GTP WRS-Online : Special VI - Motegi Mixed Class Enduro - Aug 5

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I'm the same, helpless without a tune and waiting for the generosity of others. My goal is also to start tuning myself, but I've been saying that since the Spa Enduro.:dunce: I was reading Ramon's thread in the TT forum earlier. Does most of what he wrote apply to online settings or do we throw all that info out when it comes to online? I know for sure ride height info applies to offline only.

Are you talking a this notes https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=242590 on tuning? I think it works because I shed about a second off my lap time based on his notes on spring rates and camber. I just read it yesterday so didn't have too much time to play with the tune before quali though. But I would say it works online as well.
 
I use Ramon's guide exclusively now 👍 - with extra tips from other D1 drivers (Wes, Twissy, CSLACR and Chris) that I've remembered along the way.
The ride height seems to make more sense online (no max/min stuff - most of my cars are even online - eg. -15/-15) but the rest seems to transfer evenly to either on or offline.

Since I've started tuning myself (starting with the Audi R10) I leave the dampers as-is and adjust the toe and LSD to control the car better. Then I add minor tweaks to the suspension as per Ramon's guide to make the car 'feel' the way I like.
So far it has worked out really, really well 👍

I can post a tune a bit later to demonstrate the process (stock vs. my tune and how I got there)- currently my R8 LMP tune is really, really close to stock dampers and ARB IIRC.

Are you talking a this notes https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=242590 on tuning? I think it works because I shed about a second off my lap time based on his notes on spring rates and camber. I just read it yesterday so didn't have too much time to play with the tune before quali though. But I would say it works online as well.
Yes, that's the one 👍
 
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Nice tune Kev, I think I understand some of the numbers on there except for the dampers. Why are they so low on your tune. I'm trying to wrap my head around tuning so next time I know how to tweak the setup myself instead of waiting for someone post on here. Cheers

The rumble strips on this track have a tendency to kick the car around and spin it, but they are very useful to drive on in the first 2 turn complexes (Up until T1), and the very last chicane. The softer Dampers allow you to drive on the rubles with confidence. Since the track does not have much elevation change, and what is there is gradual, it does not cause any issues with the car bottoming out, etc. The stiffer springs and ARB's keep the car from rolling around a lot, and the dampers allow for finer movement of the wheels without a wild spin.

I'm the same, helpless without a tune and waiting for the generosity of others. My goal is also to start tuning myself, but I've been saying that since the Spa Enduro.:dunce: I was reading Ramon's thread in the TT forum earlier. Does most of what he wrote apply to online settings or do we throw all that info out when it comes to online? I know for sure ride height info applies to offline only.

I was nearly useless at tuning on Prologue, with the occasional lucky tune that worked for people to be fast, but normally tunes that were safe but slow. I seem to have found my niche on GT5. It started with the NASCAR at Indy week in WRS, when I had a tune that Stotty was able to make small tweaks to in order to set a fast time. That incidentally is the week the Reverse Ride Height issue came into broad public discussion. The next sort of A-Ha that I had was the week with the Civic RM at Deep Forest Reverse, when I learned about the whole Min/Max thing for FF cars. Another week I learned a lot was in the Class C Merc at Le Sarthe, when I learned more about transmission tuning and setting close ratios.

With some of that knowledge in hand, I've learned how to tweak the car to do what I'd like it to. I would like to think I get better with every tune I build, where I can now set up a car with an online tune in an hour. :sly:
 
Tuning in an hour would be awesome, and hearing makes me want to do it even more. I think the fear/thing that has kept me from doing it is thinking with so many adjustable figures I will spend hours just trying to get it close to workable. The other thing is when you search for tunes there are so many variations in settings it makes me wonder if there is any rhyme or reason to GT tunes or if it's a shot in the dark. One person will have really low ARB numbers and the next will have opposite. So confusing but I guess the only way to really learn is just do it.
 
Tuning in an hour would be awesome, and hearing makes me want to do it even more. I think the fear/thing that has kept me from doing it is thinking with so many adjustable figures I will spend hours just trying to get it close to workable. The other thing is when you search for tunes there are so many variations in settings it makes me wonder if there is any rhyme or reason to GT tunes or if it's a shot in the dark. One person will have really low ARB numbers and the next will have opposite. So confusing but I guess the only way to really learn is just do it.

I think it's more a matter of knowing what settings have a dramatic effect on the car, and which have a minimal effect.

Also, which settings are reasonable at default, and which are way off base.

