to exceed the speed limit and participate in street racing. And cops generally frown upon wheelspin and hard launches.

 

[Slash]

It is illegal to exceed the speed limit

No one said anything about exceeding the speed limit, but I see what you are saying about the 1/4 mile issue, where it is very easy to exceed it, if not impossible.

and participate in street racing.

Agreed. But say we aren't doing that here, just pulling out of a parking lot, straightening out and then gunning it up to speed, as seen here:

And cops generally frown upon wheelspin and hard launches.

That's why I said you kind of have to watch it, and the best thing is to go slow (and not do it). But it's very hard not to when you have got 400hp under your foot and a burning itch to

 

[Beeblebrox237]

@Slash Stuff like what you posted happens all the time, I was originally referring to a hard launch from a standing start.

 

[Slash]

@Slash Stuff like what you posted happens all the time, I was originally referring to a hard launch from a standing start.

Yeah that's frowned upon but it doesn't stop people from doing it

 

[Harry6784]

You're the one who has the burden of proof, not me. You call GM.

I have all the information I need. If you cannot understand that is none of my concern.

I think you just made my point for me. g's tell you nothing about how a car corners, just how much grip it generates in one specific, controlled scenario, just like how a 1/4 mile time show you how quick a car is under very specific conditions. Which are almost never replicated on the street, and if they are it's totally illegal.

Really? G's tell you absolutely nothing? Formula 1 cars pull almost 4G's and a Hummer pulls .62 G's. I wonder which has better handling...

Sure they do, but when was the last time you tried to replicate your best drag strip run from a stoplight? Sure, you might give it full throttle once in a while, but you won't be doing a full launch.

Quite often actually. There's a stoplight on the way to school that leads to a highway with a speed limit of 60mph. And on the way home I have to merge onto a highway of cars going 70+ when I'm at a standstill. There's plenty of times where I can bang through at least 2 gears at WOT

 

[Beeblebrox237]

Really? G's tell you absolutely nothing? Formula 1 cars pull almost 4G's and a Hummer pulls .62 G's. I wonder which has better handling...

I also wonder which one's limits are easier for an average driver to reach, or which one oversteers more, or which one responds to bumpy roads better?

Quite often actually. There's a stoplight on the way to school that leads to a highway with a speed limit of 60mph. And on the way home I have to merge onto a highway of cars going 70+ when I'm at a standstill. There's plenty of times where I can bang through at least 2 gears at WOT

But do you go as fast as you can, or do you start a bit more gently to avoid wheelspin and to be safe?

 

[SlipZtrEm]

I can't help but notice @Harry6784 didn't address this, either...

Another vague claim. Clare to elaborate?

Yours was the vague claim:

You can have the widest torque band in the world, you're still not going anywhere with 146lb-ft of torque.

...and while we're playing this game, you opened your contribution to the thread with this similarly hyperbolic nonsense:

Even though it gets out torqued by a lawnmower...

Care to elaborate?

Despite what Motortrend might tell you there is no magical number each car runs, it all depends on the driver, conditions and car performance.

Key word here. Magazine tests account for conditions, either by pairing cars up on the same day or using calculations to adjust for temperature, elevation and so forth. It's not perfect, but it inarguably makes for a more reliable source than straight quarter mile times plucked from forum posts.

 

[Slash]

@Beeblebrox237

I've been known to start gently to get grip so I don't like them up, and other times I floor it to leave a show for bystanders.

 

[McLaren]

Using slicks are illegal yes, but I wasn't aware it was illegal to accelerate to speed quickly.


Depends on the cop and how fast you accelerate though. Best bet is to go slow.

It's called Display of Acceleration. You're right it depends on the cop, but generally someone doing it to be seen as a "purposeful exhibition of power" would be enough to warrant a stop.

Harry here claiming he likes to run to 50mph from a near stand still at WOT would fit that bill easily, more so if the tires chirp or flys by someone.

Watch some of the videos of people leaving Cars & Coffee in Dallas. Many guys got pulled over for simply accelerating too fast towards a cruiser 100 yards away.

 

[Harry6784]

I can't help but notice @Harry6784 didn't address this, either...

There's nothing to address. Not only did you quote me out of context, but half of those are sarcastic, hyperbolic jokes I made to highlight the S2k's lack of torque.

