Guns
- Thread starter Talentless
- 5,167 comments
- 248,293 views
- 24,553
- Frankfort, KY
- GTP_FoolKiller
- FoolKiller1979
Yes, I pointed at violence as a whole because you are saying we accept "violence as a norm." To accuse me of matching the data pool to your definition as playing the statistics game is weird. I met your parameters.
But we can play the statistics game:
I thought you were talking about violence in general. This is narrowing the field of data down to one tiny segment of violence. Now who is playing the statistics game?
The link you gave even says mass killings are a small part of homicides, which are decreasing.
I'm not saying an increase in a specific form of violence isn't important, but it cannot be indicative of violence as a whole. It is important, and narrowing the scope helps to find the source of the problem. You can't attribute any correlation to this tiny segment to all violence though. It doesn't work like that.
It's like saying chocolate can kill dogs so all mammals should never have chocolate.
And in this case, we still don't have the trigger variable narrowed down to just one.
Now compare that to the number of gun laws and the support for gun rights that they also quote. It isn't the laws creating the trend.
It shouldn't.
- 28,470
- Windsor, Ontario, Canada
- Johnnypenso
To add some further statistic fuel to the fire, the Washington Post ran an article today on this very subject of guns and murder. We’ve had a massive decline in gun violence in the United States
It also begs the inference that if the rate of mass shootings is on the rise in the U.S. while at the same time the overall gun homicide rate is falling, the rate of homicide in one on one situations must be on an even more dramatic decline.
While at the same time the number of guns in circulation has increased dramatically over the same period:
Source
It also begs the inference that if the rate of mass shootings is on the rise in the U.S. while at the same time the overall gun homicide rate is falling, the rate of homicide in one on one situations must be on an even more dramatic decline.
- 20,681
- TenEightyOne
- TenEightyOne
If you put an @ in front of our names then we get tagged+notified
I don't have the stats to hand so my guess is that the age range is 16-25, that the race(s) are of African heritage and that the locations are inner city or other low income high density dwelling areas.
What point will you make from that, I wonder?
- 1,629
- Texas
- RC45
- RC45
a) not interested in tagging you or anyone else. Not my job to spoon feed you.If you put an @ in front of our names then we get tagged+notified
I don't have the stats to hand so my guess is that the age range is 16-25, that the race(s) are of African heritage and that the locations are inner city or other low income high density dwelling areas.
What point will you make from that, I wonder?
b) It is you that needs to be able to make the point.
Willful ignorance does not negate facts.
- 20,681
- TenEightyOne
- TenEightyOne
- 1,629
- Texas
- RC45
- RC45
I didn't say you were definitely willfully ignorant? And you asked the question, I answered it. I guess we're done then
Your childish surely tripe response not with standing, be assured your willful ignorance of the topics at hand do not negate the facts.
- 20,681
- TenEightyOne
- TenEightyOne
- 7,625
- Exorcet
- OE Exorcet
Interesting correlation and one I wasn't aware of, but if the migration of people into the country was the cause or one of the causes in the spike in violence, wouldn't it suggest that the gun ban only had a small influence at best? In other words the actions of people in the country mattered more than the guns.
Perhaps I misunderstood. You saying that Europe has a different idea of freedom and saying that the European idea is something along the lines of a place where guns aren't needed implies that the US is the opposite. I'd argue not. The US idea of freedom and happiness involves living in a world where you don't need to defend yourself I'm sure. This doesn't mean that you can't have guns, etc anyway though.
As for the point you were replying to, preparing yourself for risk doesn't mean you think you're at risk. Minus the bias and one sided wording, RC45's question is valid. It doesn't imply that you are in constant danger, it only truthfully admits that there is a chance that you can be in danger and in those cases. Guns can be useful in those cases, rare as they might be.
I myself try to look out for threats whenever I can even if I don't think I'm in danger. I look up phone numbers and email address I don't recognize to check for legitimacy. Physical mail from addresses I don't know I flag as suspicious, who knows if there is anthrax inside or something? When I'm driving I do not place myself near other cars if I can avoid it. I don't want people in my blind spots and who knows how well they can drive. When I'm out alone or in a crowded place I've looked for areas that seem dangerous and think of ways I can avoid putting myself at risk should I be attacked, or something. It takes practically zero effort on my part and in the unlikely event that something does happen, I might end up safer for it.
- 17,353
- United Kingdom
Yeah, I'd probably agree with that. Whether we're better off for it now or not, would be open to speculation. My personal feeling is that we probably are.
As an open question, when people from the US visit the UK, are thay as aware of the absence of guns, as we are the presence of guns in the US? And I don't mean knowing the laws, I mean not seeing guns on the Police, in shops, on the streets etc.
- 7,625
- Exorcet
- OE Exorcet
To be honest, you don't necessarily see guns in the US. I've been in states with anywhere from 10-50% ownership rates and they look the same essentially. 99% of the time you see a gun, it's one carried by an officer. So in that regard, many Americans would not be surprised to see no guns in the UK. What they might notice is the lack of guns carried by police. The second, and this is a far second, would be the lack of gun shops if one was looking for a gun. I don't know how common they are in the UK, but I imagine it's more similar to north states than the ones in the south. Up north you might have to go on a trip to find a gun store. Down south they're more numerous and visible. Guns are very regional in the US.
