GTP_WRS/3D3 GT6 Career Championship

  • Thread starter hasslemoff
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Probably last chance before Sunday to try a few other cars.

Practice room: 1472-4711-0167-3382-2447
 
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Eggstor
I finally completed testing at Grand Valley East and updated the guide. It will most likely be the last update before the Sunday Cup.

Also, I put up a Google Docs spreadsheet of the sub-$20,000 cars I tested.
Click to expand...

Very nice :bowdown:, thanks for all the work you put into this. For those that did not get much testing time, this will be a big help.

I want to say 👍 to @hasslemoff , this event has turned into lots of fun, and it got me to drive cars I would have never thought much about. The practice rooms have been great fun too, tooling around in our slow cars and chatting while we practice. At first I thought everyone would hone in on the fastest cars, but the strategy part of this is coming into play and the decisions are not so straight forward. I am pretty sure I am going with the RX8 '03, going to try and make it work for all 3 series. I needed every bit of the bonus money to buy it though. I will want to test on the higher PP tracks to make sure, before I commit to that car. I loved the TRD Celica, but it is just too fast for Mini Ring, and I don't really want to have to think about backing off while racing with others.
 
Eggstor
Revision history:

1.0 (2 am CDT 10/10/2014) - Began the observations with most of the cars on my list tested at Grand Valley East.
1.01 (9:30 am CDT 10/10/2014) - Began a "super-cheap" (i.e. cars under $16,000) section for those thinking about purchasing a 2nd car before the Amateur Cup.
1.02 (6 pm CDT 10/10/2014) - Finally finished testing at Grand Valley East, added a link to a spreadsheet on the cars under $20,000 I tested, and added a section on "twins".

My testing of 86 cars, 43 of them under $20,000, that are eligible for the Sunday Cup is (almost) complete, enough that I can give some impressions. I'm not the fastest person around (I'm usually a tick or two...or three behind the top times in the time trials), so the faster people might go with a car that's a bit weaker. Also, I ran all of my laps with no electronic aids, so that is something to keep in mind, especially when I get a more-comprehensive table, probably for just the sub-$20,000 cars, up, likely Friday night.

General Sunday Cup observations

The track that I struggled most to get close to the par time was Grand Valley East (GVE). The absolute fastest car I tested there, the 2000 TRD Celica, had a fast time of 1'24.381 on a solo 5-lap run. There isn't a tire drop-off in the limited distance, so with a end-of-the-race fuel load, that might well have dropped under 1'24.0.

I had 12 cars go under 1'25.0, all but 2 front-wheel-drive cars with the other 2 MR cars, and another 12 under 1'25.6, including 2 FR cars and another MR car that is an uncontrollable "twin" of 1 of the top-speed MR cars. All of them are, at least on paper, also solid contenders for the Amateur Cup and a couple even have promise for the Novice Cup.

A properly-executed full-lap draft at GVE is good for shaving a bit under a second off a solo run, so that is something to keep in mind. On the other hand, times seemed to be about a half-second slower in race conditions than in practice conditions (perhaps cautious driving did that).

In limited testing at the other Sunday Cup tracks, both by myself and through others' reports, if a car is within 2-3 seconds of the par time at GVE, it should be right at the par time (or faster) at the other tracks.

If a car ends up faster than par at the other tracks in your testing, you could either use the power limiter to get the PP under 350 or lift more often. Both carry risks; cutting the PP would limit your ability to recover from a mid-lap screw-up and you could forget to bump it back up at GVE, while lifting more often could get you run over in the race.

Starter cars under $20,000

There isn't a car under $20,000 that will top 400 PP with an oil change. That isn't to say there isn't potential for a multi-Cup car on a budget; indeed, the fastest 11 tested can get to at least 386 PP with an oil change.

The class of the field is the 1990s Honda Civics/CR-X's, headed by the 1997 Type R. At 123 horsepower with no oil change and the limiter set at 69.8%, the 1997 Type R posted the 2nd-fastest time in the GVE testing at 1'24.610, and easily broke the par times at not only the other two Sunday Cup tracks, but, once at its maximum of 397 PP/185 hp after an oil change, at Brands Hatch Indy and Suzuka East (2 of the 3 tracks of the Amateur Cup). I'd expect it to struggle in the Novice Cup though.

If you're not a Honda guy, the 1998 Toyota Sprinter Trueno/Corolla Levin BZ-R twins, the 1999 Toyota MR2 Spyder (but decidedly not its "twin" the MR-S S Edition) and the 1997 Mitsubishi Mirage Cyborg ZR all ran within 0.2 seconds of the 1997 Civic Type R, and are, on paper, strong contenders in the Amateur Cup. The 1997 Mitsubishi FTO GR, another on-paper strong contender in the Amateur Cup, was a bit behind at 1'25.756. Other, untested non-Honda strong candidates for a multi-Cup run include the 2002 Mazda Protege/Familia Sedan Sport 20 twins, the 1994 Mitsubishi FTO GR and the 2003 Mazda Axela 23S.