I also wonder which one's limits are easier for an average driver to reach, or which one oversteers more, or which one responds to bumpy roads better?

A driver will be able to pull .5 G's with much less effort in an F1 car than a Hummer.

But do you go as fast as you can, or do you start a bit more gently to avoid wheelspin and to be safe?

Depending if there are cars around me. If I'm alone, I will act as if I'm at the drag strip. 4000RPM launch, hold the tires on the edge of their grip (spinning means all your doing is turning potential grip into smoke) and ride out 1st. Pop it in 2nd, ride that out and I should be around 60mph. Shut it down and hope there aren't any cops around me that are short on their monthly quota.

 

[Slash]

Watch some of the videos of people leaving Cars & Coffee in Dallas. Many guys got pulled over for simply accelerating too fast towards a cruiser 100 yards away.

Yeah I've watched a lot of those videos. Seen people get pulled over.

 

[Harry6784]

Yeah I've watched a lot of those videos. Seen people get pulled over.

I've seen them too at car shows. Possibly one of the stupidest things you can do is to do a WOT pull in a loud, expensive, noticeable car next to a place crawling with cops

 

[Slash]

As long as there are no cops I'd do it too.

 

[Beeblebrox237]

There's nothing to address. Not only did you quote me out of context, but half of those are sarcastic, hyperbolic jokes I made to highlight the S2k's lack of torque.

A driver will be able to pull .5 G's with much less effort in an F1 car than a Hummer.

That's not what I said. And that's not what handling is about. Handling is about how a car responds to driver inputs, not how much grip it makes. If the car is twitchy or ponderous then it doesn't handle well. The same holds true for acceleration, to some extent. Having fun in a car is all about the whole experience. The S2000 isn't the fastest, torquiest car in the world, but the engine and chassis are extremely responsive. I very much doubt that an LS1 has the kind of throttle response of an S2000.

Depending if there are cars around me. If I'm alone, I will act as if I'm at the drag strip. 4000RPM launch, hold the tires on the edge of their grip (spinning means all your doing is turning potential grip into smoke) and ride out 1st. Pop it in 2nd, ride that out and I should be around 60mph. Shut it down and hope there aren't any cops around me that are short on their monthly quota.

Yeah, well there's a reason I've never seen anyone do it. It's reckless and probably illegal and I'd be willing to bet that a cop will pull you over for it someday.

 

[McLaren]

Probably? That's dead on illegal. Easy to throw in a couple citations for treating the street light as your personal Christmas tree.

 

[Harry6784]

That's not what I said. And that's not what handling is about. Handling is about how a car responds to driver inputs, not how much grip it makes. If the car is twitchy or ponderous then it doesn't handle well. The same holds true for acceleration, to some extent. Having fun in a car is all about the whole experience. The S2000 isn't the fastest, torquiest car in the world, but the engine and chassis are extremely responsive. I very much doubt that an LS1 has the kind of throttle response of an S2000.

I never said G's tell you everything about a car's handling characteristics, but it is a very well indicator of how quickly it will go around a corner. Higher G's generally mean more speed going through a corner which equates to a faster time. Having 'fun' is completely different than analyzing a car's performance figures. A Huayra is faster than a Miata in every measurable way, but I'd rather drive a Miata around Laguna Seca because I feel I would enjoy it more. I'm not about to argue throttle response with everyone in this thread over the next 3 pages, but I will say this; On some tracks, I would rather drive an S2000 than a F-body. Let's remember I rated this car as 'Cool' and would love to own one. Around the right racetrack it would be not only faster than an F-Body but more fun and possibly even easier to drive.

Yeah, well there's a reason I've never seen anyone do it. It's reckless and probably illegal and I'd be willing to bet that a cop will pull you over for it someday.

I only do it on dry days when I'm sure I have grip and when no one is around me. I fell comfortable taking my car to the limit and legality depends on the mood of the cop, should they see me. I've know many of my friends get pulled over by cops and after 5 min of telling them to slow down, it was followed by 15 min of the cop inquiring about the car and their build info.

 

[Crispy]

Watch some of the videos of people leaving Cars & Coffee in Dallas. Many guys got pulled over for simply accelerating too fast towards a cruiser 100 yards away.

Many Lambo's pulled over each meet.

