GTP Cool Wall: Dodge Dart GT

[Slash]

I never understood the thought that somehow everything that was built in the 60's and 70's is automatically an old school muscle car....

It's not. There is a lsarge amount of cars that weren't muscle cars. But most that had large V8s are generally considered to be.

 

[White & Nerdy]

Yes, and the other thing is that, even if they weren't that fast stock (a lot of them ended up being so when the muscle car craze really hit in the latter half of the '60s), you could easily upgrade them or just shove a bigger engine in them. The new cars are harder to work on, harder to do engine swaps on, and you have pollution laws trolling you.

 

[Slash]

Yes, and the other thing is that, even if they weren't that fast stock (a lot of them ended up being so when the muscle car craze really hit in the latter half of the '60s), you could easily upgrade them or just shove a bigger engine in them. The new cars are harder to work on, harder to do engine swaps on, and you have pollution laws trolling you.

This is exactly why this new car gets a lot of hate.

 

[Joey D]

The only people hating on this car because of its engine size are people who don't have a clue about cars. There's no reason a car like this needs to have a larger engine or even have the ability to swap the engine. It's made to transport people while getting good fuel economy. If you want a fast Dodge you're probably not going to be buying their economy car.

 

[White & Nerdy]

Depends. Remember the whole point of a muscle car, back in the 60's, was "go fast for not much money", but it seems such a design philosophy is difficult to find these days. Just because someone is interested in cars and the fast driving thereof, doesn't mean they're automatically able to afford a traditional "performance" car. Unfortunately, the industry doesn't seem interested in non-affluent enthusiasts.

I mean, poor folks and teenagers don't need choices, right? They all care about comfort and sophistication and will never want to drive quickly, right?

Maybe I really am the last person on Earth for whom comfort and technical sophistication are non-issues, I don't know.

 

[Tornado]

I'm still not seeing how the Dart was a muscle car in the first place for that argument to apply.

 

[Joey D]

I mean, poor folks and teenagers don't need choices, right? They all care about comfort and sophistication and will never want to drive quickly, right?

There are a ton of reasonably priced performance cars on the market: the Fiesta and Focus ST, the V6 Mustang, V6 Camaro, Hyundai Genesis, VW GTI and GLI, MINI Cooper S, and that's just to name a few off the top of my head. You can also pick up a ton of cars that are less than 3 years old that will give you all the comforts of something new while not breaking the bank.

So ya don't play "there's no choices" card because it's just wrong. Sure there might not be anything you like, but I find there's not a whole lot you really like in the first place.

Maybe I really am the last person on Earth for whom comfort and technical sophistication are non-issues, I don't know.

People who tend to buy new cars care about that stuff, that's why companies build cars while taking both into consideration.

I'm still not seeing how the Dart was a muscle car in the first place for that argument to apply.

I agree. +1.

 

[Northstar]

Depends. Remember the whole point of a muscle car, back in the 60's, was "go fast for not much money", but it seems such a design philosophy is difficult to find these days. Just because someone is interested in cars and the fast driving thereof, doesn't mean they're automatically able to afford a traditional "performance" car. Unfortunately, the industry doesn't seem interested in non-affluent enthusiasts.

I mean, poor folks and teenagers don't need choices, right? They all care about comfort and sophistication and will never want to drive quickly, right?

Maybe I really am the last person on Earth for whom comfort and technical sophistication are non-issues, I don't know.

Here's the thing, from what I could find a '76 Dart Sport cost $4,825, which would be $19,753 today. As Joey pointed out, there are quite a few options in that range for sportier cars.

 

[White & Nerdy]

I'm still not seeing how the Dart was a muscle car in the first place for that argument to apply.

Except for the 63-66 generation, the Dart was always available with a V8 over 300ci, and those 63-66 versions could probably take a much larger engine anyway. In '67, the Dart GTS came along, and various Darts were eventually available with the Hemi and 440 engines.

