Guns

[EvanJamesLee]

In my opinion, gun control takes away more from good and honest people than it does to the idiots who cause crimes.

Criminals don't turn in their sawed off shotguns and fully automatic assault rifles simply because laws tells them to. Only law abiding citizens will do this. The same applies to more gun control. Good people will abide the new laws while criminals will not. I support loose control as in needing a license, being a citizen and over the age of 18.

I realize that guns take part in many crimes but it is who pulls the trigger that is the problem. We should not punish the entire world because an imbecile decided to use a gun incorrectly. I think we should educate the world about weapons instead of making them a taboo. With more education comes more understanding and less crime.

Laws cannot simply make guns go away. There are hundreds of thousands of firearms in the world. With the amount we currently have, trying to hide them under a rug is foolish to me. Knowledge is the only way to decrease gun related crimes.


This is just my opinion and I am simply giving what I believe.

 

[LeMansAid]

We should not punish the entire world because an imbecile decided to use a gun incorrectly. I think we should educate the world about weapons instead of making them a taboo. With more education comes more understanding and less crime.

Laws cannot simply make guns go away. There are hundreds of thousands of firearms in the world. With the amount we currently have, trying to hide them under a rug is foolish to me. Knowledge is the only way to decrease gun related crimes.

Actually, a person with nefarious intent is usually going to be more dangerous using a gun correctly.

What sort of "knowledge" are you thinking of?

 

[FoolKiller]

Check it out, an Illinois school workbook is redefining the 2nd Amendment.
http://libertycrier.com/illinois-school-workbook-rewrites-2nd-amendment

A workbook given to Illinois middle schoolers redefines the Second Amendment. The workbook entry was pointed out by the father of a seventh-grader in Springfield, and posted to a Facebook page named Illinois Gun Owners Rights.

Instead of teaching the Constitution’s text, which states, “A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed,” the school district replaced that with its own interpretation.

“This amendment states that people have the right to certain weapons, providing that they register them and they have not been in prison. The founding fathers included this amendment to prevent the United States from acting like the British who had tried to take weapons away from the colonists,” the workbook stated.

The school’s superintendent, Bob Hill, defended the wording, arguing that it reflects the reality of the Second Amendment “in the context of 2014.” Nevertheless, parents were outraged at the school’s decision, with the teacher and the head of the history department agreeing with them that the lesson should be changed.

Good automatons don't question the teachers. They blindly accept everything they are told.


See, political brainwashing is like cigarettes, you got to get them while they're young. Then they don't question the status quo.

 

[EvanJamesLee]

Actually, a person with nefarious intent is usually going to be more dangerous using a gun correctly.

What sort of "knowledge" are you thinking of?

Basic gun safety. In High school, they would teach stuff like turning the safety on and other basic guidelines like not putting your finger on the trigger or pressing the grip safety. As for younger children in Elementary school, they need to find a better way of getting the kids to tell an adult. What they're teaching now isn't good enough.

I believe people should have a license/permit or be under the supervision of somebody with one in order to learn how to actually operate a gun.

 

[Zenith]

Actually, a person with nefarious intent is usually going to be more dangerous using a gun correctly.

What sort of "knowledge" are you thinking of?

I disagree with Evan's point, but I'll comment on this.

Knowledge would decrease gun-related deaths. There are thousands of people killed every year due to improper treatment of firearms.

People with nefarious intents usually (but not always) take the time to learn to use their weapons anyways, so I don't see widespread knowledge being a problem.

 

[FoolKiller]

I don't see widespread knowledge being a problem.

Keep the people dumb and uninformed. That is how you calm the masses and save the status quo.

I personally believe the anti-gun crowd in the US doesn't promote gun safety courses because it helps their cause every time some five-year-old kid gets hold of a weapon and it makes the news. The more tragedies there are the more tragedies you can take advantage of.

 

[LeMansAid]

Knowledge is the only way to decrease gun related crimes.

There's still no answer on how this concept works.

I personally believe the anti-gun crowd in the US doesn't promote gun safety courses because it helps their cause every time some five-year-old kid gets hold of a weapon and it makes the news. The more tragedies there are the more tragedies you can take advantage of.

I wouldn't doubt it. I was talking with an ex-smoker recently about the way that anti-smoking campaigns seem to be structured in a way that means that it looks like they're selling the quit message, when they're actually trying to set people up for failure.

 

[EvanJamesLee]

There's still no answer on how this concept works.

The answer is clear.

If we get people to learn what not to do with a gun, less mistakes will happen.

There have been plenty of incidents where children and even adults have shot others because of a lack of basic gun safety. I know this because my Elementary school had a depthless gun safety program and my High School doesn't even talk about it. All we got was a Police officer that came in one day and showed us some short video which didn't make its point clear.

This is unacceptable for today's standards. We need to educate society about guns or else history will simply repeat itself and more people will die for unnecessary reasons.