In my town the cops can actually write you a ticket for accelerating to fast. I used to think it was BS until I saw an idiot in a ZR1 give it the beans when turning right on red before merging to the highway. Ended up oversteering and had a good chance of causing an accident but he was able to recover and gimp away with his tail between his legs.

 

[Harry6784]

Many Lambo's pulled over each meet.

In my town the cops can actually write you a ticket for accelerating to fast. I used to think it was BS until I saw an idiot in a ZR1 give it the beans when turning right on red before merging to the highway. Ended up oversteering and had a good chance of causing an accident but he was able to recover and gimp away with his tail between his legs.

Funny how people just brush it off so easily. I've seen many people nearly lose it, get back on the road and carry on like nothing happened

 

[xXKingJoshXx]

Funny how people just brush it off so easily. I've seen many people nearly lose it, get back on the road and carry on like nothing happened

Like this?

 

[Bopop4]

No, not really. I'll ask again, you ever driven a sports car? Carts and bikes don't count.

I have not, although I don't see how much of a bearing it has.

A "sports" car is just that, for sports.

When you drive one on the street, it shouldn't matter how good it is at low rpm because you don't need any power for street driving. I think the engine in my car is double the size it should be, a little 1 litre like what's in the Euro Yaris would be perfect.

I'm not sure you've ever driven much in the real world, in a variety of cars, or dealt with a variety of road conditions and traffic, but not having to row gears constantly when you want to get around Captain slow while merger is nice. As is not having a car wheeze if you want to leave it at 2000rpm when you want to change speed at a decent pace.

I can tell you from my experience in owning a few cars that spin out to 8000+ RPM, including one with VTEC, having to rev the nuts off the car to pass anyone in traffic, over take, get off a light, pull out into heavier traffic, or even feel engine response gets old. It gets very old, very fast.

I've been driving for almost 3 years through Canadian winters, with SUVs, minivans, sedans, compacts, and a 650ft-lb+ turbo diesel truck.

I have never felt a need for more power except when starting out on this one particularly steep hill, which even the truck needed a good bit of gas to get up at a decent speed.

Probably because you don't have twice the power at 4 times the RPM to push it too.

?

Your argument is effectively "things that spin faster are better because they will make more Horsepower because that is a function of torque and engine speed" which is just theory crafting performance figures.

If you can make equal amounts of torque while also spinning faster, then yes, I agree with that.

I know that the F20 can't compete with something like an S50 because of the way it makes power. It's like asking a B16 to tow a trailer through the city.

But the bias against the engine for lacking torque irks me because it has power to make up for it, you can't expect a 2L N/A engine to pull from down low like a 5.7 V8. When you compare it to something like what's in the Miata, then you see where the technological marvel comes into it. Being able to carry the torque curve like that all the way to such a high redline is something I find cool, because you get way more speed than if you just stuck a 7k limiter on it.

Sure, they could've given it a V6 and had a nice powerband, but that's not what makes it special, having to wring it out to 9k is awesome in a car, and that's cool.

Amusingly, I use to make similar arguments that you are and then I drove more cars and starting being a bit more open minded about things. Ask some of the older members how far fetched me driving anything built outside of Japan seemed 5 years ago, and the general surprise when I picked up an M3 after owning 8 Japanese cars, endless diatribes on curb weights, displacement, and so on.

I actually think I'm very open minded with cars/engines.

Sorry to bring up bikes, but I've ridden trials bikes where they make a ton of power and torque right off of idle, screamer sports bikes where it feels dead under 8 grand, 2 stroke twins where the powerband is narrow as a hair, and a trail bike that is good literally anywhere you rev it.

I've been exposed to many types of engines and I just find the high revvers to be better for speed because they can make more power within the rules. I like all engine types, but everyone has preferences.

 

[Tornado]

Gonna respond to just one thing, because it started a two page e-peen tangent and I cannot understand why it wasn't challenge earlier:

Nice job fudging those numbers. I have access to Google too. 2002 Camaro SS was rated at 325hp. Most F bodies had 310hp

He didn't fudge those numbers, and dismissing his post as if he did (as well as the followup post where you did the same when he explained it) was no less disingenuous as his arguments that got everyone to this point in the first place. He provided two comparable dyno readouts and applied a generic 15% power correction for both of them to line them up with official statistics (in the Camaro's case, what he believed the Camaro special option code equivalent of the very real Firebird Firehawk made). He actually pointed this out immediately when questioned, but that was fobbed off as essentially "fanboy excuses" and ignored by everyone else.