 

[BKGlover]

Mildly interesting tidbit, the first 'Charger' was the 1965 Dodge Dart Charger.

 

[Tornado]

Except for the 63-66 generation, the Dart was always available with a V8 over 300ci, and those 63-66 versions could probably take a much larger engine anyway.

A 318 with barely over 200 horsepower was not a muscle car engine. It was just the slightly more powerful engine available over the straight 6. The 63-66 also were limited by a narrow engine bay from accepting larger engines just like the earlier Mustangs were.

In '67, the Dart GTS came along, and various Darts were eventually available with the Hemi and 440 engines.

And the GTS was only available for a little over 2 years, then was replaced by the Swinger 340 for one year, then was discontinued entirely so as not to compete with the Challenger; and replaced by a rebadged Plymouth Duster. The Dart, meanwhile, was sold from 1963 to 1976 in the same model position with sales overwhelmingly made up of six cylinder engines. It's a bit like saying that the W-Body Impala sold from 1999-2013 will go down in history as a muscle car because GM put a V8 in it from 2006-2009.


The Hemi and 440 Darts were also never available outside of special order, hand-built drag cars that Dodge and Hurst put together for the super stock class and weren't even streetable; so they have as much to do with the provenance of the regular Dart as the Plymouth Superbirds had to do with the Road Runner (except the Road Runner at least was purposely done up to be a muscle car).

 

[Slash]

The fact is that they were factory installed as options therefore it qualifies as a muscle car in my book, end of discussion.


Unless of of course you want to argue that a Dodge Challenger wasn't a muscle/pony car either.

 

[Tornado]

The fact is that they were factory installed as options therefore it qualifies as a muscle car in my book, end of discussion.

The fact that what were factory installed?

Unless of of course you want to argue that a Dodge Challenger wasn't a muscle/pony car either.

The Challenger was offered from the start with all of the engines Chrysler had at the time including the Hemi and the 440, and were developed specifically to respond to the Camaro and Mustang, so no. Not the same thing as the Dart.

 

[Slash]

The fact that what were factory installed?


The Challenger was offered from the start with all of the engines Chrysler had at the time including the Hemi and the 440, and were developed specifically to respond to the Camaro and Mustang, so no. Not the same thing as the Dart.

The fact that big fat V8's were installed into the cars and had some performance models.

I never said they were the same thing.

 

[Tornado]

The fact that big fat V8's were installed into the cars and had some performance models.

They were not. The Hemi and 440 Darts were Dart GTS models shipped sans engine (and the Hemi Darts also didn't have front fenders or a hood, since custom fiberglass pieces were installed instead after the fact) to Hurst to be converted to accept the Hemi and 440.

I never said they were the same thing.

Then what was the point behind asking if I was going to argue the Challenger was not a muscle car if it is irrelevant to what the Dart was?

 

[Slash]

They were not. The Hemi and 440 Darts were Dart GTS models shipped sans engine (and the Hemi Darts also didn't have front fenders or a hood, since custom fiberglass pieces were installed instead after the fact) to Hurst to be converted to accept the Hemi and 440.


Then what was the point behind asking if I was going to argue the Challenger was not a muscle car if it is irrelevant to what the Dart was?

I was merely saying both cars used big engines etc and had performance options with 6 cyls as base models. Both to me are muscle cars with different designs.

 

[White & Nerdy]

Exactly. The 318 as installed in the Dart wasn't much, but it could sort of be worked with, and the simple fact is, the 67-up models did could accept much larger engines that could definitely be worked with.

The 2.4 in this can also apparently display some potential, though I still hate I4 engines in general and big power from a turbo I4 is usually pretty non-linear. Depress throttle, lag, lag, lag, lag, BOOM POWER AND ACCELERATION, shift, lag, repeat. See: Evo FQ400.

Also, FWD. It's terrible. Fact.

 

[xXKingJoshXx]

Also, FWD. It's terrible. Fact. Opinion.

Ftfy.