For those who do not like to use front-wheel-drive cars or the mid-engined MR2, there aren't a lot of choices that will keep up at GVE, especially if one wants to use the car in the Amateur Cup. The 1982 Toyota Corolla Levin GT-Apex and the non-premium 1991 Mazda MX-5 J-Limited twins (not the heavier Eunos premium version) were the only FR cars I could get into the 1'25.7 range, though I suspect some of the other MX-5s I didn't have on my test list could also get to that range. None of those can get to 380 PP with an oil change, so they are not likely candidates for the Amateur Cup.

The 1985 Mazda RX-7 GT-Limited twins, which can hit 396 PP/191 hp with an oil change, were almost 2 seconds off the 1997 Civic Type R's pace, at 1'26.561 for the Savanna and 1'26.788 for the RX-7.

I didn't test the highest-PP sub-$20,000 car, the 1988 Nissan Silvia K's (399 PP/180 hp after an oil change, 115 hp at 350 PP without an oil change), but I tested the slightly newer/more-costly/more-powerful 1991 version (400 PP/184 hp after an oil change, 116 hp at 350 PP without an oil change), and it clocked in at 1'27.272. Similarly, I haven't yet fully tested the 1999 Toyota MR2 Spyder/MR-S S Edition twins, which can hit 383 PP/144 hp with an oil change, but a single mid-1'25 lap in Lucas' (@Gravitron's) group test room, with just a bit of tail-wagging, showed a lot of promise.

I finally tested the MR2/MR-S, and because of suspension differences, the MR2 is blindingly quick if a bit unstable at the limit, while the MR-S is completely uncontrollable and thus much slower. In fact, I spun the MR-S twice in testing.

I also put up a Google Docs spreadsheet with the 43 cars I tested, listing the PP, horsepower, weight (in pounds), power-to-weight ratio, whether the car had an oil change or not, the power limiter setting, and the fast lap time at Grand Valley East. The lap times were set in private single-car online tests with the room set to the event regulations and the car set to 0 ABS, 0 traction control and no stability management, and are the best of 5 hot laps.

Starter cars above $20,000

Other than the world-beating tuner TRD Celica and the 2002 Toyota MR2 Spyder (3rd-fastest overall at 1'24.652), money doesn't really buy speed at GVE. The 1998 Honda Integra Type R was the third-fastest expensive car at 1'25.015, and not in the top 12 overall. The 1995, 1999 and 2003 Honda Integra Type R, the 2001 Honda Civic Type R, the 1997/1999 Mitsubishi FTO GP Version R, the 2003 Pontiac Vibe GT (yes, a crossover), the 2002 Toyota MR-S V Edition, and the 1998 Toyota Altezza RS200/Lexus IS 200 (J) twins (the fastest FR cars) were the other cars to get under 1'25.6. Given the single-lap 1999 MR2 experience described above, I suspect the 2002 Toyota MR2/MR-S twins would also be in this range.

The 2002 MR2/MR-S twins had, except for the lack of full 180s in the 2002 MR-S and a bit more control of both, the same experience as the 1999 MR2/MR-S twins. Again, the MR2 comes far more recommended the MR-S, even though the difference in times is much closer.

With that said, there are more than a few cars that, in theory, can hold their own in all 3 Cups as they can reach at least 405 PP with nothing more than an oil change. Partly because I have become intrigued in the possibility of running a single car, but mostly because I haven't done testing on the Amateur/Novice Cup tracks outside of the 1997 Civic Type R, all I can say is if you plan on going this route, you had best have been testing the last week.

The "super-cheap" route (i.e. starter cars under $16,000)

Since there are so few cars that can, even in great hands, credibly run all three series, the odds are to be competitive in all 3 series, most people will be looking at two cars. I've previously touched on most of the starter cars that can run both the Sunday and Amateur Cups. That route would require finding a car that can win or place highly at multiple Novice Cup races that would cost no more than the maximum "regular" winnings of $36,000 possible there, and I haven't done the testing required to see what cars can do that yet.

There is a second 2-car route - buying a cheap car for the Sunday Cup and a more-capable car for the rest of the series. Again, that will likely require some good racing because one would need to leave the Sunday Cup with more than the $20,000 starting credit, and ideally with at least $25,000, to get something that can credibly run the last 2 Cups.