The obvious issue with this is that it was done despite the LS1 F-Bodies official power numbers (even before you started getting into the limited option code models) being about as tangible as those of the "280PS" Japanese cars in the late 1990s were, and this being a known thing ever since the cars were new.

 

[niky]

Trying to justify BHP ratings from WHP ratings is always a fruitless task, because no two dynos are alike and no two drivetrains are alike. All that matters is what the cars do on the road. Period.

-

And this silliness has gone pretty far over so little. Can an S2000 keep up in a straightline speed contest with an 02 Camaro? Nope. It traps several mph slower in the quarter (a number more important than speed, because it is relatively unaffected by off-the-line traction)... which, from experience, is something you DO notice, but does not render the S2000 dog slow.

Does this really matter in the environment the S2000 is meant to be used in (on the racetrack or twisty roads)? Nope. A car that handles well and can put down the power early out of a corner will be faster and will feel faster on the track or a challenging road.

-

Does this have anything to do with coolness? Nope. Not at all.

 

[Azuremen]

I have not, although I don't see how much of a bearing it has.

A "sports" car is just that, for sports.

When you drive one on the street, it shouldn't matter how good it is at low rpm because you don't need any power for street driving. I think the engine in my car is double the size it should be, a little 1 litre like what's in the Euro Yaris would be perfect.

But you are building an opinion on something you've never experienced directly. It would be like me bashing Forza or GT while never playing one or the other. On top of that, sports cars have soul and personal elements that are quite subjective, so while you claim to prefer the high revving, low torque concept (as I once did) you might change your mind at the drop of hat upon experiencing it.

I've been driving for almost 3 years through Canadian winters, with SUVs, minivans, sedans, compacts, and a 650ft-lb+ turbo diesel truck.

I have never felt a need for more power except when starting out on this one particularly steep hill, which even the truck needed a good bit of gas to get up at a decent speed.

You don't need more power, but it certainly is nice when you want it. Quickly being able to pick up speed when the person in front you merger onto the Freeway thought 30mph into 80mph traffic would work, etc.

?

You don't get that much more from revving the nuts off a car, so there isn't much temptation to do so.

If you can make equal amounts of torque while also spinning faster, then yes, I agree with that.

And this is the big trick, isn't it. As you commented earlier, that 800RPM drop from the F20 the F22 is just from extending the stroke, along with other considerations.

But the bias against the engine for lacking torque irks me because it has power to make up for it, you can't expect a 2L N/A engine to pull from down low like a 5.7 V8. When you compare it to something like what's in the Miata, then you see where the technological marvel comes into it. Being able to carry the torque curve like that all the way to such a high redline is something I find cool, because you get way more speed than if you just stuck a 7k limiter on it.

I spend a couple of years in an engineering program at university, I can fully appreciate the engineering considerations. I can also appreciate considerations involved in building a 5.7L V8 paired with a drivetrain that will get similar MPG at that 2.0L setup, while having more of everything.

But please stop explaining to me the "marvel" of engineering the F20 is, I likely have a better understanding of the physics involved along with first hand experience with such cars. Remember, I've owned two cars that went to 8000RPM and the power built non-stop while doing so.

Sure, they could've given it a V6 and had a nice powerband, but that's not what makes it special, having to wring it out to 9k is awesome in a car, and that's cool.

It is cool for about a week. And then it gets tiresome.

Sorry to bring up bikes, but I've ridden trials bikes where they make a ton of power and torque right off of idle, screamer sports bikes where it feels dead under 8 grand, 2 stroke twins where the powerband is narrow as a hair, and a trail bike that is good literally anywhere you rev it.

I've been exposed to many types of engines and I just find the high revvers to be better for speed because they can make more power within the rules. I like all engine types, but everyone has preferences.

I started riding bikes when I was 4, but this is a very, very apples and oranges thing to compare. They are just different.