My priorities when starting a tune -

1. Set up a reasonable transmission for the track. You can do more for your times and driveability of the car with this than any other setting. I like to do it on Route X now that we have it, which also allows me to optimize my shift point once the transmission is done.

2. Set the LSD to a better default number, such as 10/20/10. That is a more realistic starting point than the numbers PD give you.

3. Get rid of that silly positive rear toe. Set it to 0.

4. Set better camber numbers. I normally start with 1.5-2.0 on the front and 0.5-1.0 on the rear. Adjust from there.

Once that's done, I normally start with ride height. If it's an offline tune, just Max front/Min rear to start and see if it's driveable. If not, I normally lower the front until it is. Online, try raising it to max on both ends and min on both ends, to see how each affects the car, which should guide you on which way to go with it. Some cars like to be raised up, some lowered ,some are great at 0/0 online.

Next step for me is spring rates. If the car is too oversteery, stiffer rear with softer front helps. The opposite if the car is too understeery.

Finally I fine tune dampers, ARB and Toe. If the car pushes coming out of corners, set some negative rear toe. If it wants to come around, set some positive rear toe. Start with .10 and teak up or down from there.

Dampers and ARB are admittedly a bit of a dark art. But I like to just do max on one end and min on the other with ARB to understand the behavior it creates, and then do the opposite to understand that behavior. You are rarely going to set the car with those numbers, but it lets you understand how it influences the car.

Dampers are more about how the car reacts to rapid changes in elevation or other conditions. Some tracks, the settings don't matter, others they do. I usually try to make the end of the car that's stiffer on springs stiffer on damps, and vice versa, but that will not always be what's needed.

Once all that's done, smaller tweaks to LSD, camber, toe, spring rates, dampers, ARB. Any of that. Just make sure you affect ONE setting at a time, and see how it impacts your time over the course of a lap or 2. Fine tuning takes a lot more time than the initial tune.
 
Great post:tup:

I'm jumping in the loung now if anyone cares to join.
 
The other thing is when you search for tunes there are so many variations in settings it makes me wonder if there is any rhyme or reason to GT tunes or if it's a shot in the dark.

I think a lot of it is down to the driver's, I normally always struggle with priano's online tunes and need to make a lot of adjustments, were as Kevin's online tunes always seem to work well for me with a few minor adjustments.
 
Well i did the qualifier, sent in my times and wait to get in the list.
I thank you for your great support, and this sort of online racing deserves a big respect how you set up the events!!!!

Gr.Henk
 
Well i did the qualifier, sent in my times and wait to get in the list.
I thank you for your great support, and this sort of online racing deserves a big respect how you set up the events!!!!

Gr.Henk

Great Henk. We look forward to you racing with us once your submission is processed!
 
I put together an example/instructional driver change video for those that may be new to our procedure. For this example, the required wait time is 5:00 which is the standard for the enduro, but will vary for support races by class.


The video fast forwards though the 5 minute wait so it looks fast, but you have enough time to get up, grab a drink, pet the dog and stretch your legs. Make sure to give yourself a good buffer and return 30 seconds or so before your target exit time.

Hope this helps. Feedback welcome.
 
Here's the (my) step by step for the PS '05 LMP (680 HP):
stock:
0/0
13.8/14.8
8/8
8/8
6/6

0.5/0.5
0.00/0.20

10/40/20
bb-5/5

Before I run any car I set the toe to 0.00/0.00, the camber to 1.5/1.0 and in this case dropped the car to -15/-15 (general ride height common to most of my LMP tunes).

The first thing I found (as with almost all LMP's) is that pressing the gas at all can be disatrous - Spin city. But I wanted to find out how well the car is balanced, not how it responds to the throttle input so I ran without using gears 1 and 2 for a couple of laps to see how it took the corners.
After the 2 lap try, it was obvious the LSD needed adjusting first to make driving the car at all possible when accelerating. Under deceleration the car turned fine and didn't lose traction. Changed LSD to ~10/10/20. (normally i change at 10 pt. intervals, but LMP's are.... special).
** The car would lose traction and oversteer as I released the brake pedal so I changed the BB to 6/5. The way I determine if the brakes or LSD are to blame for the loss of traction is to slow down well before the corner to about apex speed. If the car can complete the turn properly without using the brakes then the LSD is not the problem and the brakes get adjusted so the rear has less.

