GTP Cool Wall: 2012+ BMW M5

[Joey D]

I like the guy who brought an F355 Berlinetta to a fleet of F40s.

#firstworldanarchist

 

[MatskiMonk]

The M12/13 was most powerful in 1986 - an (over?)estimated 1400hp

The BMW dyno topped out at 1280hp, so typically it was referred to as being over 1280 at maximum boost.

 

[Cano]

Well that puts a different spin on things. I was under the impression that that kind of finnickiness just plain didn't exist in road cars anymore.

But you're right, I do hate turbos. I'd rather have a supercharger with its spine-tingling shriek and amazing ability to not need variable geometry whateveritis to not lag, or go NA, than have some stupid exhaust gas recycler that makes a stupid little whistling noise when you can hear it at all.

Man, you've been living in an icy cave for the past 20 years. Wait, you're not even 20 iirc. You've been living in an icy cave for all your life. Which fits you well. Refer to this post for the astounding thruth:

Superchargers? Please. Even the quarter mile club guys are switching to turbo. It's just better. And whining about lag? What is this, 1998? Most turbo'd cars can launch from a stoplight and be in the power by the time the rear wheels enter the intersection. Turbo sizing is not difficult.

This is the part that made me laugh the most:

And now, turbos have become a major defining characteristic of a Greenpeace-approved metrosexualmobile with an engine the size of Justin Bieber's talent - and to me, that stigma carries over even to decent-sized engines such as this one.

Because we all know reliable 6 and 7 second street cars are the favorite playing field of Greenpeace metrosexuals:

the ever-famous:

And I didn't even post the ones that don't use V8s, so you won't feel uncomfortable about 4 and 6 cylinder engines pushing 7s on street cars.

And to disprove your point about superchargers > turbos, I give you this:

Which I'm sure you're pretty familiat with, as is it probably the fastest street car in the world right now, going 6.9x in 6 different tracks oin the span of a week last year at Drag Week. Yet they had to cut the supercharger belt for the thing to be able to cruise in the highway, and install another one when they wanted to race. The turbo guys? simply load the lower boost ECU setting and cruise along.

But enough off-topic blabbering. As for this car, bleh bordering on maybe cool. But the exhaust-trough-the-speakers thing is pretty ridiculous

 

[C-ZETA]

You've been living in a cave for all your life.

Given the icy nature of his home state, what if it was an igloo instead?
Wait no. Then he would give a damn about emissions.

 

[Cano]

Given the icy nature of his home state, what if it was an igloo instead?
Wait no. Then he would give a damn about emissions.

Oh, ok. Re-read.

 

[Azure Flare]

Superchargers are driven off the crankshaft, pretty obvious. That still means that they are not as efficient at producing power as turbos. And you lose fuel economy because you have to have more fuel.

Turbos can lag if you have a giant one hanging off your engine, but being smart about what you're going to do with it, you can easily out-do a supercharger.

Turbocharger > supercharger.

 

[Xilor]

My only gripe with turbochargers on mainstream cars is that it adds one more expensive item that WILL go out eventually and have to be replaced.

Then again, with proper maintenance most of them can easily last for 200k-300k+ miles so its not something 99% of us should concern ourselves with.

 

[White & Nerdy]

@Cano that's why I differentiated between factory and aftermarket turbos. Aftermarket installations are usually there for the express purpose of adding more speed, while factory turbos are now usually there to act as prosthetic displacement so the car can have a relatively normal amount of power while pleasing the hippies and the people who'd rather spend money on cable TV than gasoline. Which would be one thing if more than 1% of cable channels were actually worth watching, but they aren't.

 

[Zenith]

@Cano that's why I differentiated between factory and aftermarket turbos. Aftermarket installations are usually there for the express purpose of adding more speed, while factory turbos are now usually there to act as prosthetic displacement so the car can have a relatively normal amount of power while pleasing the hippies and the people who'd rather spend money on cable TV than gasoline. Which would be one thing if more than 1% of cable channels were actually worth watching, but they aren't.

I like how you've admitted that you're not even 20 yet for some reason you think that you know about engine design.

Have you taken an automobile dynamics class? Internal Combustion Engine design? Controls? Hell, have you taken a formalized statics course?

What qualifications do you against the educated engineers and experienced journalists that disagree with you on this forum and everywhere else in the automotive media?