So I take it to mean you were speaking in general and not the US? In that case, I read too much into what you said. It was my mistake, sorry.
- 28,470
- Windsor, Ontario, Canada
- Johnnypenso
- 2,541
- Netherlands
- Denur; GTP_Denur
Nope
- 22,551
- Arizona
- HamiltonMP427
Well what society is it where everyone walks around with a gun? I mean I'm quite sure you don't mean a literal everyone but rather a large portion of the populous. Point is where is such a place if it did/does exist? And if you answer the U.S. then the the reply Penso gave basically writes itself as to why someone might say what he just did.
- 8,452
- Rockay City
Currently none in the civilized world. But it's what some people in here are proposing as the solution to gun-related killing: equip everyone with a gun. Can't speak for @Denur of course, but I guess that's what he was referencing.
- 28,470
- Windsor, Ontario, Canada
- Johnnypenso
- 2,360
- Ventura, California
"Arming everyone" keeps coming up. Nobody is proposing that. One thing to consider, mass shooters usually either shoot themselves or get shot by the police.... with guns. Average response times by Law Enforcement can be several minutes. I'm not knocking police in any way but to just expect them to be there when you need them is very illogical. What people like RC45 are saying is, most people cannot simply arm themselves because of laws preventing them from doing so. If you don't feel comfortable arming yourself, by all means don't. People should be given the opportunity to do so without breaking laws. Most gun owners will abide by the rule of law. Even if you are not Rambo, wouldn't you like the freedom to decide to carry a tool that may save your own life or possibly others? Conceal permits in the US are state by state. You can't just simply apply for one and get it without some sort of formal training, proof of profincy etc. There are only a few states that do not require permits. AZ, AK and I belive VT. In California for example, you will likely not even be concidered for it. No opportunity to possibly turn the tables on an assailant. Ca is one of the most unfriendly states for law abiding gun owners. The laws aren't working. There is over 20,000 laws regarding firearms Federally and more state by state. They simply do not work.
The politicians play a game and rely on the ignorance of the masses. If there was an outright ban in the US, the government would sell them to other countries for US interests. Arming rebals, profit and the like. They all preach about the tool, but have an entourage of armed guards to protect them. The US is full of qualified people who will never have an opportunity for their own protection. My stance is bias and I'm sure you can tell. I grew up with guns in the home. Never used them offensively. I joined the military at 18, realized the value of having something that's job was to protect my life. Respected it. It's a great responsibility. There are millions like me. There are a few that will carry out these acts. 200,000,000+ firearms in the US did not kill anyone today.
The politicians play a game and rely on the ignorance of the masses. If there was an outright ban in the US, the government would sell them to other countries for US interests. Arming rebals, profit and the like. They all preach about the tool, but have an entourage of armed guards to protect them. The US is full of qualified people who will never have an opportunity for their own protection. My stance is bias and I'm sure you can tell. I grew up with guns in the home. Never used them offensively. I joined the military at 18, realized the value of having something that's job was to protect my life. Respected it. It's a great responsibility. There are millions like me. There are a few that will carry out these acts. 200,000,000+ firearms in the US did not kill anyone today.
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- 2,865
- Australia
Maybe not quite then?
Unless you ultimately adjusted this stance but didn't actually state that, @RC45?
- 2,360
- Ventura, California
- 8,452
- Rockay City
Which boils down to more people carrying guns around in public spaces compared to the current situation. Perhaps 'everyone' was an exaggeration, but the point remains.
- 1,629
- Texas
- RC45
- RC45
Jesus Christ you just cant let stuff go can you. Did you keep that post as a short cut on your desktop and stare at it every day just waiting to throw it back in my face a few years later?
I know why I had you on ignore for a long time.
Here - for the "permanent record"
Rights not exercised are rights forfeited.
This is a very simple concept, perhaps not something a complex higher educated philosopher such as yourself will take the time to understand.
- 22,551
- Arizona
- HamiltonMP427
Where has this been proposed on here? I've partaken in this thread for quite some time over the past 4 years (not so much now since I rather read the continuous cycle) and I've yet to see that. Also @Denur post came across as if there are places already in existence or close to it, I feel that perhaps the extended hand you gave was just a simple way of saying that is what he meant, and surely it could have been. But the quote he claims he himself said and the orignal post paint a different picture. One where there are places where a mass majority has gun ownership and expressed, and trying to only further escalate this number of gun carrying users. Thus such a place to outsiders would feel as a prison. No where do I see this as a direct rebuke of a proposition that was never given.
- 2,993
- Brisbane
- jimipitbull
I picture it more like Grand Theft Auto with a Call of Duty mod installed and the Benny Hill theme playing in the background.
- 2,541
- Netherlands
- Denur; GTP_Denur
That was not my intention. I was referring to the fact that some people on this forum wish to be allowed to carry guns at all times. That that to them is the ultimate form of freedom. If that wish is to be granted, what I picture then is a society where it is normal to see (some) civilians walking around the street, with guns showing, doing their daily business. That is not a society I would want to live in.
- 22,551
- Arizona
- HamiltonMP427
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