A gun should be treated like a hot stove to kids. When used properly, they can be used for good and productive proposes. When used improperly, they cause pain and suffering. If taught correctly, this mindset will continue into adulthood and decrease gun related deaths.

 

[a6m5]

I get the impression that you two have two different things in mind. LeMans seems to be thinking of proper criminals with malicious intent, and Evan seems to be talking more about accidental, or careless handling of firearms(chargeable offense at times). Just my impression.

Keep the people dumb and uninformed. That is how you calm the masses and save the status quo.

I personally believe the anti-gun crowd in the US doesn't promote gun safety courses because it helps their cause every time some five-year-old kid gets hold of a weapon and it makes the news. The more tragedies there are the more tragedies you can take advantage of.

I almost made a face at your post, then I thought of Yee.

 

[Zenith]

Crimes and accidents are different things with different causes. I can't see how educating the masses about safe firearm handling will decrease gun-related crimes.

 

[ExigeEvan]

Crimes and accidents are different things with different causes. I can't see how educating the masses about safe firearm handling will decrease gun-related crimes.

Certainly not in all instances. An accidental discharge in a public place is still a crime.

 

[LeMansAid]

I get the impression that you two have two different things in mind. LeMans seems to be thinking of proper criminals with malicious intent, and Evan seems to be talking more about accidental, or careless handling of firearms(chargeable offense at times). Just my impression.

I think you might be right. The words seemed pretty clear to me though.

There have been plenty of incidents where children and even adults have shot others because of a lack of basic gun safety. I know this because my Elementary school had a depthless gun safety program and my High School doesn't even talk about it. All we got was a Police officer that came in one day and showed us some short video which didn't make its point clear.

This is unacceptable for today's standards. We need to educate society about guns or else history will simply repeat itself and more people will die for unnecessary reasons.

Do it on your own time if you want a kid to learn about gun safety. Having any gun related education in schools is only going to have a polarising effect anyway. People should have the right to have nothing to do with guns. Shove it in their, and their kids' faces, and you'll naturally get that polarisation.

A genuine interest in guns should be enough of an impetus to seek learning outside of school. Win/win if you ask me. You get the tailored and specific teaching to interested parties, without the whining of the anti crowd.

 

[Danoff]

Certainly not in all instances. An accidental discharge in a public place is still a crime.

...and that's not what people are talking about when they say "gun crime".

 

[JohnnyJohnson]

Do it on your own time if you want a kid to learn about gun safety. Having any gun related education in schools is only going to have a polarising effect anyway. People should have the right to have nothing to do with guns.

I can understand that people may not want anything to do with guns but there are millions of them out in the world. A kid with no education about safety can ruin both his/her life and the lives of the victim's family in a split second. This has happened plenty of times and it should be a wake up call to us.

People should not die because somebody else didn't know any better and shot them. I think education can reduce these deaths greatly if done properly.

 

[LeMansAid]

We learn how to drive a car, and outside of school. Why should we not actually learn (and not merely apply for a license) how to properly use a gun, using similar methods?

 

[Zenith]

Certainly not in all instances. An accidental discharge in a public place is still a crime.

Technically yes, but I think EJL was referring to crimes with malicious intent.

We learn how to drive a car, and outside of school. Why should we not actually learn (and not merely apply for a license) how to properly use a gun, using similar methods?

Unlike driving and firearms handling, sex education is often taught in schools. People have the ability/right to go through life without using any of the information taught in those classes, many do. American schools teach all kinds of subjects that they shouldn't.

A large percentage of firearms related accidents are children that are too young to understand the power of a firearm. It makes sense to me that it should be the responsibility of the parent to teach their child proper firearms safety and/or securely keep the firearm where the child cannot access it. The first option seems like the more effective one.

 

[LeMansAid]

Technically yes, but I think EJL was referring to crimes with malicious intent.

That's how I took it. But the followup posts suggest otherwise.

Unlike driving and firearms handling, sex education is often taught in schools. People have the ability/right to go through life without using any of the information taught in those classes, many do. American schools teach all kinds of subjects that they shouldn't.

Hmmm, sex education.... we're kind of born with those "tools" though. If we were born with gun-like hands I'd be all for education in schools in respect to our.. cough... hand guns.

A large percentage of firearms related accidents are children that are too young to understand the power of a firearm. It makes sense to me that it should be the responsibility of the parent to teach their child proper firearms safety and/or securely keep the firearm where the child cannot access it. The first option seems like the more effective one.

I'd be thinking the latter until they show an interest (if ever). The former once an interest is shown.

 

[Zenith]

Hmmm, sex education.... we're kind born with those "tools" though. If we were born with gun-like hands I'd be all for education in schools in respect to our.. cough... hand guns.

Hue hue hue hue.

I'd be thinking the latter until they show an interest (if ever). The former once an interest is shown.