The 1990 Honda CR-X ($15,470) is actually a contender for both 2-car routes; it turned GVE at 1'24.699, and with an oil change, it can get to 389 PP/165 hp. The 1982 Toyota Corolla Levin/Sprinter Trueno GT-Apex ($15,360; the Corolla is mentioned above and is 0.13 seconds faster than the Sprinter) and the 1997 Eagle Talon Esi ($15,740) all clocked in under 1'26.0. The true budget-buster, at least among the cars I tested, is the 1970 Honda 1300 Coupe 9 S ($12,800), which lapped GVE at a respectable 1'27.707 and drives a lot more lively than an economy car older than me should.

Untested cars that, based on power and weight stats, might work as a super-cheap starter car include the 1999 Hyundai Tiburon Turbulence ($14,080), 1988 Nissan Silvia Q's ($15,560), 1988 Nissan EXA (though that is an ugly car at $14,810), 1983 Honda Civic 1500 ($11,890), and the 2000 Toyota Vitz/Yaris RS 1.5 ($14,530).

A note about "twins"

As long as Gran Turismo has been around, there have been multiple copies of essentially the same car. A lot of the time, the differences, if they exist, are slight enough to not really matter. Sometimes, however, there are very real differences, as illustrated by the MR2/MR-S twins, where a difference in spring rates is enough to make one car fast and the other undrivable. Another example is the freshly-minted premium Eunos Roadsters versus their non-premium MX-5/Miata counterparts. In short, it pays to look for those differences.
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Now you tell me...I bought the ugly twin to the MRS....was very ****ey as thr brits would say....it was hard to tell who had who by what....:eek:
 
Nail-27
Now you tell me...I bought the ugly twin to the MRS....was very ****ey as thr brits would say....it was hard to tell who had who by what....:eek:
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Ned, you need to calm down. The language... :lol:

Well I'm using the Neon as it appears to be unused by anyone else. :D
 
So, just so I understand for sure, you have to get laps ABOVE the limits, not under them?

For example, at Brands Hatch Indy for the Amateur Cup, the limit is 59 seconds. If you get 59.001 or higher, it's good, but 58.999 and lower is no good?
 
RacingOtaku86
So, just so I understand for sure, you have to get laps ABOVE the limits, not under them?

For example, at Brands Hatch Indy for the Amateur Cup, the limit is 59 seconds. If you get 59.001 or higher, it's good, but 58.999 and lower is no good?
Click to expand...
You got it.
 
I should be sleeping because I'll be on the track in about 7 hours (delayed birthday present, driving 4 laps around the Milwaukee Mile through the Rusty Wallace Racing Experience), but I think I finally found my car - the 1990 Mazda RX-7 GT-X (FC).

I know, it wasn't in my original round of testing, and it will definitely not win at Grand Valley East, but I like the premium new-car smell, the easy-to-drive RWD platform, the 213 horsepower it will have once I do the oil change for the Novice Cup, and the $24,860 it will take to buy.
 
Eggstor
I should be sleeping because I'll be on the track in about 7 hours (delayed birthday present, driving 4 laps around the Milwaukee Mile through the Rusty Wallace Racing Experience), but I think I finally found my car - the 1990 Mazda RX-7 GT-X (FC).

I know, it wasn't in my original round of testing, and it will definitely not win at Grand Valley East, but I like the premium new-car smell, the easy-to-drive RWD platform, the 213 horsepower it will have once I do the oil change for the Novice Cup, and the $24,860 it will take to buy.
Click to expand...
:bowdown:

Been waiting to see what you picked. 👍
 
Gravitron
You cannot go faster than 47sec, ie your laptimes should always be higher than 47.000. With everyone going a similar pace, anyone can win.
Click to expand...

Thank you for clarifying this. I had inferred that we had to consistently run under the posted times, and that had me quite worried. I can breathe a little bit now :D

I'm looking forward to this series, it should be a nice way to do my first races with you guys.
 
Practice room open 1472-6118-3916-1736-6789

Ran some laps in the RX-8 on all tracks and am rethinking selection. Nothing like being undecided 18 hrs before the race.


Closed. Nice practice Dude.
 
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I'm gonna run some laps in about 15 minutes

1472-6681-3415-7082-0774

Edit: Closed. Thanks for stopping by Lucas. I might need to go for 340PP at Stowe.
 
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Race Day is Here ​

Welcome to the Sunday Cup the first part of the The Novice Championship and its nice to see so many Drivers confirming for the Event, the post's on testing have been very interesting and the practice event's have been interesting with the large car selection's 👍.

A couple of note's:
  • Don't forget we are using a Standing start with the False start Check so please remember to keep your foot on the brake until the light's change.
  • Time for the races with time change will be the original room times which are Autmn Ring mini = 11:00am / progression 3 and Stowe = 08:30am / Progression 3
  • If you exceed the lap time please remember to make sure you slow for the next lap in a safe and fair manner.