 

[Tornado]

I was merely saying both cars used big engines etc and had performance options with 6 cyls as base models. Both to me are muscle cars with different designs.

So how about the other 9 years the Dart was on sale? How about the Dart's position as Dodge's entry level economy car for the entirety of it's life in their model range? The Challenger was sold for four years, and the entire time it was sold as a performance car to compete with GM's equivalent performance cars even after the big engines were dropped. The Dart was sold for 13 years, only three of those had any real performance options, and Dodge went out of their way to keep from marketing it as a performance car after the Challenger came out by cancelling the performance trim level and moving it to a new model.

Exactly. The 318 as installed in the Dart wasn't much, but it could sort of be worked with, and the simple fact is, the 67-up models did could accept much larger engines that could definitely be worked with.

"You could put something else in it" doesn't make it a muscle car, and the 318 still wasn't a performance engine. Something as lowly as the Ford Fairmont (cheap, entry level sedan that will easily accept a 460 from the T-Bird or LTD; and the stock 302 is relatively sprightly) is a muscle car under those criteria.

The 2.4 in this can also apparently display some potential

The 2.4 in the Dart isn't the same 2.4 that was in the Neon SRT-4.

 

[Doog]

I agree. +1.

Anyways, the Dart was a car that had a lot of hype to live up to. It was going to be derived from desirable Alfa Romeo underpinnings, and some were counting on it to be a successor to the original Dodge Neon. There were even rumors of a nine speed transmission in the works (what happened to that?). Ultimately the car fell a little short of the expectations. It was too big, too ungainly and not a stellar performer like everyone hoped. But still, it's not a bad car. It doesn't look too bad, the interior looks pretty comfy and the engine options are nothing to sneeze at. But the car really did fall short, I mean look at how many Darts you see on the road versus Cruzes and Focuses. Albeit it's not quite fair since the former two have been on sale a bit longer, but I don't think I've seen more than ten Darts. This, combined with the fact that nothing about is too spectacular nets it a rating of meh.

 

[Slash]

So how about the other 9 years the Dart was on sale? How about the Dart's position as Dodge's entry level economy car for the entirety of it's life in their model range? The Challenger was sold for four years, and the entire time it was sold as a performance car to compete with GM's equivalent performance cars even after the big engines were dropped. The Dart was sold for 13 years, only three of those had any real performance options, and Dodge went out of their way to keep from marketing it as a performance car after the Challenger came out by cancelling the performance trim level and moving it to a new model.

When they stopped offering the car with a large V8 was when it died. May I remind you the very first generation the car was offered, it had 1 slant 6 option and 3 other V8 options...sounds familiar to many other muscle cars of the era. The second gen was the same way, only the 383 wasn't the biggest engine, it was now the 413. The third generation held back a bit, then the 4th they let it go, and this is the one I think we are refering to. It had 3 slant 6 options, and not 1, not 2, but 8, yes, eight V8 options, ranging from the 273 of last gen all the way to a 440 (2 of those being different variations of a 440). That sounds pretty qualified if you ask me. Don't forget the Demon 340 either, that started as a Dart and was named "Dart Demon". You can argue the fact all day that if was built for economy but a car with 8 V8 options and a couple 6s hardly sounds economy based.

Oh, but that's not a muscle car.

 

[Cano]

It's not a muscle car. It's not even a pony car as the Mustang or Camaro, it's a economy car with some hot versions to srpuce up the line, just like every other manufacturer in the 60s and 70s offered. Having a V8 engine, doesn't matter how big, doesn't detter from the fact that the thing was Mopar's entry level compact car. I don't see what's so difficult to grasp, really.

And this comes form one of this site's greatest fans of these cars. I'm glad I have my facts straight, though.

 

[Slash]

Maybe not then, but most muscle car fans I know will agree with me and consider it a muscle car themselves.

 

[Tornado]

When they stopped offering the car with a large V8 was when it died.

So only the two years the 383 was available, then?