Put up or shut up, kiddo.

 

[Azure Flare]

Is pulling all of his entire argument straight out of his own ass not enough for you?

 

[Cano]

@Cano that's why I differentiated between factory and aftermarket turbos. Aftermarket installations are usually there for the express purpose of adding more speed, while factory turbos are now usually there to act as prosthetic displacement so the car can have a relatively normal amount of power while pleasing the hippies and the people who'd rather spend money on cable TV than gasoline. Which would be one thing if more than 1% of cable channels were actually worth watching, but they aren't.

Wrong again. They are there to extract horsepower out of the engines, even the big ones, way waaaaaaaay more reliably.

I'll tell you a couple anecdotes. As you may know (and if not, you do now) I work for a couple car magazines in Mexico. While I'm an external colaborator I've had the chance to test or at least ride shotgun in some of the tested cars and such. One of those was the V10 M5 (yay, on topic!), which I absolutely loved, but it sadly didn't feel as brutal as I thought it would feel. Why? Because we're 2 kilometers above sea level and the gasoline here is a laugh. It certainly didn't feel like 500 hp in the 500 hp setting, and in the 400 hp setting it felt like a Seat Leon. The thing lost at least 100 horses. At least.

A few weeks ago a guy from the mag and I went to visit a classic car joint outside the city, and since he had to drive it and write about it, our ship for the trip was BMW's brand-new, only-one-in-Mexico, not-sold-yet X5. Yes the ginormous SUV. We go out of the building and the first thing he does is STOMP it. And the thing HAULS. I mean FREAKING HAULS. Pinned us in our seatbacks RIGHT NOW. We both turn wide-eyed to see each other, completely surprised by the thing. "Hernan, what the FREAKING HECK is powering this thing?" -"I don't know, but got daaaaamn". So the rest of the trip was spent hovering around 150-180 km/h, with brief stints of 220 km/h, which came like the thing was accelerating to 80. It was incredibly vicious for a two-ton blob of metal that's supposedly a family SUV (no M model).

I later learned the thing had a twin turbo V8 with somewhere around 450 hp if I remember correctly. And trust me, it felt like 450 hp. That was because of the turbos. So you can extract stupid power out of an engine reliably, make it perform evenly and consistently in most all of situations, and still have a nice warranty and practically zero trouble with it, unlike the V10, for example, which Famine already ddissected for us.

 

[motortrend]

@Cano Those BMW turbo engines really have to be experienced. Even the 35i feels fast as hell with a rated 300 horses.

I bet if @White & Nerdy got a ride in a turbo bimmer (even a four banger 328) his opinion would change.

 

[Kent]

@motortrend I bet if W&N got a ride in a perfectly new Sunbird his opinion would change... One of the things I've noticed around here is how some people think 20 to 30 year old cars are still holding the alleged HP rating it did off the showroom floor. Hate to say it but that's usually not the case.
W&N knocks on four cylinder cars all day and in reality he's probably never even been in a good one.

 

[RandomCarGuy17]

I went with cool.
It's a great looking car and it's a bit subtle. I find subtle to be cool.

 

[CarBastard]

I like how you've admitted that you're not even 20 yet for some reason you think that you know about engine design.

Have you taken an automobile dynamics class? Internal Combustion Engine design? Controls? Hell, have you taken a formalized statics course?

What qualifications do you against the educated engineers and experienced journalists that disagree with you on this forum and everywhere else in the automotive media?

Put up or shut up, kiddo.

And he talks like he knows anything about economy, or politics, or ecology, or third-grade science. He thinks fuel will last forever, that everyone who has any sort of liberal way of thinking is a hippie or a communist, that people who own US$1M supercars got them because they worked hard for them and that the planet earth will endure our crap indefinitely.

Mind you, he doesn't know anything about psychology either and that's why I no longer argue directly with him, because I pity him. Who knows what frankly saddening things happen inside his head to produce those unreasonable mumblings about ecosexuality and macho engines. A couple of threads ago, someone suggested him to get psychological treatment, a sugestion I felt was honest and not aimed at offending him because it's nothing to be embarassed of and that I, personally, feel does wonders for people. And yet, here he is, angrily insisting his Sunbird is the last bastion of macho sexuality that'll save the world from us, liberal communist-satanists who like turbochargers regardless of application and know planet earth cannot take such a beating.