Ran a couple more laps, and it was much better but it wasn't turning as fast as I wanted. Set top speed only using the final gear (no tranny trick yet), and moved on to fine tuning.
Then using Ramon's guide:
Changed springs to 14.8 / 14.8 (evens up the car to determine steering characteristics)
Changed Dampers to:
8/8 - same as before actually
6/6 - as per Ramon's guide
And changed rear toe to -0.15 (my standard rear toe starting point now)
After a few more laps, I was sure I was getting somewhere ;)

I found the car was faster through the turns at -20/-20, so I raised the springs a touch to compensate (16/16).
However, the grip was a bit off and the car was understeering so I raised the front camber to 2.5 to see how it would affect the car now. It worked really well (I also tried 3.0, but it was too much - and 2.0 was not enough).

At this point knew I was pretty close to the tune I wanted as it took the turns really well, and really needed to be loosened up a bit more than anything.
Changed rear toe to -0.20 and it was still fine (not over turning) so I changed it to -0.25.
LSD was changed to 8/8/20 to help with rears spinning when exiting slower corners and turn 2.
That made acellerating out of turns 2 and 4 a bit understeery so changed the front toe to +0.05 and changed springs to 16.5/15.5.
As with before, the tuning changes worked, and more importantly worked as expected - that never used to happen with my tuning tests before Ramon added his guide. I was really guessing a lot before and rarely had my expectations match results.

From there, slight adjustments followed until I ended up here for my quali tune:
-20/-20
16.5/15.5
8/8
7/6 - added a bit more turning grip
6/4 - same

2.5/1.2 - raising to 1.2 made the car 'feel' better in the T2 chicane and turn 3.
+0.08/-0.25

6/7/22 - rear grip entering turns was never an issue, acel was the only problem.
bb 7/6 ABS 1

PB 1'40.217, Quali'd at 1'40.533 (second hot lap was .557)
BTW - the only changes I plan to make at all for the race (to make the tune 'safer' for 2+ hours and easier on tires) is to change the LSD and Toe to ~:
6/5/22 (less likely to spin rears under acel)
0.05 / -0.20 (less likely to oversteer - esp. in the final chicane)
BB will probably change to 7/5 ABS 10 but I tend to change rear bias and ABS during the race as tires wear.

The tranny wasn't overly specific in this one, just use whatever variation of the tranny trick you like.

When I setup the LMS for the event in the practice lobby it took all of ~30 minutes to get a 1.49.6xx from a scratch tune using the same principles and Ramon's tips.

As mentioned by Hasslemoff, it really does come down to the driver as fine tuning goes. I for one cannot drive Praiano's tunes, but Tim tends to really like them and we are usually separated by .0xx in what ever we run.
As you get used to tuning for yourself, you can control the aspects of your tuning better and just as importantly - you can re-tune someone else's posted tune to your liking - quickly.
 
Here's the (my) step by step for the PS '05 LMP (680 HP):
stock:
0/0
13.8/14.8
8/8
8/8
6/6

0.5/0.5
0.00/0.20

10/40/20
bb-5/5

Before I run any car I set the toe to 0.00/0.00, the camber to 1.5/1.0 and in this case dropped the car to -15/-15 (general ride height common to most of my LMP tunes).

The first thing I found (as with almost all LMP's) is that pressing the gas at all can be disatrous - Spin city. But I wanted to find out how well the car is balanced, not how it responds to the throttle input so I ran without using gears 1 and 2 for a couple of laps to see how it took the corners.
After the 2 lap try, it was obvious the LSD needed adjusting first to make driving the car at all possible when accelerating. Under deceleration the car turned fine and didn't lose traction. Changed LSD to ~10/10/20. (normally i change at 10 pt. intervals, but LMP's are.... special).
** The car would lose traction and oversteer as I released the brake pedal so I changed the BB to 6/5. The way I determine if the brakes or LSD are to blame for the loss of traction is to slow down well before the corner to about apex speed. If the car can complete the turn properly without using the brakes then the LSD is not the problem and the brakes get adjusted so the rear has less.

Ran a couple more laps, and it was much better but it wasn't turning as fast as I wanted. Set top speed only using the final gear (no tranny trick yet), and moved on to fine tuning.
Then using Ramon's guide:
Changed springs to 14.8 / 14.8 (evens up the car to determine steering characteristics)
Changed Dampers to:
8/8 - same as before actually
6/6 - as per Ramon's guide
And changed rear toe to -0.15 (my standard rear toe starting point now)
After a few more laps, I was sure I was getting somewhere ;)

I found the car was faster through the turns at -20/-20, so I raised the springs a touch to compensate (16/16).
However, the grip was a bit off and the car was understeering so I raised the front camber to 2.5 to see how it would affect the car now. It worked really well (I also tried 3.0, but it was too much - and 2.0 was not enough).