Personal preference is great, but it is harder to build a strong opinion when you haven't experienced much of what you are talking about. The S2000 is an example of amazing engineering, from engine to chassis, but it just isn't quite as pure as a Miata, nor as civil as 6 cylinder options. I use to put it on a pedestal for ages then I experienced one and was like "eh, okay" and pairing that with years of owning stiff, light, revvy cars made the whole thing unappealing and tiresome. It gets exhausting to deal with over time, tedious almost. And then the blind spots with the top up, the weight making it not too removed from much more practical and powerful cars, and can't tell the difference economy just make it kind of an awkward option. If I want a revvy, crazy weekend warrior, give me something truly quirky and light - a Miata with a supercharger, an MR-S with a 2ZZ swap, an old Porsche, a stock Elise.

tl;dr - the S2000 isn't cool because it isn't nearly crazy enough about its goals. A set of compromises for the sake of engineering, and super conservative styling that just makes it meh. Honestly, I'd give it uncool now because this conversation has made me realize how soulless I feel it is.

 

[Beeblebrox237]

@Azuremen While you're not wrong per se, you're stating your argument like everything you say is true for everyone. While you may get tired of revving an engine up to get power out of it, not everyone does. Some, like me, really enjoy doing it and don't tire of it.

 

[Slash]

And that's the beauty of engine modification because you can completely change the characteristics and feel of the engine to your preference without sacrificing the car around it (as long as said mods are within reason of course). What it comes down to is if its affordable and practical enough without being ridiculous. Though sometimes ridiculous can be good. Want to increase the cars low RPM power while giving it a broader power band without sacrificing RPMs or high RPM power? Go for it. These days there are no trick performance engines; it is all about how much cash you want to throw at it. Some are cheaper and more practical them others. See the SBC.

 

[Azuremen]

@Azuremen While you're not wrong per se, you're stating your argument like everything you say is true for everyone. While you may get tired of revving an engine up to get power out of it, not everyone does. Some, like me, really enjoy doing it and don't tire of it.

Of course you don't get tired of it, you're 18 And I still love revving the nuts off car, but because I'm not a some kid, I don't do it constantly when driving around to get groceries. Though I did do that quite a bit when I was younger.

My argument is more about people building strong opinions on things they've never experienced. Much like you talking about manuals!!!111 while having never dealt with real traffic or much driving at all. This nature to build stubborn, strong opinions with little real knowledge is the same tendency that leads to issues in society, such as absurdly biased views on nations In this case, bebop has stated he hasn't driven a sports car, let alone the car in question, and yet written a small essay on what a sports car is, how it should drive, and driving in general. It is like claiming to understand sushi because you saw a menu it was on and ate some fishsticks, once.

The problem you have with me and how I discuss things is I prefer people to be informed and educated on issues before they dig in with a strong view point. Which makes it harder for younger people because you simply lack experience. I went though and explained years and years of my experience with cars and revvy engines, including how my viewpoints have changed considerably as I've learned more and gained experience. But we all know teenagers know everything anyhow, so I'm probably just bitter

 

[Tornado]

But we all know teenagers know everything anyhow, so I'm probably just bitter

I knew it!

 

[Beeblebrox237]

Of course you don't get tired of it, you're 18 And I still love revving the nuts off car, but because I'm not a some kid, I don't do it constantly when driving around to get groceries. Though I did do that quite a bit when I was younger.

My argument is more about people building strong opinions on things they've never experienced. Much like you talking about manuals!!!111 while having never dealt with real traffic or much driving at all. This nature to build stubborn, strong opinions with little real knowledge is the same tendency that leads to issues in society, such as absurdly biased views on nations In this case, bebop has stated he hasn't driven a sports car, let alone the car in question, and yet written a small essay on what a sports car is, how it should drive, and driving in general. It is like claiming to understand sushi because you saw a menu it was on and ate some fishsticks, once.

The problem you have with me and how I discuss things is I prefer people to be informed and educated on issues before they dig in with a strong view point. Which makes it harder for younger people because you simply lack experience. I went though and explained years and years of my experience with cars and revvy engines, including how my viewpoints have changed considerably as I've learned more and gained experience. But we all know teenagers know everything anyhow, so I'm probably just bitter

I don't rev the pants off a car every time I drive it. I do enjoy it, though, and I don't mind doing it when I need to. Just because something is true for you doesn't mean it's true for anyone, regardless of how much more experience you have.

I may not have the automotive experience that you have, but I have driven thousands of miles in different cars and different situations. I've experienced traffic jams, in a manual, and I honestly didn't think it was that bad. For me, what's annoying about traffic is being stuck, not having to use a clutch. But that's for a different thread.