 

[McLaren]

@motortrend I bet if W&N got a ride in a perfectly new Sunbird his opinion would change... One of the things I've noticed around here is how some people think 20 to 30 year old cars are still holding the alleged HP rating it did off the showroom floor. Hate to say it but that's usually not the case.
W&N knocks on four cylinder cars all day and in reality he's probably never even been in a good one.

I think this applies to several of the types of cars he typically rants about.

 

[Kent]

that people who own US$1M supercars got them because they worked hard for them

Let's not become what we complain about... I assure you there are many people out there who are very rich and earned it. 👍

That said, I'm done with the W&N thing for now... I'm actually much more interested in this BMW being that I saw one just yesterday and didn't take the time to post about it in here.
Sadly, and at the same time, gladly, I get to say I couldn't tell it was a M5 until I saw the badge on the rear. I knew it was a hot car but didn't expect full on M. 👍
All in all this sort of car is super cool to me and it's really just that silly sound/exhaust system that pulls it away from sub zero.
Typical "rich jerk who doesn't know how to drive or what he's driving" stereotypes don't really bother me.

 

[CarBastard]

Let's not become what we complain about... I assure you there are many people out there who are very rich and earned it. 👍

I won't get too deep in discussing that, because you may be right. But up to what I've lived and because of where I've lived, you're not. Still, I'll grant you that things may be much different where you guys live, definitely diferent conditions, so I won't get off=topic here and will just agree to disagree 👍.

That said, I'm done with the W&N thing for now...

I got that memo a good while ago and I encourage other members to do the same thing. Maybe if we just don't pay attention to his ramblings...

 

[Azuremen]

@Cano Those BMW turbo engines really have to be experienced. Even the 35i feels fast as hell with a rated 300 horses.

I bet if @White & Nerdy got a ride in a turbo bimmer (even a four banger 328) his opinion would change.

Agreed. Modern turbos, for the most part, are so smoothly integrated that I don't notice any real lag. Which is a huge change from the mid 2000's era Subarus I drove around that displayed the classic lag issue. Meanwhile, any #35i feels like a rocket launched from a slingshot.

 

[White & Nerdy]

@Cano Fine, but I still wouldn't call factory turbos cool. And anywhere close to sea level, I'd probably not go with them anyway.

@Zenith You got me, but I'm pretty sure you actually know very well what I'm getting at.

RE: peak oil & whatever: let me just ask this, do you realize how long people have been screaming about oil shortage? It's apparently been happening, on and off, since the 1930s at least. What makes you so sure this time it's for real when before it never really was?

 

[Kent]

@...

edit:
I can't do this any more. Sorry but I just can't, the bias here is something I don't think I can ever change.

 

[Eric Demory]

I've grown quite a liking to it when participating in the GT6 drift trials yesterday. This M5 is cool enough to be taken out of my garage and out on the track often.

 

[Azuremen]

RE: peak oil & whatever: let me just ask this, do you realize how long people have been screaming about oil shortage? It's apparently been happening, on and off, since the 1930s at least. What makes you so sure this time it's for real when before it never really was?

Please get an education and then come back on this topic, the depth of your ignorance is unfathomable currently.

 

[niky]

@Cano that's why I differentiated between factory and aftermarket turbos. Aftermarket installations are usually there for the express purpose of adding more speed, while factory turbos are now usually there to act as prosthetic displacement so the car can have a relatively normal amount of power while pleasing the hippies and the people who'd rather spend money on cable TV than gasoline. Which would be one thing if more than 1% of cable channels were actually worth watching, but they aren't.

Have you ever driven an aftermarket turbocharged car?

On 99% of aftermarket installs on naturally aspirated motors, the turbocharger is prosthetic displacement. There specifically because the owner is too cheap or stubborn to swap out their motor or car for a better one. A decision they reconsider after the fourth or fifth specification change, where they swap out the injectors/turbine/intercooler/etcetera because it's the wrong size or capacity for the installation.

A decision they begin to rue after they blow the piston rings and have to rebuild the bottom end to take the extra power.

