GTRA | RSeat WSGTC S3 | Round 4 | Nürburgring GP/F | German GT

[NEPALII]

Some of these are nice ideas, but they're largely impractical.
Writing up a full review on an incident, what happened, and how what conclusion was made? There's already been 60 reports, so that's quite a bit of typing.

We also do have stewards outside the series involved, if only one. You give us a list of willing people that are known to be trustworthy and have the free time and will to do this, (that don't even take part in the series) and I highly doubt we'll turn them away.

It's a lot of work, yes, but it's the way things will be smooth, in my opinion. That's why I am suggesting to bring more people from outside the series, neutral people, to help with incidents. But like you said, it isn't easy to find people with enough free time. That is the BIG problem here, I guess. I got a fair amount of free time most of the time, but since I am a driver I dont want to make decisions on incidents as Im sure I would be having bias decisions.

 

[Wardez]

We're changing the incident review system starting next week to a way where stewards can only review incidents they were not involved in. All reports are going through PURE first, used as a filter then will be distributed to the staff for regular review. Also a big change coming next week is that we're assigning a new role. Each division (specific conference and class) will have its own pair of penalty judges or racing marshals.

We want to localize all of the work to those that raced in the actual race. We're currently training up the chosen stewards that don't have much experience in dealing with calling penalties up so we can trust them to independently make good decisions with awarding penalties. This makes it so after a race, once the reports start coming in, the marshals can just sweep through their replays looking for the incidents reported.

And we're also going to instate a 48 hour incident reporting deadline. After 48 hours, two days after the NTSC race on Monday, no more incident reports will be accepted. Remember we will only investigate incidents reported by the drivers. So far we haven't gotten anything for the GT500 NTSC race for example. We need the drivers to be diligent.

Expect a more thorough outline of the tweaked system in a few days.

 

[CSLACR]

It's a lot of work, yes, but it's the way things will be smooth, in my opinion. That's why I am suggesting to bring more people from outside the series, neutral people, to help with incidents. But like you said, it isn't easy to find people with enough free time. That is the BIG problem here, I guess. I got a fair amount of free time most of the time, but since I am a driver I dont want to make decisions on incidents as Im sure I would be having bias decisions.

Here's a way to smooth things out that doesn't require any additional time:
Drivers follow the rules, and be respectful of others.

The way to go when drivers ignore the rules 6 weeks in a row without any visible regard to continued penalties? Suspensions, and potentially, banishment.

It's starting to appear inevitable.

 

[CSLACR]

We're changing the incident review system starting next week to a way where stewards can only review incidents they were not involved in. All reports are going through PURE first, used as a filter then will be distributed to the staff for regular review. Also a big change coming next week is that we're assigning a new role. Each division (specific conference and class) will have its own pair of penalty judges or racing marshals.

We want to localize all of the work to those that raced in the actual race. We're currently training up the chosen stewards that don't have much experience in dealing with calling penalties up so we can trust them to independently make good decisions with awarding penalties. This makes it so after a race, once the reports start coming in, the marshals can just sweep through their replays looking for the incidents reported.

And we're also going to instate a 48 hour incident reporting deadline. After 48 hours, two days after the NTSC race on Monday, no more incident reports will be accepted. Remember we will only investigate incidents reported by the drivers. So far we haven't gotten anything for the GT500 NTSC race for example. We need the drivers to be diligent.

Expect a more thorough outline of the tweaked system in a few days.

Of course if we happen to stumble across an incident not reported while reviewing, drivers are still subject to penalty.
Just so people know, cutting while nobody can see is not going to slip through, unless you get really really lucky.

 

[Wardez]

I wanted to outline a few things we should definitely always look for as marshals and things we simply should not.

What marshals will do is only go through the replay to confirm things they saw on track, not look for new incidents to report. They should only investigate things they saw happen on track while racing, heard about in the post race text chat or that was reported in the form. They should never go looking for penalties to hand out unless they happen to catch extremely bad offences. But if the steward sees something they didn't hear about before while checking through the replay like a car punting another car off track, they should not act on it. If those two drivers simply aren't interested enough to report, we will leave them be as a sort of self-serving penalty for them.
Track cutting is also something that should only be looked into unless someone was suspected of doing so or they were reported by someone for it.

I want to avoid the job of going through every one's race lap-for-lap as we did at Nurburgring. So if the marshal counts someone cutting the track or going wide more than something like 5 times then we simply give them the penalty, no more counting after that. Other than that, unless you catch someone doing something like cutting across the grass to shortcut the chicane at Nurb., for example, that would count as an extremely bad offence and they will simply be disqualified.

These are the only things a marshal should go through the replay to confirm every time:
reported incidents, tire regulation (checking to make sure every one used the right tire sets), and fastest lap confirmation.

 

[CSLACR]

I wanted to outline a few things we should definitely always look for as marshals and things we simply should not.

What marshals will do is only go through the replay to confirm things they saw on track, not look for new incidents to report. They should only investigate things they saw happen on track while racing, heard about in the post race text chat or that was reported in the form. They should never go looking for penalties to hand out unless they happen to catch extremely bad offences. But if the steward sees something they didn't hear about before while checking through the replay like a car punting another car off track, they should not act on it. If those two drivers simply aren't interested enough to report, we will leave them be as a sort of self-serving penalty for them.
Track cutting is also something that should only be looked into unless someone was suspected of doing so or they were reported by someone for it.