As you are all aware there is a large variance in car choice for each race 👍 this could mean the car in front might have a slightly different brake point and a different corner speed please take this into account when following close, mistakes happen but please try to avoid contact at all cost and follow the OLR if a mistake is made.

Track Notes

Autumn ring:
The track is short and is very limited in overtaking, there is the main straight which is your best option unless the car in front makes a mistake that is the best spot, again please take into account the difference in cars.
Slowing if you exceed the lap time needs to be done in a safe manner, again the main straight is the best option, if you show you have slowed on the following lap it will be taken into account but please try to take into account the traffic, a safe manner is better on this track to slow a bit and will be taken into account if we need to review.

Silverstone Stowe
The first section is very easy to cut, Normal rules apply if you cut make sure you lift at the next safe available spot. Also as they could be a few cars going into the first section at the start of the race this area could be used to avoid contact but please give the position(s) back at the next safe spot.
The replay will be watched to check for cutting.
If you have exceeded the lap time the best time to slow a bit is the back straight again please do it in a safe manner for other drivers, getting offline on the straight is the best option.

Grand Valley East
Again if you need to slow if you exceeded the lap time please do in a safe manner the main straight is a great place of the racing line,there is other spots but please do not impede other drivers this goes for all tracks as well.

Capped Lap Time Rule's
  • If you exceed the capped lap time's in the race and qualifying which are included in all the Novice championship race's you will receive a 10 second Penalty and 1000 cr fine every time you exceed it.
  • As these are early events you can avoid a penalty by making sure your next lap is around 2 seconds or more slower in the race, please make a mental note of the lap Number as it's your responsibility to provide the lap number.
  • Please note You cannot avoid a penalty from qualifying quicker than the capped lap time.
I know there is a few notes above but they are there to try and make it enjoyable for all involved.
Have fun as it's going to be very interesting with the various cars running very similar lap time's, so expect some close racing, keep it clean, respect the other driver and there should be some great racing around these small track's.



Thanks to all involved in setting this up and a big thanks to the participants who make it worth while to organize these events. 👍
 
*Update*: My playstation just told me "You cannot use Specify Room Number when your NAT type of Type 3". So maybe I can't race today. Or ever!! (I'm tethering via my phone - so fixing the NAT could be more difficult than usual :irked: )

How would I confirm? (At the moment I guess I'm unlikely - if I'm the 17th driver, feel free to put me out instead of splitting rooms.)

If I can get the NAT thing fixed, anything else I need to do today to confirm and take part? Do I just sign into the relevant room (which room?) at 1930GM (nearly 3 hours from now?)

Looking forward to my first race. I haven't practiced enough on Grand Valley East - I hope I can get my lap times under control?
 
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Just to make sure, at silverstone, turn 1 and 2, we can "cut" if we keep 2 wheels on track right? By hitting the apex. Just want to clear that up before the race.
 
ThePDTX
Just to make sure, at silverstone, turn 1 and 2, we can "cut" if we keep 2 wheels on track right? By hitting the apex. Just want to clear that up before the race.
Click to expand...
2 wheels on/between the white lines is legal. 3 beyond the lines isn't.
 
AaronDonegal
*Update*: My playstation just told me "You cannot use Specify Room Number when your NAT type of Type 3". So maybe I can't race today. Or ever!! (I'm tethering via my phone - so fixing the NAT could be more difficult than usual :irked: )

How would I confirm? (At the moment I guess I'm unlikely - if I'm the 17th driver, feel free to put me out instead of splitting rooms.)

If I can get the NAT thing fixed, anything else I need to do today to confirm and take part? Do I just sign into the relevant room (which room?) at 1930GM (nearly 3 hours from now?)

Looking forward to my first race. I haven't practiced enough on Grand Valley East - I hope I can get my lap times under control?
Click to expand...
To confirm(or change status for any other race) fill out the event registration again.
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/thre...irst-event-sun-12th-oct.316571/#post-10051686
 
AaronDonegal
*Update*: My playstation just told me "You cannot use Specify Room Number when your NAT type of Type 3". So maybe I can't race today. Or ever!! (I'm tethering via my phone - so fixing the NAT could be more difficult than usual :irked: )

How would I confirm? (At the moment I guess I'm unlikely - if I'm the 17th driver, feel free to put me out instead of splitting rooms.)

If I can get the NAT thing fixed, anything else I need to do today to confirm and take part? Do I just sign into the relevant room (which room?) at 1930GM (nearly 3 hours from now?)
Click to expand...

The room numbers will be posted around a hour before the event so that would be 18:30 GMT the race starts at 19:30 GMT so you need to be in the room at least 10 minutes before hand so that we can check for invisible drivers and to make sure everyone's connection is fine, so the earlier people join the rooms the better.
 
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