At this point knew I was pretty close to the tune I wanted as it took the turns really well, and really needed to be loosened up a bit more than anything.
Changed rear toe to -0.20 and it was still fine (not over turning) so I changed it to -0.25.
LSD was changed to 8/8/20 to help with rears spinning when exiting slower corners and turn 2.
That made acellerating out of turns 2 and 4 a bit understeery so changed the front toe to +0.05 and changed springs to 16.5/15.5.
As with before, the tuning changes worked, and more importantly worked as expected - that never used to happen with my tuning tests before Ramon added his guide. I was really guessing a lot before and rarely had my expectations match results.

From there, slight adjustments followed until I ended up here for my quali tune:
-20/-20
16.5/15.5
8/8
7/6 - added a bit more turning grip
6/4 - same

2.5/1.2 - raising to 1.2 made the car 'feel' better in the T2 chicane and turn 3.
+0.08/-0.25

6/7/22 - rear grip entering turns was never an issue, acel was the only problem.
bb 7/6 ABS 1

PB 1'40.217, Quali'd at 1'40.533 (second hot lap was .557)
BTW - the only changes I plan to make at all for the race (to make the tune 'safer' for 2+ hours and easier on tires) is to change the LSD and Toe to ~:
6/5/22 (less likely to spin rears under acel)
0.05 / -0.20 (less likely to oversteer - esp. in the final chicane)
BB will probably change to 7/5 ABS 10 but I tend to change rear bias and ABS during the race as tires wear.

The tranny wasn't overly specific in this one, just use whatever variation of the tranny trick you like.

When I setup the LMS for the event in the practice lobby it took all of ~30 minutes to get a 1.49.6xx from a scratch tune using the same principles and Ramon's tips.

As mentioned by Hasslemoff, it really does come down to the driver as fine tuning goes. I for one cannot drive Praiano's tunes, but Tim tends to really like them and we are usually separated by .0xx in what ever we run.
As you get used to tuning for yourself, you can control the aspects of your tuning better and just as importantly - you can re-tune someone else's posted tune to your liking - quickly.

Thanks for sharing Hydro 👍 fantastic guide
Will have to try this.
 
hasslemoff
Going in lounge for some practice for a while if anyone would like to join.

Sorry Twissy last night got DC'd and called it a night.

Im using Praiano63 tune with a few tweeks for the R8 LMS Race Car (Team PlayStation) '09 if anyone wants to have a try with it, I got a 49.3 with it up to now.

Setup:

Max aero

Suspension
-28/-17
16.8/18.0
8/8
7/5
6/5
1.8/1.6
-0.20/-0.02

LSD
8/24/11

Brakes
3/1
ABS 5

Transmission

I've messed around with the tranny a bit so I dont if you will get the exact figures.

I think I took max speed to 124 first then lowered final gear to 2.257. Then alter the gears individual.

1st: 4.959
2nd: 3.647
3rd: 2.940
4th: 2.440
5th: 2.054
6th: 1.799
Final: 2.257

Max speed in top right corner 183mph

Hope it helps.

Hasslemoff Are u still using this tune ? Thats what I was struggling to type in the lounge, I think hassle isn't an allowed word, lol
 
Lounge is open for NA/East practice.

For those of you taking part in or both support races tomorrow the details post for those races have been updated with final details. Key Facts:
  • Race will be set to 31 laps: (LMP = 30 race + 1 formation, GT = 29 race + 2 formation)
  • GT cars will leave grid first and being first formation lap. LMP will follow and park after turn 2 to allow GT to lap them once.
  • GT cars will continue onto a 2nd formation lap and lap the LMP cars.
  • LMP will form up in staggered format after all GT cars are past and lap them.
  • LMP should maintain about a 1 sector gap behind GT cars
  • The GT pole sitter will approach the start/finish line at formation lap pace and accelerate to race pace at the timing line.
  • The LMP pole sitter should time the LMP start so that the GT cars are exiting hairpin curve (almost at T4) when the LMP cars accelerate to race pace at the timing line.
  • All cars are required to perform a simulated driver change on their first pit stop (no window, must be on first stop).
  • GT cars must pause for 30 seconds after crew lifts the lollipop.
  • LMP cars must pause for 2 minutes after the crew lifts the lillipop.