May I remind you the very first generation the car was offered, it had 1 slant 6 option and 3 other V8 options...sounds familiar to many other muscle cars of the era.

You mean that full sized Dodge sedan? Which had smaller engines delivering less power than the sporty full sized Dodge sedans, in particular the D-500 and the Chrysler 300? Because the Dodge Dart was a regular (entry level) full sized sedan and in the 1960s all full sized sedans came with a variety of V8 engine options so that in itself isn't notable.

The second gen was the same way, only the 383 wasn't the biggest engine, it was now the 413.

The Dart Ramcharger was another limited production car that Dodge put together at the last minute to get into Superstock competition because it was the lightest car available.

You're also forgetting that the 1962 Dart was just a trim level (the entry level one) for Dodge's disastrous intermediate B-Body, which it shared with the 1962 Polara and a couple others; and that all of them could easily be had with the 413 and it was initially only the base Dart that was left out, and the Polara even came standard with a big V8 (as opposed to the straight 6 the Dart made due with).

It had 3 slant 6 options, and not 1, not 2, but 8, yes, eight V8 options, ranging from the 273 of last gen all the way to a 440 (2 of those being different variations of a 440).

So... skimming the Wikipedia article, then. However the Dart never had anything bigger than a 383 available as a regular production option for street use (and only for two full years because it sold so poorly), as I already said; and that the 360 was nothing more than the cheaper and lower powered replacement for the 340 when the at-that-point already smog strangled 340 stopped being able to pass emissions in the early-70s.

That sounds pretty qualified if you ask me. Don't forget the Demon 340 either, that started as a Dart and was named "Dart Demon".

I didn't forget the Demon 340. That would be the car that Dodge used to purposely strip the Dodge Dart of the performance model it had up to that point. Like... have you even been reading my posts?

Oh, but that's not a muscle car.

That looks like a rebadged Plymouth Duster that was purposely badged as the "Dodge Demon" instead of being called "Dodge Dart;" and was forced to switch back just in time to get on the personal coupe trend that was all the rage in the mid 70s.

 

[BKGlover]

ENOUGH!

We are here for the new Dart, not to discuss the old ones that have no relation to it. If you want to have a fight over the old ones, take it outside or make a nomination.

On a related note, Why is it that small cars on the Cool Wall draw battle lines? The Ford StreetKa thread actually had to be locked up to stop that flame war.

 

[Joel]

Because some people think that car manufacturers responding to market forces emphasizing fuel economy and refinement over displacement and a subjective idea of what's "manly" is the work of Satan.

 

[Wolfe]

To reiterate what Noob616 said, small cars are for girls. Obviously.
If a certain someone mentions diminuitive equines I'm going to report them.

 

[Slash]

ENOUGH!

We are here for the new Dart, not to discuss the old ones that have no relation to it. If you want to have a fight over the old ones, take it outside or make a nomination.

On a related note, Why is it that small cars on the Cool Wall draw battle lines? The Ford StreetKa thread actually had to be locked up to stop that flame war.

Agreed, I'l drop it. It's not getting anywhere anyways

 

[Antonisbob]

Ftfy.

No, it's a fact. EVERY car has it, it's not 'cool' or anything. So lame. The only FWD car's that where nice where the '60s/'70s Toronodo and El Dorado because the uniqueness of the drive train layout (At the time), and massive V8s spinning those front tires.

Man I love how this thread got so sidetracked as to whether or not the Dart was a muscle car. Well I mean... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjBWdTv0kvs it's named Dart, darts move fast, right?

It's funny how literally all my car guy friends say this new one is a piece and that it's not a real Dart. Including myself. It's just not cool.

 

[White & Nerdy]

I suppose my beef with this car and the "not a real Dart" sentiment goes back to what someone said about the price of the '76 model, which adjusts to about $19,000 when inflation is factored in. At the price/size class inhabited by these cars, I don't really care about equipment. At $20K, a car can have manual crank windows for all I care.