At that point we're getting into parenting advice instead of government and school policy. I know the most common advice given to young children is to show them the gun and simply tell them that they should never touch it if they see it out. If the child shows interest then general firearm handling skills are taught.

In any case, I don't intend to delve too deep into How to Raise a Child Around Guns. My opinion in this discussion is that I don't think that schools should be teaching firearm safety.

 

[Agent_47]

We learn how to drive a car, and outside of school. Why should we not actually learn (and not merely apply for a license) how to properly use a gun, using similar methods?

Because the right to keep and bear arms is specifically protected within the constitution.

 

[Badasp5.0]

I personally believe the anti-gun crowd in the US doesn't promote gun safety courses because it helps their cause every time some five-year-old kid gets hold of a weapon and it makes the news. The more tragedies there are the more tragedies you can take advantage of.

I remember in the late '90s early '00s the NRA had a gun safety program aimed at kids that just told kids not to play with guns and to tell an adult when you find one. The media went into attack mode and was running stories about the NRA putting kids in danger and "selling" guns to kids.

 

[Zenith]

Because the right to keep and bear arms is specifically protected within the constitution.

So? Not using school to teach about firearm handling does not mean that anyone is infringing that right. People have the right to not take advantage of every right they have, that's why they're rights, not obligations.

 

[Danoff]

We learn how to drive a car, and outside of school. Why should we not actually learn (and not merely apply for a license) how to properly use a gun, using similar methods?

In some states to receive a handgun license you have to pass a competency test... not concealed carry, just handgun ownership.

 

[LeMansAid]

In some states to receive a handgun license you have to pass a competency test... not concealed carry, just handgun ownership.

Does that equal the infringement of a right to you? Going further, does even having to register a gun infringe? DIY guns? If they aren't allowed, is that an infringement?

All serious questions. If it's easier to point me to where you know these have been addressed before, feel free.

 

[Danoff]

Does that equal the infringement of a right to you?

Legal or objective? It's an infringement of human rights for sure, whether it's an infringement of the written constitution depends on just how your parse it.

Going further, does even having to register a gun infringe? DIY guns? If they aren't allowed, is that an infringement?

All serious questions. If it's easier to point me to where you know these have been addressed before, feel free.

See above.

 

[Agent_47]

So? Not using school to teach about firearm handling does not mean that anyone is infringing that right. People have the right to not take advantage of every right they have, that's why they're rights, not obligations.

Read your post again. You are saying that if we learn how to drive and apply for a license to drive a car, why should the same not apply to owning a gun?

Therein lies the problem. Driving a car on a public street is not a constitutional right protected in the Bill of Rights. Having a firearm IS.

Of course, if we were talking about showing ID to vote, I'm sure you'd have a huge problem with that since it's an impediment to people being able to vote.

 

[Agent_47]

Does that equal the infringement of a right to you? Going further, does even having to register a gun infringe? DIY guns? If they aren't allowed, is that an infringement?

All serious questions. If it's easier to point me to where you know these have been addressed before, feel free.

Yes these DO infringe. But the reason DIY guns are illegal is because they circumvent the Federal background check process. I don't agree with Federal background checks either since they don't stop criminals from acquiring guns anyway. Plus the Second Amendment doesn't say anything about going through background checks - in fact - the constitution says you can't impede people from practicing their constitutional rights.

 

[Danoff]

Yes these DO infringe. But the reason DIY guns are illegal is because they circumvent the Federal background check process. I don't agree with Federal background checks either since they don't stop criminals from acquiring guns anyway. Plus the Second Amendment doesn't say anything about going through background checks - in fact - the constitution says you can't impede people from practicing their constitutional rights.

Background checks are not a violation of the second amendment. You lose some of your rights when you violate those of others. Convicted felons no longer have 2nd amendment rights, and it makes sense to verify that the person obtaining the firearm is not a convicted felon.

 

[Zenith]

Read your post again. You are saying that if we learn how to drive and apply for a license to drive a car, why should the same not apply to owning a gun?

No I did not. Take this craptastic reasoning somewhere else.

LeMansAid specifically pointed out in his post that he was referring to learning, not applying for a license.

Therein lies the problem. Driving a car on a public street is not a constitutional right protected in the Bill of Rights. Having a firearm IS.

And I never said it wasn't.

Of course, if we were talking about showing ID to vote, I'm sure you'd have a huge problem with that since it's an impediment to people being able to vote.

 

[Enemem]

They have gun control at Fort Hood. Unbelievable.

A number of people here, seem to think that centralising power is what is best for all of us. Are you paranoid enough to think, that you yourself are unable, to responsibly use a gun? Because that's what you are saying. They are your rights that you are giving away.

 

[Agent_47]

The solution is to make it easier for people to protect themselves. Stop restricting peoples' ability to do this through gun-free zones and more gun controls.