I'm not saying I'm not an idiot or a douche, because I am and I'll own up to it. But I try to treat you with respect and I'd appreciate it if you returned the favour. The attitude that I'm getting from your post is that you think you're more qualified, smarter, and better than me simply because you're older and more experienced. That's probably true, but it won't be for everyone, and I'm old enough and experienced to know what I like in a car right now. In 10 years my tastes may change, sure, but it doesn't mean my tastes in 10 years are superior to my tastes now. I have my opinions, you have yours, and we don't overlap very much. But it doesn't make either of us wrong, and I'd appreciate it if you didn't write my opinion off as invalid just because you're older and more experienced than I am, and I'd imagine that Bopop feels the same way.

 

[Slash]

I feel like that a lot

 

[Azuremen]

I don't rev the pants off a car every time I drive it. I do enjoy it, though, and I don't mind doing it when I need to. Just because something is true for you doesn't mean it's true for anyone, regardless of how much more experience you have.

I am fully aware of this. Which is why I have been so extensive in explaining why I find the S2000 to be meh. The reason I jumped into this is because some members were more or less comparing numbers, telling others that "torque doesn't matter," and all while having no actual experience.

I may not have the automotive experience that you have, but I have driven thousands of miles in different cars and different situations. I've experienced traffic jams, in a manual, and I honestly didn't think it was that bad. For me, what's annoying about traffic is being stuck, not having to use a clutch. But that's for a different thread.

The first year I drove, I put down over 20,000 miles (32k km) in a small econo-box. We've discussed your experience with traffic jams (which is nothing compared to proper urban congestion) and your longer haul trips (which aren't that long) and you've conceded that you aren't as experienced. But the difference is orders of magnitude, as I've driven hundreds of thousands of miles And using the clutch gets tiresome after you are stuck in traffic for 3+ hours of never even seeing the speedo register.

I'm not saying I'm not an idiot or a douche, because I am and I'll own up to it. But I try to treat you with respect and I'd appreciate it if you returned the favour.

The fact I spend time discussing anything with you is a sign of respect. So often I'll just disregard what people say because it isn't even worth the time. By engaging you in discussion, I respect you enough to think you're intelligent enough to actually ponder on what I am saying rather than just repeating what I already know. Which is what Bopop did with the numbers, engineering, and so on.

Also, self-depreciation into what amounts to "but..." is a very, very weak form of presentation. Unless for comic devices.

The attitude that I'm getting from your post is that you think you're more qualified, smarter, and better than me simply because you're older and more experienced.

I don't think I am, I know I am.

That's probably true, but it won't be for everyone, and I'm old enough and experienced to know what I like in a car right now. In 10 years my tastes may change, sure, but it doesn't mean my tastes in 10 years are superior to my tastes now. I have my opinions, you have yours, and we don't overlap very much. But it doesn't make either of us wrong, and I'd appreciate it if you didn't write my opinion off as invalid just because you're older and more experienced than I am, and I'd imagine that Bopop feels the same way.

I don't think your opinions are invalid. What I do think is invalid are these tiresome opinions about what a sports car is, how people should be expected to drive, what does and doesn't matter in a car, to disregard torque, endless posting of specs and engineering "facts," and so on, all why having no actual experience. The way you and Bebop go about these things isn't any different than how Harry does, minus being a bit more articulate.

You seem to think I argue to "win," as far too many people view discussion/argument as a debate to be won. The reality is I argue with people in the hopes they'll consider the other side, evaluate their own understanding, and try to see the other side of the coin. This is why you'll see me arguing both sides to theology, politics, cars, gaming, etc. and by doing so, I hope they will open their mind up. Also, being able to construct and articulate arguments helps one to better understand themselves, so by doing this I am being a touch selfish in that it forces to me to learn more and present myself better. And yes, I am this contrary in person, this prone to discussion and debate, so it isn't some Internet only asshole persona I have. I get called an asshole plenty in person as well

I feel like that a lot

It happens But because you're better about presenting yourself, it is easier to understand your position, which makes it easier to discuss things with you, and you've come to appreciate other views more.

Even if I don't agree with your opinions, I do appreciate the knowledge that can be gained when they are expressed.