A decision they fully regret when their turbocharged motor, with a fully built bottom end and nearly $15k worth of hardware loses to a factory-turbocharged Subaru STI with bolt-ons and a retune. After which, good-bye goes the sputtering, overheating, finicky, laggy, unreliable project car, traded in for a downpayment on a factory turbocharged car that's much, much faster.

-

A turbocharged naturally aspirated motor is never, ever ever* going to be as fast or as good as a comparable motor built to be factory turbocharged in the first place.

It's fun to experiment, mind you, but to pretend that these Frankensteins can work anywhere near as well as a factory job without pouring enough money in the car to buy and modify the factory turbo car in the first place is more than just a bit daft.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Given the icy nature of his home state, what if it was an igloo instead?
Wait no. Then he would give a damn about emissions.

You know that cave the abominable snowman lived in in the Rudolph Christmas movie...basically what @Cano is talking about.

Is pulling all of his entire argument straight out of his own ass not enough for you?

If only I could do that in the classes @Zenith just said, that I've actually taken or have to take this up coming semester. Oh how I wish I could live the easy life as a grocery aisle clerk by day, and pseudo car aficionado by night.

 

[Kent]

Just going to leave this here

I didn't notice this post earlier.
Awesome demonstration. 👍
At a standstill for quick revving the oldest sounds awesome. However, something tells me in full acceleration over more than a moment or two the newest will sound the best (though the middle has a good fighting chance).
Definitely a video link worthy of a "like" on your post.

 

[SVT Cobra GT]

I've always thought M5s were cool. Until they winded up being the douchebag's vehicle of choice to ferry his douchebag kids around with.

This M5 is just about falling into the hands of said douchebags, however there aren't many of them driving these yet. So it's a meh.

 

[Tyger]

So very Meh for me. Since the late 90s* BMWs have been so homegenised and bland. Admittedly well-engineered and probably fun to drive (so perhaps I would revise my opinion when I drive one) but very much "safe" cars for folks who prefer to discuss numbers (E-this and that) rather than cars that have soul and dare to upset the applecart. My opinion is pretty much the same regarding Audi, Mercedes and to some extent Porsche.


*Notable exceptions being the Z4, which I like a lot, and the 8 series, though that was introduced in '88

 

[Roger the Horse]

Today I learnt that cable TV is for hippies.

 

[Cano]

@Cano Fine, but I still wouldn't call factory turbos cool. And anywhere close to sea level, I'd probably not go with them anyway.

Except you do. You want turbos anywhere. A turbo engine will really wake up at sea-level altitude. Less noticeable than a N/A engine of course, but it will feel stronger.

Really, your view of turbocharging is so archaic you'd say we're still dealing with the "Turbo Rocket Fluid" stuff for the 60s Oldsmobile turbo mill.

Have you ever driven an aftermarket turbocharged car?

On 99% of aftermarket installs on naturally aspirated motors, the turbocharger is prosthetic displacement. There specifically because the owner is too cheap or stubborn to swap out their motor or car for a better one. A decision they reconsider after the fourth or fifth specification change, where they swap out the injectors/turbine/intercooler/etcetera because it's the wrong size or capacity for the installation.

A decision they begin to rue after they blow the piston rings and have to rebuild the bottom end to take the extra power.

A decision they fully regret when their turbocharged motor, with a fully built bottom end and nearly $15k worth of hardware loses to a factory-turbocharged Subaru STI with bolt-ons and a retune. After which, good-bye goes the sputtering, overheating, finicky, laggy, unreliable project car, traded in for a downpayment on a factory turbocharged car that's much, much faster.

-

A turbocharged naturally aspirated motor is never, ever ever* going to be as fast or as good as a comparable motor built to be factory turbocharged in the first place.

It's fun to experiment, mind you, but to pretend that these Frankensteins can work anywhere near as well as a factory job without pouring enough money in the car to buy and modify the factory turbo car in the first place is more than just a bit daft.

Well, that is not always the case, specially in the more recent years with V8 engines, and a select crop of smaller engines (as I'm sure you're aware, being a Honda fan ), the aftermarket for such stuff is so developed now that single and twins kits are basically almost a bolt on now and you just need a capable tuner to dial them in.

In custom-custom-really custom applications, though, you're right. If there is not much aftermarket support for an engine it will be a lot more difficult to make it work well withouth having to basically recreate the whole engine, specially if you really want to extract power out of it.