The purpose for all these wrinkles is to try and manage the race so the leaders of the two classes converge at the finish of the race. We won't do it the same way for the enduro, but it's a fun twist for the support races and the GT cars get a chance to work with the splits for the races, which won't be very useful for them during the enduro.

Feel free to ask any questions here on the thread. Better here than in the lounge.

At this point is looks like all support races will take place in the main lounge with mics enabled. If there happen to be more than 12 that show up we'll move to A and disable mics. Note: The enduro will be held in room A without mics regardless.
 
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For what it's worth:
w-g-e
Car: Audi R8 Race Car Playstation '05
Performance points: 696
Power: 680 BHP
Weight: 950 KG
Power limiter: 100%
Ballast: 0 KG
Aerodynamics: 60/105

Gearing:
Too lazy to find out how I got the numbers.

LSD:
Initial torque: 12
Acceleration sensivity: 9
Braking sensivity: 5

Suspension:
Ride height: -22/-25
Spring rate: 15.0/15.0
Dampers (extension): 9/6
Dampers (compression): 6/9
Anti-roll bars: 6/6
Camber angle: 2.0/2.0
Toe angle: 0.00/-0.00

Brake balance: 4/3
ABS: 10
 
For what it's worth:

Thanks Wes 👍 I'll definitely give it a shot in practice tomorrow.
Just looking at your LSD makes me worry about hitting the gas :scared: I'm not sure I have the 'finesse' to pull it off.
 
Good luck this weekend, gents. 👍 I won't see you Sat, but I'm hoping my 75% probability for Sunday works out.

Gotta thank Tim and Marc for another EPIC week-long lead-in to a serious Enduro. :cheers:
 
Gravitron
Good luck this weekend, gents. 👍 I won't see you Sat, but I'm hoping my 75% probability for Sunday works out.

Gotta thank Tim and Marc for another EPIC week-long lead-in to a serious Enduro. :cheers:

:scared: I'm going to be one lonely boy in LMP. At stupid o'clock, no less. Gotta practice passing GTs...

What's this I hear about Moff not being allowed?

images
 
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Good luck to those in the support races and the Enduro on Sunday. 👍

I'm going to be watching Speedy's stream if it's running during the events.
 
Main lounge is open for pre-race practice. Support race #1 starts in 55 minutes.
 
For what it's worth:
w-g-e
Car: Audi R8 Race Car Playstation '05
Performance points: 696
Power: 680 BHP
Weight: 950 KG
Power limiter: 100%
Ballast: 0 KG
Aerodynamics: 60/105

Gearing:
Too lazy to find out how I got the numbers.

LSD:
Initial torque: 10
Acceleration sensivity: 12
Braking sensivity: 5

Suspension:
Ride height: -22/-25
Spring rate: 15.0/15.0
Dampers (extension): 9/6
Dampers (compression): 6/9
Anti-roll bars: 6/6
Camber angle: 2.0/2.0
Toe angle: 0.00/-0.00

Brake balance: 4/3
ABS: 10
'
Changed LSD settings for more even rear inside and outside tire wear.
 
Congratz to Wes and Scott for the class wins today. 👍

Adjusted for formation lap(s) and pit pause:
  • GTP_w-g-e ran the 30 LMP race laps in 51'52.661
  • GTP_mcfizzle ran the 29 GT race laps in 54'47.229
Fast Laps:
  • GTP_w-g-e ran the fastest LMP lap of 1'39.631
  • GTP_jtv90069 ran the fastest GT lap of 1'49.435

Here are the screen grabs showing finishing order and fast laps:
support1_results_screenshot.jpg


support1_results_timing.jpg

As far as pit strategy, I made 3 pits (7 | 8 | 8 | 7). Not sure about everyone else, but I think the majority did 2 stops.
 
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Lol, nice racing line Tim. Did anyone in the GT race take in fuel in the pitstops ?

I did 2 stops
 
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Great racing guys 👍

Had so much fun fighting with mamba and Al, really nice :)
See you in a little bit for the NA race.
 
n0iZe83
Great racing guys 👍

Had so much fun fighting with mamba and Al, really nice :)
See you in a little bit for the NA race.

Yea it was nice, but stressful for me cause I had to defend for 10 laps straight. Did u refuel ?
 
You defended well your position, good job again 👍
No, I did not take any fuel as suggested by the AI.
 
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