I want to avoid the job of going through every one's race lap-for-lap as we did at Nurburgring. So if the marshal counts someone cutting the track or going wide more than something like 5 times then we simply give them the penalty, no more counting after that. Other than that, unless you catch someone doing something like cutting across the grass to shortcut the chicane at Nurb., for example, that would count as an extremely bad offence and they will simply be disqualified.

These are the only things a marshal should go through the replay to confirm every time:
reported incidents, tire regulation (checking to make sure every one used the right tire sets), and fastest lap confirmation.

I agree with your principles, but after what I've seen and heard, I simply don't trust telling some of the drivers "hey, you won't be getting any penalties for cutting track unless a driver catches it, we'll turn a blind eye".

I would never suggest that we search each and every lap run, that would be ridiculous, but if we see it and it's bad, why not do something about it?

 

[NEPALII]

I agree with your principles, but after what I've seen and heard, I simply don't trust telling some of the drivers "hey, you won't be getting any penalties for cutting track unless a driver catches it, we'll turn a blind eye".

I would never suggest that we search each and every lap run, that would be ridiculous, but if we see it and it's bad, why not do something about it?

Exactly. I mean if it isn't seen and nothing is done about it, chances are that driver will do the samething next race.

 

[Wardez]

No it's not that. We're trying to reduce the workload that stewards have and make it so it doesn't take forever to get through reviewing races. We have to lean on the drivers to report eachother and I'm constantly trying to put more emphasis on. On a fundamental level I'm trying to avoid the situation where the only things reported are by stewards themselves. I'm saying that yes, if you see it while you're reviewing the replays for reported incidents then you can report it of course just don't look for things to report. Even if it's a collision between two people, like I said - if they don't care enough to report it themselves then they aren't taking it seriously enough and we should not help them.

 

[CSLACR]

No it's not that. We're trying to reduce the workload that stewards have and make it so it doesn't take forever to get through reviewing races. We have to lean on the drivers to report eachother and I'm constantly trying to put more emphasis on. On a fundamental level I'm trying to avoid the situation where the only things reported are by stewards themselves. I'm saying that yes, if you see it while you're reviewing the replays for reported incidents then you can report it of course just don't look for things to report. Even if it's a collision between two people, like I said - if they don't care enough to report it themselves then they aren't taking it seriously enough and we should not help them.

Then yes, of course, not about to start doing all that.

If someone wants it reviewed, they'll figure out what lap it happened and report it. I/We only care if the drivers involved care about an incident that happened.

FTW, I watched a large chunk of the NTSC Nurb race today.

 

[Sail IC]

Interesting discussion.

I really like Redreevos two posts on page 22. You're spot on and I agree to every word (saves a lot of typing and reading).

I'm used to race in a league where we really only had one rule ..... the what we called "the Gentlemans rule". If you do a mistake (it happens to all of us), make sure you don't benefit from it. Examples:

When Stretchy touched another car, he let him repass. Case closed.

When GV27 hit my car, he stayed way back and raced a lousy race after that. Apologized afterwards. Case closed.

The problems with aiming for a watertight regulation with tons of rules, in the same way it removes the sportmanship spirit and the individual aim to do the right thing.

With a penalty discussion often comes hard feelings and people lose motivation and some might even quit. In my opinion, rather than trying to make watertight rules that by definition will be very complex, we should aim for simpler rules and focus on sportmanship.

Hats off to all the organizers. Really appreciate all the work you're putting into this.

 

[Wardez]

Yes John, that's what it comes down to. Emphasizing sportsman ship.

Your point about people simply making it better during the race is exactly what we want. If you punt someone off, just wait up for them to re-pass. Then it turns into a racing incident and it's ok!

You only get a penalty, really, if you punt someone off then just continue on like nothing happened!

So, drivers, please, just keep this in mind and it'll make things so much more smooth.

 

[twistedfirework]

I am of the opinion that should a steward see something on a replay that goes against the rules of the series, they should penalise it whether it was reported or not.

I would even go a step further and say that on certain tracks all drivers will be checked for track contact. For example at monza.

 

[Andil]

For contact between cars, I think you should leave it down to the drivers to report it. Sometimes damage might be inflicted but it might be as a result of racing closely together - maybe it was just a racing incident and both parties feel it was 50/50 - it should stay that way. I'd hate to see someone get a penalty if the drivers involved weren't fussed about the incident. Just wanted to make that quick point!

 

[twistedfirework]

For contact between cars, I think you should leave it down to the drivers to report it. Sometimes damage might be inflicted but it might be as a result of racing closely together - maybe it was just a racing incident and both parties feel it was 50/50 - it should stay that way. I'd hate to see someone get a penalty if the drivers involved weren't fussed about the incident. Just wanted to make that quick point!

True. This makes perfect sense, I was thinking more along the lines of shortcut penaltys.

 

[Paginas1]

right this is just turning into a debate so could be please move it over to the WSGTC main thread.

this race has finished results for PAL are final and that's it.

Lets look forward to the next race

 

[MONSTAR-1]

right this is just turning into a debate so could be please move it over to the WSGTC main thread.

this race has finished results for PAL are final and that's it.

Lets look forward to the next race

Well the results from the reports need to be post and the points table readjusted if people were penalized.